How do we get more people into Solar?

paulstamser · July 2008

Re: How do we get more people into Solar?

I see it a little differently.

Forget the stand-alone systems for the moment, and look at mainstream grid users.

People are already warning that the existing grid cannot take the increased load of lots of VOLT type hybrids. True or not I don't know. However, what is wrong with adding thousands, in time MILLIONS of garage roof PV chargers that could BOTH charge your car and when in surplus mode could inject electrons into the existing grid?

Isn't that the BEST of both worlds?

It certainly addresses the OP of getting more people into solar. What is more alluring than driving your car for free?

BB. · July 2008

Re: How do we get more people into Solar?

The grid, at night, has lots of excess capacity... For California, you can look at ~85% of the electrical use in the state on a daily graph:

There is a 50% increase in power use from the night to the day--But because it takes hours (or longer) for a major coal/nuclear/etc. power plant to adjust its power generation--the utilities, at night, are almost begging for their power to be consumed--because it has to be dumped somewhere...

Someone here is already on demand or real-time pricing--and they are getting down into the $0.01 per kWhr...

If we are to add lots of car charging at night, peak shaving during the day (solar pv), and add real-time power pricing with controllers that allow us to choose when/pricing that the car will be recharged--we are probably better off.

Yes, eventually, if we add too much generating sources--we will have issues with grid capacity... that is why most states (including California) are current limiting home Grid Tied solar to around 1% (or less) of the existing grid capacity...

And why, sometimes there are issues with RE power--For example, just a few weeks ago, Oregon almost had major problems because of an unexpected windy day--and wind power producers who don't answer their phones and don't understand simple instructions (i.e., turn your wind turbine system off).

PORTLAND, Ore. -- The wind huffed, and it puffed, and it nearly caused major problems in the Northwest's electrical grid last week.

Power managers say they have some fixing to do.

A surge of wind last Monday afternoon jumped far beyond levels forecast by operators of Oregon's burgeoning wind-farm industry, sending more power into the regional grid than it could handle.

The Bonneville Power Administration is responsible for adjusting hydropower generation levels to accommodate the power from wind turbines so the system isn't overloaded.

It realized by Monday evening that it could no longer handle the surge without increasing spills of water through hydroelectric dams to levels dangerous to fish. Spilling the water keeps it from the hydropower generators.

-Bill

And, I should add--we will never drive for free--the government will not / can not allow this to happen--road taxes are for running our road system.

whackamole · July 2008

Re: How do we get more people into Solar?

I'll toss in my newbie two cents. Go easy...

I take a more economic perspective. Oil, Solar, Wind, Hydro... These are all forms of energy which have benefits and costs associated with them.

I think we all can agree on two things:

that the cost of power via solar given current technology is more expensive than grid power.
there is no free lunch.

Costs
Folks on a large scale will not voluntarily give up their precious financial resources to pay 10.00 for something they can purchase for 2.00 (just arbitrary numbers) at another store, just because I tell them "its good for the environment." This is just simple economics for each household. I might be willing to pay "extra" for that which agrees with my personal values. For instance, I may be willing to pay a 20% premium to purchase food grown locally rather than another country because I value the local economy. But, will I pay a 100% premium? How about 80%? It all depends on how much cash I have to burn to match up with my good intentions.

Not everyone will be willing to pay extra. Not everyone can pay extra. (It would be interesting to correlate household income with the presence of a grid-tied solar system on the house, or a hybrid vehicle in the driveway. I'd venture a guess those households are not in dire financial straits.)

A macro-scale move to renewable energy will happen when the "market" drives prices down to a point where the cost differential is not so great and it is seen as "affordable" compared to alternatives. This could happen if a) the alternative's prices rise, or, b)the government raises taxes in order to jump-start RE initiatives, giving the illusion to the consumer that it is more competitive, or c) there is a technological breakthrough, or d) consumers choose to make do with less to a degree that demand drops.

These kind of changes can happen, and can cause very quick results....

