Power-Save grid-tied solar

Anyone have any experience with this company? Looks like the 1000 watt system is almost free to install with the rebates and tax credits here in Arizona.

http://www.power-save1200.com/solar.html#buy

Comments

  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Power-Save grid-tied solar

    nobody that i know of has dealt with them. these are premade packages and they don't give the buyer any leeway into their needs as one may want or need better pvs or may consider lesser efficient pvs due to lower costs not to mention inbetween power needs. then there's the inverters and they don't even say what it is you get for your money. for all we know the box is empty. if it was any good they'd state what model and brand inverter you'd be getting and the same could be said for the pvs. then there's the mounting as they don't say how they will be mounted or with what.
    is that all they will offer is batteryless grid-tie with the possibility of a large payback from the government? yes, i have seen the commercials and it is somewhat misleading to the public that they say they can do this for just about free as that won't happen. one size does not fit all and that is why our sponsor does not have this kind of a marketing tactic with overstretched promises of rebates that won't pay for it all even in the best states for solar and will customize the installation with what the customer wants and needs with quality name brand products. that's what saves you money by not going more than you need with stuff known to be good. our sponsor has been around for many many years and i'll bet my bottom dollar that outfit is very new and not so easy to get a hold of when problems arise. who knows if they will be there for you tomorrow at all as they may just go bellyup on you leaving many good intentioned customers stuck with nothing more than an oversized install bill from them and a nonworking solar junk pile?
    i don't know of their reputation or work, but be somewhat aware of this type of get something for nothing while spinning your meter backwards gimmick. they should be saying what you could realisticly could expect and with what equipment and who is to install this with what kind of guarantee, not to mention lists of real satisfied customers that one could possibly contact to see the work done.
    i believe we will see even more of this kind of thing as inflation and energy costs kill real earnings with leaches out there ready to take advantage of people who are desperate for a possible solution in a subject area they do not know of.
    do you know something we don't?
  • booboo
    booboo Solar Expert Posts: 39
    Re: Power-Save grid-tied solar

    I am not sure I understand your response. Does not sound like you looked at the whole page. Maybe it is junk but I am not going to assume it is without looking into it.

    On the page I posted they show the inverter you get and the manufacture where you can get info. http://www.pvpowered.com/. They also give your the panels you will get Ningbo Solar Electric TDB125X125-72-P 170W Module (149.8 CEC PTC Rating). They also have the mounting instructions for the mounts.

    I am going to call them on Monday to see if they will let me upgrade the inverter so I can add more panels leter. I am not going to assume they will not do it.

    My whole 1kw system looks like it would cost me just a couple hundred bucks when I am done. That would be a start for me and them I could add to it later. I just want to make sure it is reputable. I am not the kind that will spend lots of extra money to gain a fraction in efficiency by buying the designer stuff. If the electronics work they work, if they don't they don't. I have a hard time thinking if my electric company says they are OK thet they would not work.

    Actually after looking the the sponcers page I could get a simmilar system for about the same money. That does seem like a smarter option.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Power-Save grid-tied solar

    One warning flag is vendors, like Power-Save, that push The magic Power-Save 1200 Box:
    SAVE UP TO 25% ON YOUR MONTHLY ELECTRIC BILLS!
    ...
    The Power-Save 1200™ is a small gray box that fits neatly next to your breaker panel, saves you money year after year and protects the entire home.
    ...
    Residential customers throughout North America could see a realized savings of 8% - 10% typically and as much as 25% on their electrical usage (and thus power bills). The Power-Save 1200™ is UL Tested and CSA certified.

    Power Factor Correction devices are real--and they have useful applications... But for the typical home owner/business--they offer ZERO energy or energy bill savings.

    Residential utility meters are "Power Meters", not Volt*Amp meters...

    No matter what your Power Factor is--adding these boxes (really just $10 worth of oil filled motor run capacitors)--will not change your power usage/bill one cent.

