change of plan

banjorene
banjorene Solar Expert Posts: 36
My wife just informed me we will be getting a new shed soon and I sugested we place it in a new location in our yard facing south then I could put the solar panels I have and will be getting on it's roof.
I soon hope to have 600 to 800 watts of 12 volt panels.
I am planning on getting a site evaluation just to be sure I'm doing the correct thing.
The trouble is I now have some panels on my house and I know they may not be in the best location but the distance between panel and cc is only 24 feet,
and around 4 feet between cc and batteries.There are a few tree problems at the moment but all and all things seem to work fairly well.
I already have 12 volt outlets wired into the house in one room and hope to add more for a few more lights.
I also have a 750 watt inverter that I can use for larger fixtures if need be should the power fail,
This is all wired into four 12 volt batteries ( deep Cycle ) for a total of 450 amp hours.
Now my question is if I place the panels on the shed for better output,the shed would be around 125 feet from the house and around 175 feet from the room I already have 12 volt outlets wired in.
Should I forget the 12 volt idea and run underground 12/3 wire from the shed to the house and just run what I need off an inverter or would the voltage drop be too great ???I don't think the system is large enough to grid tie and if I stay off the grid I can do this work myself and not have the hassel of all the paperwork,inspections etc.
And is it feasable to run 12 volts that distance and be able to utilize the outlets I already have wired in the house.
I know wire is not cheap but (I think) having the panels on the shed getting better sun is worth the cost if all this works out.
I know I would have to purchase a better inverter ,
Any help ???
I guess I should wait to get the site evaluation BUT I THINK I know what the answer will be and am trying to get a jump on things
Thanks
Rene

Comments

  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: change of plan

    I agree, 600W of PV is kind of thin, to configure into Grid Tie.

    You could rewire the panels to be a 100V array, and use a MPPT controller (600w/100V = 6A) which makes for a longer run with less losses and use a MPPT controller near the batteries, to down convert to your existing 12V.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • banjorene
    banjorene Solar Expert Posts: 36
    Re: change of plan

    WOO YOUR starting to loose me 100 volts with 6 amps what I was planning was
    600 watts,Twelve 50 watt panels with the ability of each producing 3 amps which would give me
    36 amps @ 12 volts this would recharge the batteries and run inverter wired to the house now I'm not sure what to do.
    In you suggestion rewire to get 100 volts 6 amps I don't understand what exactly that will do for me everything runs on 120 volts.....or is it the mppt controller that changes all that ???? Can you explain a little more use the kiss method I'm new at this stuff.
    I;m just looking for the best way to wire this all in be it 12 volts or with an inverter 110/120 volts
    Thanks
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: change of plan

    For a start, you can use the Voltage Drop calculator detailed in this thread (uses Excel or, probably works on Open Office too).

    In general, distributing 12VDC any long distances is not going to be very successful... Even a 2 volt drop, and your equipment will just stop working (and close to a 15% loss of power even if you got things to work).

    Distributing 120 VAC (or 240 VAC), a 2 volt drop is nothing (1.6% or less drop), plus 1/10 or 1/20th the current--that much less copper required to distribute.

    For example, say 800 watts at 96 VDC (8.3 amps) nominal distributed through 12 AWG wire 135' x 2 (round trip) gives you ~2.9% drop (try for less than 3% drop, below 1.5% is probably a waste of copper/money). 10 awg would be 1.8%, 8 awg would be 1.2% drop (voltage loss over 135 feet of cable run).

    So--you could reasonably run your solar panels on the shed, and run (higher voltage DC) back to the charge controller+battery bank at home--or put everything in the shed and run 120 VAC from your inverter to your home--either would work fine.

    Personally, I probably would put the inverter+battery+charge controller in your home, and the panels on the shed... Would give you a bit more flexibility in setting up your AC and DC requirements... Plus, you could always wire up the Inverter with an AC transfer switch so that if you have a power outage when the AC fails, you can have your fridge, etc., on the "emergency circuit"... Also, you can easily use your AC mains to recharge your batteries when needed (say you have times when your power is unreliable during storms--use battery when power out, get a quick recharge from mains when power is momentarily back up).