Look what finally happened without government intervention, laws, rules, or European-style tax rates: Fuel hit the magic number of about $4 a gallon and individual consumer behavior actually began to change. My company, which is very environmentally conscious (LEED certification and so forth) recently began seeing a large increase in interest in carpooling, remote work from home, and bicycle alternatives. On a macroeconomic scale, we actually saw overall gas demand level off and even drop as people "weighed the options." It is theorized that a large enough number of them found alternatives such that the demand decreased. SUV sales are plummeting, and small cars are the new "darling." Manufacturers make what there is demand for, and consumers are responding to higher fuel prices to demand them. This is your old econ 101 class' supply and demand in action, and it is doing far more than a command-and-control government gas mileage standard ever accomplished, and in a much shorter time frame with lower government waste.

So when solar power is viewed as economically feasible compared to the alternatives, you will see a move in that direction.

No Free Lunch
Widespread use of solar (or any other form of RE) is not magically "better," as if energy were somehow free of cost. Solar involves using up resources which can get scarce as well as using plenty of energy to produce it. A spike in demand for silicon due to demand for solar panels, will drive solar costs up. (Notwithstanding a techological breakthrough)

And, there are unintended side-effects as well of a massive shift. Production of biofuels has contributed in part to food price increases because land otherwise used for food production is reallocated to a crop which can yield more profit for the farmer. (I assume it will, otherwise why does the farmer plant it?) Did we really think about this "cost" of energy production with ethanol? We may find there are other impacts to a widespread use of solar and electricity in general. (Someone else on this thread already touched on the impact of such a change on our tax structure.)

The bottom line is that we cannot "get more people into solar," unless it appears as a attractive financial proposition that each person can choose. All energy will cost something to turn it from its raw form (fossil, sun, geothermal, hydro) into electrons for our lights and tools and fuel for our cars. It will cost something either in chemical pollution, view pollution , noise pollution, lifestyle reduction through higher prices, reduced animal habitat or what have you.

Telco · July 2008

Re: How do we get more people into Solar?

I don't see why this is being debated. Only a very small fraction of people in the US are going to be interested in the work needed to maintain a solar power system. The rest are only interested in the light coming on when they hit the switch, and only want to think about the cost once a month. I seriously doubt there will ever be so many people doing solar that the tax man will have to worry.

And really, if the tax man wants to tax the electric car, he only has to require that electric cars be fitted with a tamper proof odometer, and tax electric cars on an annual mileage rate to be checked and calculated at the yearly tag renewal. This stuff isn't that hard.

So far as the wind farm fiasco in the northwest, that was just a lack of foresight. Any time a huge wind farm goes online, the utility that receives the power should be requiring equipment be installed that allows them to idle the wind generators remotely or they aren't allowed on the grid. Be willing to bet wind farms get fitted with such access now.

paulstamser · July 2008

Re: How do we get more people into Solar?

I'm seeing this all rather differently.

The solar electric power that I generate does seem like a FREE LUNCH. It feels that way every day the sun is shining. Sure, every 10 years or so I need new batteries, but for the rest of the time it "feels" like free. So would the 40-mile plug-in hybrid car.

Nor do I see that it takes anything at all "to maintain" a solor power system esp. one where the battery you charge is part of your plug-in hybrid car. Maintain how? Clean the glass? The solar part of it sits there day after day, month after month, year after year, doing it's own thing silently and efficiently, yes, like magic! The magic of fusion power, but on the sun where it belongs!

Plus I can very well envision that a garage top solar charging system will be a status symbol for people who want the best and latest technology. ("Well, we don't buy gas anymore, or very rarely. Our garage top charger lets us drive essentially for free for much of the time.")

About taxation on home-brewed solar fuel, that will come in time, but right now where I live I wouldn't be paying any taxes. Just like I don't pay taxes on electricity I'm generating on a daily basis instead of being tied into the grid. My only cost are the batteries. (My last set got me thru 10 years; this set is now 5 years old and still going strong!)

I view the future of (partly) solar powered cars as very positive and predict that MILLIONS will get into solar via that route by having garage roof chargers for their cars. If just a fraction of American road miles become solar generated, it will put a BIG dent into carbon emissions and foreign oil demand, etc. Plus, when your system is "idling" (car filled or gone), you could send your home-brewed electrons back into the grid and meter backwards like a good citizen.