    There is an earlier thread here about the exact same PFC product. Scroll down to post 15 (and beyond) on the Scam Alert thread.

    The rest of Power-Save's product line may be 100% wonderful--but dealing with a company involved in selling "snake oil" products too is usually not worth the risk.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • booboo
    booboo Solar Expert Posts: 39
    Re: Power-Save grid-tied solar

    I am not interested in the Power Save 1200. But they do sell name brand solar stuff. The inverters they sell are also sold by the sponcer of this forum so I assume they are good quality.

    My whole intention here is to get started on my grid tied system and 1kw is a start. I do not have a lot of money to waist on it, so close to free works for me.

    I plan to call the sponcer of this forum tomorrow and see what we can do for me.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Power-Save grid-tied solar

    booboo,

    Not a problem... I have never bought anything from either vendor--so I don't have any direct experience to help you with...

    Regarding rebates--Check this link out (DSIREUSA) and see what is available for your area.

    Also, check out the requirements for the rebates/tax credits/incentives--many require installation by licensed contractors (some states will specifically require state licensed solar installers). Some also have various limits (how large, how often, required rate plans, etc.).

    Lastly, make sure you look at the $$$/Rated Watts of the costs of your system... Many times, a small system (~1,000 watt) ends up pretty expensive because the smaller inverters, costs of labor, permits, shipping, and other fixed costs end up being a larger portion of the total installation costs. From my limited experence, around a 3kW STC rated system (or larger) can be more $$$/Watt efficient (a turnkey system installed is probably around $7-$10 per STC watt in the US--depending on a lot of factors).

    In Northern California (I know you are in Arizona), the rate plan (Time of Use with huge rate tier jumps) we are required to use can actually cause those people with large power bills (such as A/C) and small Grid Tied systems to be higher than the original flat rate residential bill without solar (even excluding the costs of the small solar).

    Make sure you have all of the costs/benefits laid out in front of you. And a solid estimate/quote (a person or so here had contractors withdraw the bid as a mistake once the customer tried to sign on the dotted line).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Power-Save grid-tied solar

    i hope it works out to your liking, but do be aware. you might also want to consider looking up other companies and ask them what they offer, how much, warranties, who installs, etc. etc. if you don't you will never know now will you?
    as to savings and getting it for near nothing, i think you'd better look at the dsireusa website as you won't be getting it for nothing and the rebates come much later after the purchase if approved so don't jump into it blindly. that power save co. is luring you with a fake apple if you think it will be free. be careful you don't become a sucker and learn the hard way.
  • booboo
    booboo Solar Expert Posts: 39
    Re: Power-Save grid-tied solar
    Regarding rebates--Check this link out (DSIREUSA) and see what is available for your area.

    This is the same web site Power-Save directed me to. I also checked with our local electric company. I even talked to them about installation.
    Lastly, make sure you look at the $$$/Rated Watts of the costs of your system... Many times, a small system (~1,000 watt) ends up pretty expensive because the smaller inverters, costs of labor, permits, shipping, and other fixed costs end up being a larger portion of the total installation costs. From my limited experence, around a 3kW STC rated system (or larger) can be more $$$/Watt efficient (a turnkey system installed is probably around $7-$10 per STC watt in the US--depending on a lot of factors).
    .

    I can't see any more than 1kw at a time being cost effective. If I do 1kw it is practically free. If I add more than that I have to start putting more and more money out of pocket. I can then do 1kw a year until I get what I need. I don't see the rebates and credits going away anytime soon.