    Your last question is about a backup generator--Normally, you might want to put it out with the shed (noise, fuel, etc.)... However, if you put in a transfer switch--you will want most of that stuff right at your home and if you are going to use natural gas/propane it is probably easier to plumb that all right near the home (watching out for exhaust fumes. getting in the home).

    As aways, no one right answer, just lots of possibilities and options--some which will cost less, others that will provide more options.

    For the inverter--I would look at a true sine with AC Main+AC backup inputs (internal transfer switch--Xantrex, Outback, etc.)... You wire up a small sub-panel and make a large UPS for your home (assuming you have enough outages to make it worth while)--and for your significant other--nothing special to flip or monitor (if you are not at home--stuck at work, traveling, etc.). They also can have an internal battery charger so that you can automatically charge from AC mains or AC backup--again automagically.

    Lastly, if you get lots of long outages--I would really recommend a true battery monitor (Trimetic, or Xantrex)... The batteries you save, will be your own. And a Kill-A-Watt meter--if you don't already have one to monitor 120 VAC 15 amp maximum loads.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: change of plan

    The "MPPT" controller is the "Magic" part of the configuration that allows long runs from your solar panels to the charge controller...

    The standard PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) it, more or less, a simple switch that opens and closes (more closed, more charging current; more time open, less average charging current)... Ideally, you match the battery voltage with the panel voltage (approximately 17 volts at the panels, and 15 volts at the battery)... Any higher panel voltage does not make any more power for you at the battery (it is the current from the panel to the battery bank, with a minimum panel voltage go move current).


    With MPPT (Maximum Power Point Tracking)--the MPPT Charge controller is the DC equivalent of an AC variable transformer... It maximizes the power from the panels (PpanelIpanel*Vpanel) to the maximum power into the batteries (Pbat=Ibat*Vbat).

    So, if you put a bunch of panels in series, with a good MPPT Controller (MX 60, FM 80, etc. from Outback; or the equivalent from Xantrex)--you take the 96 volts from the series panels (maximizing voltage, minimizing current in P=I*V) to the controller--then the controller "transforms" the panel "power" into the correct voltage*current for the battery bank.

    The larger (600 watt and larger) MPPT controllers, typically have around 140 VDC as the maximum panel input voltage--so they work well... Smaller MPPT Controllers (several hundred watts or less), usually have a much lower Vmax input voltage--so it is more difficult to have panels with high Voltage/low current series wiring.

    Also--there is the issue of what voltage you wire your battery bank for... A good first estimate is if you are 1,000 watts or less of power, a 12 volt bank is OK. If you are 1,000-2,000 watts, you should be looking at a 24 volt battery bank (keeping DC bus to 100 amps or less). If you are looking at over 2,000 watts--a 48 VDC bank is recommended.

    Also, the MPPT controllers will work with 12-48 volt battery banks. Running a 48 VDC battery bank on a 60 amp controller will give you 4x the maximum array wattage the controller can manage (at no additional cost).

    Note, these are just recommendations--you can certainly make other combinations work just as well.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • banjorene
    banjorene Solar Expert Posts: 36
    Re: change of plan

    So if I were to run twelve 50 watt kyocera panels from the shed to the cc (in the shed)
    to the batteries four 12 volt 450 amp hours ( in the shed) to the inverter (in the shed )
    to the house with 8 or 10 gauge wire things should work Correct ???
    We don't get a lot of power outages and I have a small 3000 watt Generator for backup also,This way I could run 12 volt lights in the shed and 110 volts to the house .
    I did wish to run 12 volts to the house but at 135 to 165 feet of wire from the shed to the house heavey wire is needed and costly.and may not be worth the trouble to get the 12 volts to the house.
    Does this sound any where near correct ?????
  • banjorene
    banjorene Solar Expert Posts: 36
    Re: change of plan

    Or if I rewire my panels to give me 100 volts 6 amps and run this to an MPPT controller(Morning Star 12 amp??? )
    this will then be run to a cc to the batteries to an inverter to the house.
    The Batteries are 12 volt four of them wired for 450 amp hours
    This is all starting to sink in (sorry) If this is more cost effective and will charge my batteries back up the quickest then thats a great way to go
    Do I have this right?? or do I not need the cc just use the morningstar 16 mppt controller
    I know what your thinking this guy is nuts.... but like I said I'm new at this and I keep thinking the more amps put back into the batteries the faster the charge where as the more voltage put back into the batteries the faster the charge . Correct ???
    Or am I way off base
    Also if I hook my panels to give me higher voltage I have to use an MPPT controller because I'm going back to the batteries 12 volt Correct
    Thanks
    Rene
    Thanks
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: change of plan

    The SunSaver MPPT controller is too "small" for your application as given...