Too bad I won't be able to afford my own dream!

SolarJohn · July 2008

Re: How do we get more people into Solar?

I was in agreement with you Paul, right up to the last sentance. I can't afford to do everything I want to do either, but I can do something. In the two years since I started with my PV project I've managed to cut my grid-supplied electricity usage by 50%. That is something! I'll own an electric car someday, but my PV system won't be big enough to charge it (at first). But if everybody would do what I've done (for less than $4000.00):

Half of the power plants could shut down.

Thousands of tons of pollutants wouldn't enter the atmosphere.

Mercury poisoning of fish would be cut by 50%.

50% of the mountains that are now destroyed by Mountaintop Removal Coal Mining could be saved.

etc. etc. etc.

Do what you can Paul, it does make a difference.

John

System2 · July 2008

Re: How do we get more people into Solar?

solarjohn wrote:

I was in agreement with you Paul, right up to the last sentance. I can't afford to do everything I want to do either, but I can do something. In the two years since I started with my PV project I've managed to cut my grid-supplied electricity usage by 50%. That is something! I'll own an electric car someday, but my PV system won't be big enough to charge it (at first). But if everybody would do what I've done (for less than $4000.00):

Half of the power plants could shut down.

Thousands of tons of pollutants wouldn't enter the atmosphere.

Mercury poisoning of fish would be cut by 50%.

50% of the mountains that are now destroyed by Mountaintop Removal Coal Mining could be saved.

etc. etc. etc.

Do what you can Paul, it does make a difference.

John

Is your 50% assumption based on "everyone" spending what you did, less than $4000? If so, I say no way. I don't have any evidence but I suspect business and industry consumes MUCH more electricity than residential so you would have to include them also. The electricity bill where I work is about $300,000 per month and we pay a lower commercial rate. We'd have to spend a fortune to offset even a small percentage of that with solar. We don't make steel or refine oil or do any other energy intensive process, just lighting, HVAC etc. for less than 1,000 employees. Think of all the industry in the USA and around the globe, I don't think solar (or wind)will ever compete with other more dense sources of energy. This document produced by Sharp http://solar.sharpusa.com/files/sol_dow_TNPlant_PR101603.pdf states that the 2002 solar market was 560mw. Texas alone has a generating capacity of 76,000mw. That Sharp plant would take 3,800 years to produce enough solar panels to offset what Texas can produce. Multiply that by global demand. Or divide it by the all the worlds' solar production capacity to see how long it would take to offset Texas alone. Assuming market equals production, 76,000mw / 560 = 135 years to offset Texas. Wind? We'd need 76,000 1mw wind gennies, I can hear the NIMBies, Audobon Society, ad infinitum trying to stop that now. Nukes, more research into fusion, turning my lawn clippings into alcohol maybe. Yes they are finite, yes they need to be replaced eventually but fossil fuels will be with us for a long time.

Cheers,

Bad Apple

Telco · July 2008

Re: How do we get more people into Solar?

paulstamser wrote: »

Nor do I see that it takes anything at all "to maintain" a solor power system esp. one where the battery you charge is part of your plug-in hybrid car. Maintain how? Clean the glass? The solar part of it sits there day after day, month after month, year after year, doing it's own thing silently and efficiently, yes, like magic! The magic of fusion power, but on the sun where it belongs!

Yup, maintain. Someone has to install the batteries, perform battery checks, monitor the system, PMCS the system, troubleshoot system problems, replace batteries, ect ect ect. Just reading this board I can see that doing solar involves a little maintenance work every day, even if it's no more than checking the system monitors to make sure there's no problems. There's a lot more maintenance involved with going solar than there is going grid, where the only maintenance required is the minute a month that you have to open the bill, write the check for the bill, and mail the bill. Considering that even this is too much for some people, who set up automatic bill paying, do you really think the masses are going to be wanting to deal with all that work related to solar power?

SolarJohn · July 2008

Re: How do we get more people into Solar?

Re: I've cut my grid-supplied electricity usage by 50%.

Quote from BadApple: Is your 50% assumption based on "everyone" spending what you did, less than $4000? If so, I say no way.

