Cell site wind generators

Hi guys and gals,
I used to follow this forum quite a bit a few years ago when I installed solar on a beach house I have here in Mexico. I found this forum to be very helpful.
Now Im being pressured to look into alternative energy solutions for our cell sites. I was recently contacted by a company called TechnoSpin who offer a "revolutionary next generation wind generating system".
I dont see anything different or new on this wind generator. Their website has very little techical information. I was wondering if you guys had any useful information you could offer me about this company and its product.
Thanks
Brian

Comments

  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,569 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Cell site wind generators

    here I quoteth from the "Holy Grail" "Run Away, Run Away..."

    Consider PV instead. You will have to re-think a whole lot of stuff, and maybe lookup how Google, in it's data centers, is blowing just filtered air, not chilled air, for their server cooling. Also, you will need lots of power saving features, that are not likely present.
    I don't know if there is enough good surface area to mount enough PV panels, and then there is the theft/vandal factor too.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • System2System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: Cell site wind generators

    Thanks for the quick reply mike90045,
    Our carriers will definently have to go with lots of power saving features. A typical carrier that runs its equipment in a shelter uses 20k. Using two,- three tons air conditioners is very common. Some sites have 4 carriers!
    The good news is that some carriers are going with the option of using equipment that consumes under 1k. This should make solar and wind a viable option in remote areas. Area is usually restricted to around 300m2 including the tower. We could probably dedicate up to 100m2 for PV. The top of the tower could be used for wind generation to suppliment the PV. Vandalizm-theft is a huge problem here.
    Ive seen good wind generators out there but have never heard of TechnoSpin until now. Run away sounds like good advice.
    Anyone else care to comment on them?
    Thanks,
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,569 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Cell site wind generators

    If you can find a Jacobs, use it. The one (from 40 years ago) in Antarctica is still going strong from what I hear.

    Don't put a windmill on the antenna tower, the vibration could possibly work harden and crack a lot of solder joints. Give the windmill it's own tower.

    The tallest tower will attract lighting. Count on it, and have a good plan to divert the power stroke (and all the other strokes with it) What will be the easiest to replace, windmill, antennas, or PV's ? depends on your hoisting gear I suppose.

    You will need batteries for storage, maybe 2 days , and an autostart propane genset for the cloudy days, to jam a stiff charge into the batteries. Maybe AGM's with charge controllers properly set to not EQ them.

    You may need to build a large fenced compound with 24/7 security cams, and a helo pad next to it, to snag bandits.

    Lots of things to do, think of, buy, if you have a cell company's budget.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • WindsunWindsun Solar Expert Posts: 1,164 ✭✭
    Re: Cell site wind generators
    Brian wrote: »
    Ive seen good wind generators out there...

    So have we, but not many of them are in the smaller size. All the "really" good ones are the giant commercial units.

    It is not so much that the current crop of small to medium wind generators are "bad", it is that they are nearly always over-hyped as to how much they put out. (and the TechnoSpin appears to be yet another (not so) "revolutionary" product to jump on the renewables/wind bandwagon.

    Another very common problem is that nearly everyone we talk to over-estimates how much wind they get, and how often it blows. Solar has it's downside also - mainly cost - but solar data is much more reliable and predictable than wind data for nearly all areas.

    Be afraid, be VERY afraid...
  • System2System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: Cell site wind generators

    Thanks for the feedback Windsun,
    Sounds like PV is the best option for this type of application. I was hoping quality wind generators could be a viable option to suppliment the PV.
    Mike90045,
    Our towers are design for minimum 15m2 EPA @60m. All are designed for 200 year return wind speeds. Loading and vibration shouldnt be an issue, these are heavy towers. We operate over 2,700 towers in Mexico so as you can imagine I have had to deal with ever possible problem. Lightning, floods, vandalizm, fire, hurracanes, earthquakes, ect....Our sites our walled but no helo pad at this time. If I could just get the helecoper approved in my budget....;)
    I can get the carriers to supply the correct batteries. All of them use batteries as back up power in case of power failures. A generator could also be an option to suppliment PV. Remote monitoring could be a problem.
    Any other comments on wind generators for this type of application?
    Thanks for all the support,
    Brian
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Cell site wind generators