    1. Maximum Voc of 75 volts from the solar panels--really means a Vmp of around 35-40 volts (not the ~96+ volts we where looking at).
    2. Maximum controller output current is 15 amps which for a 12 volt battery bank means a maximum useful panel wattage of:

    15amp*15 volts (12 volt battery bank)~225 watts maximum It would take ~3 of these controllers (and 2-3x as much "copper") to wire these up... One 60-80 map Outback or Xantrex MPPT type controller would end up costing you much less overall.

    You only need "one" charge controller (MPPT OR PWM) between a set of solar panels and a set of batteries (unless you have a lot of solar panels when you will need to set up parallel sets of panels+charge controller to handle the high currents)>

    An MPPT type controller efficiently converts high voltage solar panel strings to low(er) voltage battery strings... PWM charge controllers can still work--but it will not be efficient with high voltage solar panel strings).

    -Bill

    PS:

    A properly installed, good quality, properly configure, MPPT vs PWM controller will charge the batteries just about the same speed... The advantages of the MPPT is 1. On very cold sunny days (snow on ground and colder) is that they can crank about some 15-30% more power into the batteries from the save set of Solar Panels vs a PWM controller... The second major advantage is the ability to run high voltage solar panels strings longer distances with smaller gauge wire than PWM controllers can. The third advantage for MPPT controllers is that you don't have to "match" the solar panel voltage to the battery bank voltages exactly like for a PWM controller (you can use large 100+ watt panels with "odd voltages" but good pricing on a MPPT controller--you cannot efficiently do that with a PWM controller). The last advantage is if you live in a region with large temperature swings--you find that solar panel voltage drop with heat and voltage requirements rise with cold--so if you have hot panels and cold batteries--you may not get good charging current.
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • n3qik
    n3qik Solar Expert Posts: 741 ✭✭
    Re: change of plan

    You future setup is close to what I have. I have 512 watts on my shed that is 130 feet from my charge controller. You have two chooses:

    1:Panels on shed in series (approx. 100 VDC), 10 AWG wire to a MPPT at the house to convert the 100 VDC to 12VDC for the batteries, inverter and house plugs. You save on cost of wire but double cost of charge controller.
    XW MPPT= $560.00 Plus #10 500' wire= $60.00 Total = $ 620.00

    2:Panels on shed in parallel for 12 VDC, 4 AWG wire to a PMW at the house. Wire will cost more but the charge controller will be 1/2 the cost.
    c60w/display= $260.00 Plus #4 500' wire= $400.00 Total = $ 660.00

    This is the less efficient way BUT copper doesn't go bad, can't say the same for a $$ MPPT controller.

    I choose #2. If or when the charge controller goes south, I can just by-pass it to continual to charge the batteries, plus I believe in KISS (keep it simple stupid)
  • banjorene
    banjorene Solar Expert Posts: 36
    Re: change of plan

    Why not run everything in the shed Batteries,cc,inverter and just run 12/3 underground
    to the house ??
    Rene
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: change of plan

    I agree,, why not keep the batteries in the shed. You gain a bit of saftey from leaks, fire, explosion, save a bunch on the controller or wire or both. Batteries in the shed in a good insulated box will be cooler in the summer probably, in the summer, and should be fine in the winter. Use a remote switch to turn the inverter on from in the house, controlled by a #16 wire if you want to be able to switch off the inverter.

    Sounds pretty straight forward to me.

    Tony
  • banjorene
    banjorene Solar Expert Posts: 36
    Re: change of plan

    Here"s food for thought,I came across a site that someone hooked a syatem to kind of like being off grid except
    Have the system hooked so it draws off batteries and when the batteries get low it automaticly switches back to AC while on AC the batteries charge via panels When the batteries reach full charge the system changes back to DC which runs things by inverter,
    Sounds almost like a good Idea it takes a couple relays and things like that but .....
    may be worth looking into.And I suppose it's a way of saving some money by being off grid even if it's only for a short time depending on what you run while off grid.
    Rene
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: change of plan

    Some of the Outback and Xantrex products (I believe) have very sophisticated controllers for there products where you can program decision points when to be on and off grid...