Most of that $4000.00 was spend on Solar PV panels and equipment. Some was spent on CFL lights, power strips, and other conservation efforts. I did all of the work myself, so there was no labor cost.

I did, however, neglect to mention that I replaced my refrigerator with an energy-star-rated one. I also added some insulation and a new window as a part of a home renovation project. While those things helped to lower my electricity usage, they were necessities and not realy a part of any energy-conservation plan. So yes, you can add those costs to the $4000.00 if you want to, but those were normal expenses that every household has, regardless if they're trying to cut back on electricity usage or not.

whackamole · July 2008

Re: How do we get more people into Solar?

paulstamser wrote: »

I'm seeing this all rather differently.

The solar electric power that I generate does seem like a FREE LUNCH. It feels that way every day the sun is shining. Sure, every 10 years or so I need new batteries, but for the rest of the time it "feels" like free.

Once created, you are correct, a solar panel just sits there doing its electron thing for what feels like "free" for you.

However, my point is directed at the 'cradle-to-grave' impacts of using a particular energy source. All energy sources have these impacts in varying degrees.

1 energy used and environmental/social/political costs resulting from the creation of the energy source. (See China's problem when they did not properly handle the solar manufacturing costs.)

2 energy used and environmental/social/political costs of using the energy source. (We all see the current political costs of relying on oil in unstable regions of the world)

3 energy used and environmental/social/political costs of disposing of the energy source when it has reached end-of-life. (Just where do all those windmills in Texas go when they wear out?)

Fossil/Solar/Wind/Hydro/etc impacts all need to be assessed from cradle-to-grave if we are really looking comparing their costs and benefits.

paulstamser · July 2008

Re: How do we get more people into Solar?

Telco wrote: »

Yup, maintain. Someone has to install the batteries, perform battery checks, monitor the system, PMCS the system, troubleshoot system problems, replace batteries, ect ect ect. Just reading this board I can see that doing solar involves a little maintenance work every day, even if it's no more than checking the system monitors to make sure there's no problems. There's a lot more maintenance involved with going solar than there is going grid, where the only maintenance required is the minute a month that you have to open the bill, write the check for the bill, and mail the bill. Considering that even this is too much for some people, who set up automatic bill paying, do you really think the masses are going to be wanting to deal with all that work related to solar power?

I don't disagree IF you are talking only about a stand-alone wet-cell home systems. But my idea to GET MORE PEOPLE INTO SOLAR is by solarizing peoples' garages in order to charge the battery in the coming 40-mile-range Chevy Volt plug-in hybrid. I doubt if the battery in that car will be maintained by the owner, if it will need any maintenance at all (will it?); if it does, the dealer will handle that work.

When you take the wet cell battery out of the PV system equation there is no maintenance that I know of -- except wiping the glass -- and I have been PV stand-alone since 1988. It is magical! This is the best of all worlds: You drive up to your garage and plug in. When the sun is shining you get a free charge; if not, the grid handles it. When your car is charged up or not home, your garage PV feeds back into the grid. No wet cells involved.

Perhaps MILLIONS of Americans could get into solar that way. FREE miles will be a big lure just for bragging rights even if the up front costs are high. Why not PV arrays in company parking lots too? Every little bit will help.

paulstamser · July 2008

Re: How do we get more people into Solar?

whackamole wrote: »

Once created, you are correct, a solar panel just sits there doing its electron thing for what feels like "free" for you.

However, my point is directed at the 'cradle-to-grave' impacts of using a particular energy source. All energy sources have these impacts in varying degrees.

1 energy used and environmental/social/political costs resulting from the creation of the energy source. (See China's problem when they did not properly handle the solar manufacturing costs.)

2 energy used and environmental/social/political costs of using the energy source. (We all see the current political costs of relying on oil in unstable regions of the world)

3 energy used and environmental/social/political costs of disposing of the energy source when it has reached end-of-life. (Just where do all those windmills in Texas go when they wear out?)

Fossil/Solar/Wind/Hydro/etc impacts all need to be assessed from cradle-to-grave if we are really looking comparing their costs and benefits.