    brian,
    am i to assume you have grid access or not? if you have grid access then this is more efficient and you can supplement with pv as much as the land can hold and you can afford. roughly assuming about 1.5 m^2 for every 200w of pv you can maximumly fit about 66 of them for about 13.2kw. this would assume them to be end to end and may not be possible depending on the mounting method you employ. if you consume 20kwh a day you won't need 13.2kw of pv anyhow because you would see quite a few hours of full sun each day. i'd recommend designing for the worst case winter insolance figures for your area, but using a figure of 3 full sun hours a day you will find you would need 20kwh/3hrs=6.67kw in pvs if you wish to run it all on solar. only supplementing one's power with some of the required power need not be that high in the numbers of pvs. if you have battery backup there for the cell it could be wired up to solar as well, but once the batteries are charged that's it, unless employing a grid-tie with battery backup inverter to send some power to the grid with less efficiency than straight grid-tie inverters. this wouldn't do your a/c units any good unless you elect to have battery backed grid-tie inverters there too for during any outages the grid-tie only (no battery backup) type inverter will just shut down due to anti-islanding requirements leaving you without power.
    do you need the a/c for the cell operations? if you do then the big power problems you seem to have are for the a/c units. any cutback on the power needs for them will help tremendously. one way is more insulation and better windows, if you have any. maybe more efficient a/c units will help here too as any watts that aren't needed and thus saved won't need to be produced. for monetary investment the conservation efforts will go farther than the pvs will and you can still use a generator for backup to this too, but gas costs are big with short storage times before it starts to gel.
    i may be confusing you some as i didn't wait to hear some of the info i asked for, but it will be somewhat big in area and costs due to the power consumption you have even if conservation methods are employed.
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,569 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Cell site wind generators
    Brian wrote: »
    Our towers are design for minimum 15m2 EPA @60m. All are designed for 200 year return wind speeds. Loading and vibration shouldnt be an issue, these are heavy towers.

    I understand they are beefy towers.
    My comment is that the rotating generator and blades, causes vibration, that the antenna towers are not designed for, and this vibration may damage internal components in the RF cable joints and inside the fiberglass radomes. It won't take the tower down, but may cause odd failures in a couple of years.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Cell site wind generators

    i don't think that will be that much of a problem mike as even antennas with the wind blowing through them have been known to set up vibrations too. i had one such antenna that did vibrate and it survived for over 15 years doing that. for the record it was about 24ft long sticking straight up and made of aluminum. it's now 14 or 15ft long and for those hams out there it resonated roughly about 17.5mhz and 50.2mhz after the break. it is now down altogether, thanks to the new landlord of the place next to me, due to the stresses it presented to my chimney. in exchange for helping me bring down that antenna with some pointing patchwork he got the use of my 40ft ladder so that he could do some needed work to his new place. my chimney started to lean from the force of the winds pushing that antenna over the years and he needed my ladder to realign and point his large main chimney that was in danger of collapsing.
  • System2System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: Cell site wind generators

    Thanks for your concern Mike. This shall be taken into account, good point.
    Niel,
    Thanks for your feedback. I remember your expert advice from years back when I follwed this forum.
    Its not confussing but maybe I wasnt clear on the application, sorry.
    This would be off grid. All power would have to be generated on site. Currently the equipment used on grid conected sites uses 20kW an hour! For an off grid site, our carriers have available equipment that consumes under 1kW an hour. Thats what we would have to go with, around 24KW a day.
    So if I followed you correctly and we use the 3 full sun hours a day then this application would require 8kw of pvs or 40, 200w panels. The off grid carrier equipment would not use a/c units, they use a small ventallation fan.

    TechnoSpin today sent me the power curve for their 2KW generator. Im no expert but it doesnt look like it could replace more then two panels.
    Can I attach it to my post? Is this allowed?
    Regards,
    Brian
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,569 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Cell site wind generators

    > TechnoSpin today sent me the power curve for their 2KW generator.
    > Im no expert but it doesnt look like it could replace more then two panels.
    > Can I attach it to my post? Is this allowed?

    If it fits, sure, or just post a link to their page with the curve, then no copyright hassles.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Cell site wind generators

    ok, i wasn't quite sure, but you straightened me out on having no grid. it would be a large setup for solar and also a large setup for the batteries if you elect to go with it, but it can be done i suppose. as to the 8kw in pvs that would be a base starting point if the 3 full sun hours is accurate and i was guessing on the 3 full sun hours only to use as an example. going with the example if that turned out to be accurate for your area, then you need to consider that stc ratings are rarely reached, but cec ratings are more accurate and they are roughly 10% more. add another 10% for charging losses and another 5-10% for other losses like resistive wire losses and inverter losses and this could up the pv requirements up to or over 10kw. pricing 10kw of pv with controllers and batteries from our host's store and you will see the expence involved in such a system. the batteries would need to supply that 24kwh of power/day and probably should be able to supply this for at least 2 days or more. this is for 2 days at 48kwh and this shouldn't deplete the batteries below 50% so it doubles again to 96kwh in battery capacity. if at a 24v system this would be 4,000ah and with a 48v battery system it would be 2,000ah. wow :cry:
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