    In general, in the US, it would be difficult to save money doing this.

    Just as a rough estimate--around $0.25 for Grid Tied power (retail installed, my 3kW system--ignoring rebates and tax credits, 20-25 year assumed life, no cost of money, etc.)... And, pretty much every time I run out a simple cost estimate for off grid power, it comes out to ~$1.00 per kWhr (because of the extra "parts" and replacement of batteries every 7-20 years)...

    So--if you pull out the solar+charge controller (~$0.25 per kWhr) from an off-grid power cost of $1.00+ per kWhr--you are left with $0.75 per kWhr to pay for (mostly) batteries+wear and tear.

    Today--my highest cost (PDF of E7 Rate Plan) is $0.58 per kWhr (summer rate, noon-6pm, >900 kWhrs per month tier)...

    Even if power cost Zero (late night, my cheapest rate is $0.09 per kWhr)--you would be lucky to break anywhere near even.

    For the rest of the people, who pay around $0.08 to $0.35 per kWhr--I would really run the calculations very closely to see what your costs would be.

    Also, remember that you will need to purchase (1/80% bat-eff * 1/85% inverter eff=) 1.47x (47% more power) from the utility than you will use when running off-grid...

    Lets try some numbers... Assume a person will offset 200 kWhrs per month of power, and use pricing from our host's store.

    200 kWhrs per month or 6.67 kWhrs per day. Assume 48 VDC battery is 6x daily use (83% discharging every day, then recharge at night). Look at less expensive vs more expensive batteries. Get a nice True Sine Wave inverter that can run a microwave and coffee maker together (3.5 kW is ~$2,000)...

    1/85% invtr-eff * 6.67 kWhrs * 6/48 VDC = 0.98 kAH = 980 Amp*Hours

    Surrette 4KS-21PS 4-Volt battery
    1104 Amp Hours
    Regular price: $1,235.00
    Sale price: $1,085.00, 3/$3,180.00
    ...with an expected life of 15 years and a 10 year warranty.

    48 vdc * 1/4 vperbat * $1,060 per bat=$12,720 per 48 battery bank

    (($12,720+$2,000)*20yr/15yrlife)/ (20 years * 200 kWhrs per month * 12 months)=$0.41 per kWhr battery+inverter costs per kWhr over 20 years

    For less expensive batteries:

    Crown 395 Amp-Hour Deep Cycle Battery, 6 Volt
    $297.50, 4/$1,175.00, 8/$2,340.00
    (assume 7 year life for this discussion)


    $292.50 per battery * 8 batteries (48v bank) * 980 AH / 395AH per string=~24 batteries

    24 batteries * 2,340 per eight batteries * 1/8 bulk pricing * 20yr/7yrlife=$20,057 worth of batteries over 20 years


    (($20,057+$2,000)/ (20 years * 200 kWhrs per month * 12 months)=$0.41 per kWhr battery costs per kWhr over 20 years=$0.46 per kWhr battery+inverter costs over 20 years...

    The above estimates included no sales taxes, no shipping costs, no wiring/permits/no property taxes/labor/installation/distilled water/failed inverter costs... You could easily run the price up by 50% if you add the "incidentals". Also, remember this does not include inflation for replacement battery sets.

    Now, add the $0.09 per kWhr * 1.47 for inverter+battery losses = $0.13 per kWhr... Vs, if I was flat rate residential of $0.116 per kWhr...

    Add all of this together $0.46/kWHr * 1.5 (fudge factor) + $0.13 per kWhr = $0.82 per kWhr for "time shifting" 200 kWhrs per month spread over 20 years.

    I think this all is correct... Your thoughts?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: change of plan

    I just think that it is kind of silly to use a hybrid system to try to reduce your utility load. If you wish to have a backup for security against grid failure, a cheap genny is much cheaper. A grid tie system without batteries is way more efficient. The idea of using batteries to reduce grid load is silly.