With regard to PV I've heard it both ways: That a panel produces more electrons over its life-span than it takes to make it. I've also heard that it doesn't.

What is the truth?

I do know that I bought my first PV panel in 1988 (Kyocera 48 watts) and it's still doing its "magical" thing 20 years later with no impact that I can see on the local fauna and flora. What it took to make it in Japan I don't know, but once here its impact is NOTHING compared to the coal-fired grid infrastructure all around me. I have an older panel, an "Arco" maybe?, that came out of a test solar plant in California built in the 1970s -- (I can almost think of the name, Hesperia, something like that?) -- tall and narrow with big round cells. Sort of scorched/browned, but still cranking out electrons!

As for disposing them, I suppose they will just stay here as long as I am alive. If they conk out, I'll just set it aside with the rest of my junk. Unless I could get some $$ recycling it.

BB. · July 2008

Re: How do we get more people into Solar?

I read about one program that charged about 10% of the solar panel's cost to take them apart and recycle the materials.

And regarding electronics in general--we still have some (Superfund?) sites around San Jose from all of the exotic/toxic chemicals that leaked out over the years as the industry was taking off down here...

Read whackamole's link on China--They are having huge problems over there now--Going green (and driving manufacturing overseas) here is devastating Asia...

-Bill

Telco · July 2008

Re: How do we get more people into Solar?

paulstamser wrote: »

I don't disagree IF you are talking only about a stand-alone wet-cell home systems. But my idea to GET MORE PEOPLE INTO SOLAR is by solarizing peoples' garages in order to charge the battery in the coming 40-mile-range Chevy Volt plug-in hybrid. I doubt if the battery in that car will be maintained by the owner, if it will need any maintenance at all (will it?); if it does, the dealer will handle that work.

When you take the wet cell battery out of the PV system equation there is no maintenance that I know of -- except wiping the glass -- and I have been PV stand-alone since 1988. It is magical! This is the best of all worlds: You drive up to your garage and plug in. When the sun is shining you get a free charge; if not, the grid handles it. When your car is charged up or not home, your garage PV feeds back into the grid. No wet cells involved.

Perhaps MILLIONS of Americans could get into solar that way. FREE miles will be a big lure just for bragging rights even if the up front costs are high. Why not PV arrays in company parking lots too? Every little bit will help.

The only issue then, would be where does all that electricity being generated in the daytime go, and where does it come from at night? How many panels would it take to produce enough power to recharge one Chevy Volt or a like vehicle? Multiply that by 10 million, then dump all that into the grid during the day. Now, draw all that out at night. If millions of people are suddenly doing a grid tie, that would add up to quite a bit of power for the grid to absorb without some sort of storage system, and without a storage system it would require quite a bit of power to be available at night to charge all those cars up. This is not a small amount we are talking about. There's over 300 million people in the US alone. Now assume that this breaks down to 4 people per family, and each family has an average of 2 cars, that works out to 150 million cars that will be looking for a charge from the grid every night.

I know I'm sounding like a naysayer here, but these things need to be taken into account. Our current electrical grid is already overloaded. Look at California, everyone turns on the air conditioner and their grid starts crashing (brownouts). Plugging millions of cars in every night is going to draw far more power than those air conditioners do. None of this even begins to look at the business model changes that would have to be forced on the utilities in order to make this happen. Spain would be a good place to look at on this, as they just passed a law last year or so requiring all new construction to have solar power built into the structure.

Incidentally, there's a lot of houses out there with dirty windows, and all you have to do to clean them is walk around the house. If people won't walk around the house to clean glass, they certainly won't climb the roof to do it

.

mike95490 · July 2008

Re: How do we get more people into Solar?

It's the TIME that that power is used. When sun is up, all the coolers are running. That's the peak the utility has to buy for.

Put PV's on the roofs, and when you need power for cooling the most (2-4pm) the PV's are putting out the most. Shaves the peak from the utility co. nights, they have lots of excess, and THAT nighttime excess is used for car charging.

There is even a scheme, where EV's can feed the grid for a 10 minute emergency, while power co fixes a problem

Telco · July 2008

Re: How do we get more people into Solar?