    One thing I will probably spend the money on up front is a bigger inverter.
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Power-Save grid-tied solar

    well, good luck on it and let us know how it went for you.
  • booboo
    booboo Solar Expert Posts: 39
    Re: Power-Save grid-tied solar

    [quotei hope it works out to your liking, but do be aware. you might also want to consider looking up other companies and ask them what they offer, how much, warranties, who installs, etc. etc. if you don't you will never know now will you?[/quote]

    That was my plan. You must have missed my preveous posts.
    that power save co. is luring you with a fake apple if you think it will be free

    I did not say it was free, it is almost free. To that I will need a few hundred dollars of parts, ie wire, shipping, etc. When I add in the rebates and credits that I found on the dsireusa web site power-save pointed me to I figure it is almost free.
    careful you don't become a sucker and learn the hard way.

    Not only will I not get suckered in by these guys I will also not get suckered into the guys that think that this stuff is rocket science and charge $22k for a 2kw system installed.
  • booboo
    booboo Solar Expert Posts: 39
    Re: Power-Save grid-tied solar
    well, good luck on it and let us know how it went for you.

    When I figure out what and from who I am going to buy I will let you know how it works out.
  • Roderick
    Roderick Solar Expert Posts: 253 ✭✭
    Re: Power-Save grid-tied solar

    I noticed that the inverters provided are PVP1100, PVP2000, and PVP3000. These are first-generation inverters, possibly accounting for the bargain price. I'm not saying it won't be reliable - I have one, myself. But you'll struggle to communicate with them by computer, if you had plans to monitor your array that way.
  • Windsun
    Windsun Solar Expert Posts: 1,164 ✭✭
    Re: Power-Save grid-tied solar

    To say that Power-Save has "exagerated claims" is being kind.

    http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=91211&page=3

    http://finance.google.com/group/google.finance.718313/topics?start=10&sa=N

    etc.

    Just do a search on power-save + scam
  • Chuck46
    Chuck46 Solar Expert Posts: 95
    Re: Power-Save grid-tied solar

    Hey BooBoo,

    I live in AZ also and have been using solar for the last 15+ years. I have never heard of those folks but have delt frequently with- the fourm sponser with very good results.

    On rebates, Im not sure what folks have told you but it is only one rebate per address in AZ limilted to a max of $1000.00. Good luck.

    Chuck
  • booboo
    booboo Solar Expert Posts: 39
    Re: Power-Save grid-tied solar

    I am not sure what Windsun is talking about. I can't find anything in these links about Power-Save solar scams. All I see is their Power-Save 1200 which is not of interest to me. Like I stated earlier in this thread.

    This forums sponcer also sells the same brand inverters. so they must be good. When I went to Xantrex and PV Powers website string sizing tool, they both had the solar panels that Power-Save sells as options, so I feel comfortable with their equipment.

    The price for a 1kw system would be almost free to me with the rebate and credits. The only way I am going to install solar on my home is for it to be mostly free. I see an oportunity to do it so I am looking in to it. I am not going to spend lots of money for small percentages of efficiancey and don't care to have designer brand labels hanging on my wall for thousand of dollars extra when the PV power stuff will work.

    Is the PV Power or solar panels they offer not going to work? If not can someone please tell me.
  • Windsun
    Windsun Solar Expert Posts: 1,164 ✭✭
    Re: Power-Save grid-tied solar

    The problem is not with the exact products they sell (except for their phony power factor correction capacitor), it is with the claims they make about their systems.
  • booboo
    booboo Solar Expert Posts: 39
    Re: Power-Save grid-tied solar
    The problem is not with the exact products they sell (except for their phony power factor correction capacitor), it is with the claims they make about their systems

    I did the research and understand that their advertising is not true, it actually is a blatent lie. The best deal online I could find for apples to apples products was $1,343.68 more money. And that is for the exact same inverter and same size and rating panels and same type of monting equipment. My problem is for the extra $1300+ I am not going to do it. Do you think it is better for me to not install the solar or install their stuff?