    For the money spent on batteries, charge controllers, aux chargers inverters etc. you would be WAY further ahead to add a few panels in a grid tie system.

    I suspect that many people are attracted to battery systems because of the perceived hassles of permits, inspections, utility guys etc involved with grid tying. I fully understand this, and perhaps if people could (would) post their personal experiences with the above issues it might serve to salve peoples fears. I myself have lived in or worked on houses that the last thing we were interested in was having some inspector snoop around in, (for a variety of reasons!)

    Another reason that people are turned on by battery systems is that they lend themselves to experimentation, adding on to etc, all without the need to get anyones "permission". That, and grid tie systems need to be large enough to run a grid tie inverter,,,which lets out most small, low voltage systems.


    Tony

    Sorry for the diversion off topic!
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: change of plan

    Tony and others,

    I understand and agree that battery based systems done "off permit", without an electrician has a certain appeal...

    However, a battery based system is probably more hazardous than your utility feed... You have a breaker on your utility input (and branch circuits)--any shorts, the thing turns off (and through permits, licensed electricians, inspections, etc. this pretty much all that will happen).

    Want some excitement in life? Drop a metal wrench onto your battery bank/buss bars... assuming you survive the explosion of hydrogen+oxygen gases from charging/equalizing batteries, can still see and breath after having concentrated sulfuric acid blown on your eyes/face and breathed in through your lungs, and the resultant fire does not burn your house down around you--everything will be fine...

    Yea--a bit of worst case scenario--but just to reinforce, lead acid batteries and their connections must be treated with up most respect.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • banjorene
    banjorene Solar Expert Posts: 36
    Re: change of plan

    Just for the heck of it
    1 Morninstar Relay Driver $165.00 +-

    1 IOTA RELAY SWITCH $65.00
    and a couple relays (Not sure YET )
    May not be that expensive
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: change of plan

    If you get an appropriate inverter, it will include a transfer switch and internal battery charger...

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • banjorene
    banjorene Solar Expert Posts: 36
    Re: change of plan

    I've seen a few inverters with batt chargers but not with auto transfer switches
    can you explain ?
    And is it lets say under $300....$350
    Rene
    Sorry if all this is a bit off subject but I find it very interesting and it may or may not be very cost effetive but if you already have a small system and your able to save a few dollars being off grid I think that is better then having a small system strictly for backup and not save a thing.Of course if I weren't so lazy I could turn off a circut or two and run my inverter a few hours then turn things back on manually
    Rene
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: change of plan

    In some respects, to go "inexpensive", look for used UPS's (uninterpretable power supplies) from computer centers. The batteries will probably be dead--but change them out (or add an external harness for a larger bank) and you are ready. They will usually have very nice surge suppression and brownout control circuitry (bump low line voltage up to 120 VAC) too.

    Transfer switches and their electronics--if you want them to be fast and relatively "glitchless" (don't want a power failure to reboot your computer)--then a simple mechanical relay will not work... If you want backup power for your TV, lights, laptop with internal battery, and such--a relay would probably work OK.

    Here is a link to the Outback Inverter/Charger/internal transfer switch product line:

    http://www.outbackpower.com/products/sinewave_inverter/

    Xantrex and Magnum also have product with internal chargers and transfer switches (either with the product, or as an option). The lowest prices I saw appear to be around $800 for a MSW inverter with transfer switch.

    As a backup or part/whole house UPS--these products designed for off-grid use look pretty nice. But, they are not cheap (note that the battery is, by far, the most expensive component--so getting a inverter/charger with a very good charger + remote battery temperature sensor--is going to help extend your battery life).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • n3qik
    n3qik Solar Expert Posts: 741 ✭✭
    Re: change of plan
    banjorene wrote: »
    Just for the heck of it
    1 Morninstar Relay Driver $165.00 +-

    1 IOTA RELAY SWITCH $65.00
    and a couple relays (Not sure YET )
    May not be that expensive

    This is what SolarJohn is using. I am doing the same thing, but with a industrial PLC. As stated above, I started out with 45 watts and grown to 1000 watts. Off-grid/battery was the only way to go with this route. Plus I am still not done playing.

    As for the money, I look at it this way, lots of people spend $$ for collage and never see a return. I see a return every day the sun shines.:D
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: change of plan
    BB. wrote: »
    Tony and others,

    I understand and agree that battery based systems done "off permit", without an electrician has a certain appeal...