Doesn't address the main problem, how to generate enough juice at night to power all those cars. How many panels does it take to recharge a Chevy Volt? How many panels does it take to run a standard HVAC system? In order for the grid to use the sun to power the cars and air conditioners, you need enough panel capacity to both run the AC and recharge the car, along with enough storage somewhere so that the car can be recharged several hours after the sun goes down.

The only nice thing here is, if you use something other than electricity to heat the house you can optimize the panel count for summertime as the panels that would gather AC power in the summer would make up for the lower amount of power needed to charge the car in the winter.

I don't know for certain, but from what I've read on an EV it'll take about 3 times more power to recharge a car as it does to operate the air conditioner, which means that the grid will simply switch from being overloaded in the daytime to being overloaded at night. Only nice thing about that is, old people won't be popping their cogs from the heat if the grid starts failing at night instead of in the daytime.

All in all, going to a charge-at-home electric car system supplemented by widespread on-grid solar power generation will mean a modern new power grid with a lot of storage capacity and a new business model for the utilities. What we have now won't cut it as it is, and that's with no rechargeable cars.

icarus · July 2008

Re: How do we get more people into Solar?

The following is a post of mine from Prius chat forum:

One HUGE advantage EVs or Plug in hybrids have, (In addition to the inherent efficiency advantage of an electric motor over an ICE) is the ability not only buy power from the grid, but also to SELL power to the grid! At first thought this would be silly, but if you look at it a bit further you realize the genus of the idea. (All the technology currently exists thanks to the PV solar industry!)

Imagine you drive home at 5:00 pm in your ev. You plug in your car to charge for the next day. But if power is expensive, (peak hour demand) you could A: program the car to wait until it got cheaper (typically overnight) and then charge, or B: better yet, sell some of the remaining power in your car, TO THE GRID while it is expensive, and then buy it back when it is cheaper. All the while, making sure the car has enough electricity to get you to work the following day.

Most commuter cars sit 23/7. As such, they can be plugged in to the grid 23/7 doing this buying and selling as the grid needs the peak load. The benefit for you is that your (net) power is cheap, but more importantly, by having a huge number of evs plugged in, you have now created the huge battery bank that would allow solar power to be used 24/7, even though it is only generated ~6-8 hours a day. It would help even out the swings of weather with solar/wind applications. With this large reserve capacity, the idling, spinning capacity of the the grid generating system could be significantly reduced. The idling, spinning capacity is that capacity that MUST be on line and ready to go when the next light gets turned on. Conventional coal/gas or Nuke plants can't just turn on and off when the next light gets switched. It is also, far and away the most polluting (any pollution that comes out of any generator (including hydro). This is because much of it'd power is just plain going to waste!

So by encouraging evs, we would be doing several things at once, that all would be a benefit. We would be able to travel cheaper, we would reduce our petro use, we would reduce CO2 emissions and we would be providing an outlet for solar capacity 24/7.

Here are some references,,, I haven't read any of them yet however,,,,

V2G: Vehicle to Grid Power
V2Green: Plug-In Vehicle Smart Charging Startup Earth2Tech
Cleantech Blog: Smart Grids and Electric Vehicles
Technology - Vehicle-to-Grid (V2G)
V2G: Smart grids meet electric vehicles | Cleantech - A blog about keeping tech clean - CNET News.com

That should keep you all busy for an hour or two!

mike95490 · July 2008

Re: How do we get more people into Solar?

http://socalsolartour.com/solar.htm

Currently, there IS surplus nighttime power. Not EVERYONE is going to get a PEV, but the early adopters will be in a win-win situation for a while.

Many "PV-EV" homes produce more electric than they use, wiht 6-7KW of panels:
http://socalsolartour.com/cerritos.htm Documented house & Toyota RAV4 EV

System2 · July 2008

Re: How do we get more people into Solar?

Ready to get into solar? Why not go this route - I'm about put my off grid cabin and 20 acres on the market. First mover advantage is yours. Check it out here or email me for more information: www.offgridaz.blogspot.com

JetMech · September 2008

Somewhat related...