    As far as their phony power factor capacitors, after reaserching this technology, I do not feel it will save me any money on utility bills. My question is, I live in a rural area and our power is very unpredictable. I have UPSs on all of my TVs and computers. I can monitor the power with these UPSs. We daily get low voltage saggs of voltages in the 90s. We have lots of power outages but very few power spikes. The electric company tells me they know the power is bad out here and nothing they can do about it. I think this power factor device might be a good thing for me as it could help with the low power situations. Is this true or would it not do me any good?
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Power-Save grid-tied solar

    A Power Factor correction device will do nothing useful in a brownout situation. They are used to correct Power Factor for LARGE (10 - 20 HP) industrial motors.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • booboo
    booboo Solar Expert Posts: 39
    Re: Power-Save grid-tied solar

    [power]A Power Factor correction device will do nothing useful in a brownout situation. They are used to correct Power Factor for LARGE (10 - 20 HP) industrial motors.[/power]

    I know nothing about these devices but it seems to me that a bunch of caps with stored energy could help in the case of a brownout. Do you know why they don't? Do they simply not hold enough energy to help?
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Power-Save grid-tied solar

    No, the PF device from Power-Save will do you zero good... If you are still interested--get a couple oil filled motor "run" capacitors for a few dollars a piece--instead of paying $300 each.

    While capacitors do store energy--in an Alternating Current system... They do not store useful energy for a "brownout" situation...

    A brownout will last seconds or even longer... The most a capacitor in this case can store is 1/2 cycle of 1/60th of second--or 1/120th of a second worth of power...

    If you want to get an idea of how a capacitor might work in a real system... Think of a gasoline powered motor... The "capacitor" would be the air trapped at the top of a compression stroke. The "inductor" would be the rotational momentum of the flywheel... If you spin the motor (without any gasoline, you get a transition of energy stored in the rotational flywheel (when the piston is at the bottom of the stroke) and when the piston is at the top of the stroke and the momentum of the flywheel has been transfered to the compressed air (on the compression stroke)...

    Adding more mass or more pistons/higher compression ratio, etc... Does not add any more useful energy to the system. The only way you get power is to consume it in useful work (converted from the gasoline+oxygen).

    A way of thinking of power factor--think of a light rail car on train tracks. You are pulling a rope to pull the car along. If you stand right in front of the car--you pull 100lbs--and 100lbs will be transfered to pulling the cart. If you stand off to the side--say 45 degree angle--pulling 100lbs will only give you (100lbs*cos 45 degrees=) 70.71 lbs... The capacitor--electrically, is straightening the 45 degree pull back to 0 degree offset (the motor is inductive--so the cap+motor on the line--with the correct size capacitor--will pull everything back into phase (PF=1; Cos 0 = 1).

    Notice, there is no extra work being done pulling the rail car--but if you want to pull the cart at 45 degree angle with 100lbs, the rope (and you) will have to pull 100lbs/cos45=141.4lbs--so the rope (and you) have to be stronger/bigger... Sort of like the electrical line--no more work being done, but more "out of phase" current is required and the wires/transformers have to be larger--and there is more I^2 * R heating losses from the current.

    If you have really bad power, getting a real UPS is your only solution... There are some that have multi-tap transformers in them--so they are more efficient when running down at 95 volts (instead of the normal 120 vac). And, you can get inverter that are standby converters (just pass AC mains through, and within 15 msec will switch to inverter if the power fails)--they work OK for TV's and such...

    Or you can get continuous switching UPS--these work by continuously converting... AC comes in, converts to DC/battery then back to AC... This rides through dirty power much better than the above UPS (in my experience, about 1 in 10 real power failures will cause a PC to reboot--but was never able to reproduce in a simple lab environment)--but is more expensive to run (more wasted power).

    If you have power with lots of spikes in it--adding a capacitor could reduce the peaks--but you are better off with real line conditioners (not cheap) or surge suppressors (typically used for lightning)--adding a cap to the line will just as often cause "ringing" on the line and mess up other equipment.

    Unfortunately, there is no cheap/easy method to fix bad power--if there was, you power company would have done that in the first place.