    However, a battery based system is probably more hazardous than your utility feed... You have a breaker on your utility input (and branch circuits)--any shorts, the thing turns off (and through permits, licensed electricians, inspections, etc. this pretty much all that will happen).

    Want some excitement in life? Drop a metal wrench onto your battery bank/buss bars... assuming you survive the explosion of hydrogen+oxygen gases from charging/equalizing batteries, can still see and breath after having concentrated sulfuric acid blown on your eyes/face and breathed in through your lungs, and the resultant fire does not burn your house down around you--everything will be fine...

    Yea--a bit of worst case scenario--but just to reinforce, lead acid batteries and their connections must be treated with up most respect.

    -Bill

    Bill,

    Believe me, I am not meaning to imply that battery systems are in any fashion safer than grid tie, but just to reenforce the idea that you can play with solar off grid without the "hassle" of permitting, inspections etc.

    In no way do I endorse doing substandard work or installations, but I do understand why people shy away from grid tied for my stated reasons. I guess my point is, as it becomes more common, it will be easier to do. Inspection agencies, utilities etc. will have ''seen it before" and therefore you won't have to be reinventing the wheel on your installation.


    I know well of what you speak about battery hazzards. Years ago, a mishandled wrench across the poles of a truck battery, big boom! No lasting damage or injury thankfully!

    Tony

    PS to Ken, I know a lot of people who spent thousands on College,,, I didn't realize that collageing had become such an expensive hobby! lol
  • banjorene
    banjorene Solar Expert Posts: 36
    Re: change of plan

    Ken I think it may have been solar jon's site that I came across and got the idea from,
    it sounded fairly simple and safe.
    I also understand about batteries as I am now retired from being a mechanic the last 34 years. ANd yes I still don't know everything. 12 volts and a few lights are one thing but 120 v ( heck I'm not big on changing a light switch. ) All of you guys out there have been a huge help to me and I'm sure others,
    Please keep up the great work.
    I'm sure I'l have more questions,ideas,etc. in the future.
    If nothing else I've learned over the years that electricity be it 12 or 12000 volts can be very difficult and very simple all at the same time,
    Thanks again to all of you
    Rene
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: change of plan

    Tony,

    Sorry, I was trying to reinforce what you were saying--not disagree. We also get new readers all of the time and figured this was a good place to reinforce working around lead acid storage batteries is dangerous work.

    I change live switches and sockets on 120 VAC, with the occasional shocks, arcs, and sparks. I disconnect automotive batteries (and larger)--I will not work on a live 12 VDC circuit.

    Back in the olden days (late 1970's)... My state college started around $90 per semester and $70 for books--four years later, it was around $400+ per semester and one book was $120... Plus, they would "republish" the books every couple of years (re-pagenate, change the problem sets around) to kill the used book market... I can only guess what it looks like now...

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: change of plan
    BB. wrote: »
    Tony,

    Sorry, I was trying to reinforce what you were saying--not disagree. We also get new readers all of the time and figured this was a good place to reinforce working around lead acid storage batteries is dangerous work.

    I change live switches and sockets on 120 VAC, with the occasional shocks, arcs, and sparks. I disconnect automotive batteries (and larger)--I will not work on a live 12 VDC circuit.

    Back in the olden days (late 1970's)... My state college started around $90 per semester and $70 for books--four years later, it was around $400+ per semester and one book was $120... Plus, they would "republish" the books every couple of years (re-pagenate, change the problem sets around) to kill the used book market... I can only guess what it looks like now...

    -Bill

    I too will work on live 120vac, but I have to admit that I too often work on live 12vdc, even though I know I shouldn't,,, I hope I don't pay the price. As for College costs,,,, I was joking on Ken's Collage rather than his University.

    T
  • n3qik
    n3qik Solar Expert Posts: 741 ✭✭
    Re: change of plan

    OT: Speaking of $$ spent on higher education. Local radio station this morning ran a story about a new teacher spent the 4+ years the get their teachers degree and only lasted one week in the classroom.:confused:

    Back to topic:
    Placing everything in the shed is a good ideal. Keeps things short and simple. This just limits your monitoring.