    Whether you purchase an off-the-shelf solution like a UPS (many small, or get a large one intended for a computer room--sometimes you can get them cheap), or end up "making" your own system using an OutBack/Xantrex/etc. inverter+system (add solar, etc. to reduce power bill)--this is the only way will be able to "live" with bad power--if you need clean power for your home/business (that I can see).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • booboo
    booboo Solar Expert Posts: 39
    Re: Power-Save grid-tied solar

    The UPSs I have seems to do a good job so I am happy with that.

    I figured that was the case with the capasitors. I am not well versed in the technology but I was hopeing someone would give me a good answer like you just did rather than simply telling me that the company was no good.

    Once I add the solar I am assuming that it can help with the brownouts, as long as the sun is shining and it is making power. Is that true? I understand that a lot of this would depend on the load the home is using and the amount of power produced by the solar.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Power-Save grid-tied solar

    You are very welcome BooBoo...

    Regarding "[o]nce I add the solar I am assuming that it can help with the brownouts..."...

    The answer, I am afraid, is probably not... In general--the size and loads on the "grid" way overwhelm anything your "little" solar system can do to affect the grid voltage/frequency/stability...

    The best way I could describe it--imagine you are at the edge of a lake, with changes in water levels, waves from wind, and motor boat wakes. And you have a hose dropped into to edge of the lake and you can add or remove water at will... No matter what you do--the surface of the lake will remain rough.

    And, if your "drop" from the grid to your home is so small (long run of wire, not very heavy gauge)--all your solar grid tie system would do would be to add an "offset voltage" to the line (probably on the order of a couple volts). Your power would still be "dirty" and all over the place in terms of voltage--but just a couple volts higher on average. Because, you Grid Tied Inverter's output is not voltage regulated--it is designed to follow the Grid's voltage.

    And if your grid voltage is very bad (very low voltage or very high voltage at times)--the Grid Tied Inverter will simply turn off for 5 minutes--then wait for the grid to come back into specifications (voltage and frequency).

    Does this make sense to you?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • booboo
    booboo Solar Expert Posts: 39
    Re: Power-Save grid-tied solar

    Yes, that makes sense.
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Power-Save grid-tied solar

    Yikes, with the power company delivering that much lousy power to you, you do need a whole house UPS, with brown out protection.

    I know there are small (800W) constant voltage transformers made, but I've never seen one for a whole house setup. You are likely talking some seriously large $$ to cover your whole house. I think distributed, point of use, like you are doing, would be the best return on the dollar.

    It sounds like even if you install a large PV and battery system, you would end up running mostly off your inverter, and charging the batteries from the grid. You may even have to tie the grid to the "generator" inputs, as your grid power is so bad, the inverter may reject it, but accept it as "generator" power.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • newenergy
    newenergy Solar Expert Posts: 291 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Power-Save grid-tied solar
    BB. wrote: »
    In Northern California (I know you are in Arizona), the rate plan (Time of Use with huge rate tier jumps) we are required to use can actually cause those people with large power bills (such as A/C) and small Grid Tied systems to be higher than the original flat rate residential bill without solar (even excluding the costs of the small solar).

    -Bill

    You used to have to switch to Tim of Use rates, then you didn't, but at some point you might have to again. In SoCal you currently don't have to switch to Time of Use.

    from the January 2008 update of the CSI handbook

    2.7 Time of Use Rates

    In order to provide additional incentives for customers to install solar systems that coincide with California’s peak electricity demand, CSI Applicants were required under state law (SB1) and CPUC D. 06-12-033 to take their electric service under applicable Time-Of-Use (TOU) tariffs. However, state law (AB 1714)20 and CPUC D.07-06-014 have modified this order such that
    these TOU requirements are currently optional for CSI Applicants not otherwise required to take service on TOU rates until the CPUC develops and makes effective TOU tariffs that meet the requirements of Public Utility Code Section 2851(a)(4). Entities that receive the CSI incentive after the new TOU rates are established must go on the new TOU rates.