All the incentives, rebates and so forth are great...but there is still the up front cost that is so prohibitive. Is there any way to factor those rebates and incentives in at the time of purchase, reducing the initial out-of-pocket to get started? For me, that is one of the biggest things holding me back from getting into solar.

mike95490 · September 2008

Re: Somewhat related...

Most comercial installers, will give you the rebate, as a credit toward the install, and you sign the rebate over to them. But then you pay their labor. Depending on your local area, sometimes homeowners can install and get a rebate, and sometimes you have to have it "profesionally installed" to get the rebate.

ALL installs have to have city inspections, and then Electric Company inspections too. They want to make sure you don't have something hooked up wrong that will fry a lineman somewhere.

JetMech · September 2008

Re: Somewhat related...

Now if I can install it myself and still have that rebate applied to the initial cost, I'd go for it. I could care less about signing the rebate over to someone if they take that off the initial cost. I completely understand the inspections and would want them anyway for everyone's protection. Now...to try to find what retailers will allow me to do all that...

System2 · September 2008

Re: How do we get more people into Solar?

OK, so I'm another newbie but here's what I am doing.

I am a genneral contractor in Vermont. My current development (also my first) is four houses. They are 960sqft and being built to exceed energy star standards. They are each getting 1kw systems w/bat back up. Due to financing, the homes must have gridpower led to them but it dose not have to turned on. I am using 8 UL16 batteries. I am setting them up this way for a couple reasons. We have some extended black outs up here for one. Two is so that if the power companies and gov start messing around with rates and billing and that crap, the home owners can just cut the switch. I am doing the 4 homes together to try to set some of the realestate compareables for the area. hopefully if the secondary market for this type of house can be established, it will make it easier to get financing.

Here's whare this project meets this thread. The rigamoralle that I am having to go through to get all this set up is crazy. I started working on this project 8 months ago. I finally said screw it and broke ground with out getting my "Solar Partner" status which I will need to get my costomers their state and federal incentives. I can't hire anyone with experince because there is knowone to hire. I took 2 of carpenter to a 5 day hands on workshop this past spring and also built a system in my construction trailer just to get the experience. I figure by the time I am done with these first 4 houses I should be getting it pretty dialed in. What relly sucks is that I am doing it all out of my own pocket because again the rigamorle of getting grants or low cost financing is so daunting that I just do not have the time for it.

Is there anyone else out there that is having simmilar experience to mine? Are ther other similar projects out there? By the way, these houses are selling for $155k turne key (I will not reveal my identity so that knowone will think I am spamming. Three out of the four homes are sold and number four is not far off) I truly feel that this aproach to new home construction is what could make a difference in the long run.

I someone could help me figure out how to post pics and if others are interested in seeing them, I would be happy to put them up.

mike95490 · September 2008

Re: How do we get more people into Solar?

Pics & floor plan would be nice. Batteries in a shed, garage, or closet?
What the COLDest expected temps in the winter ?
Central heat / air, or room units?

System2 · September 2008

Re: How do we get more people into Solar?

Ther are no load bering walls in the interior so floor plan is compleetly up to the costomer. Winter temps can be -20. Foundation is ICF's. Rim board is insulated to R-50, R-19 in the walls w/insulated vinyl on the outside brings it up to R-22 for the walls. R-50 in the atic. Principal heat is Rani direct vent and propane on demand hot water. Most costomers are opting for a wood stove or pellet stove in the basement as their principal heat. Stove and cloths dryer are also propane.

System2 · September 2008

Re: How do we get more people into Solar?

Sorry, missed one. Bats are in a vented box in the basement.

System2 · September 2008

Re: How do we get more people into Solar?

here is the site and my job tailer.

mike95490 · September 2008

Re: How do we get more people into Solar?

thoughtforward wrote: »

Bats are in a vented box in the basement.

Mine like to fly up to the attic.

Nice job trailer. What size array is on it ?? Same system as goes into the house ?

System2 · September 2008

Re: How do we get more people into Solar?

The aray is 8 Mitsubishi 125w panells, Xantrex 4024 inverter w/ outback MX 60 and a flexware 400. Yes, the same system or one similar is going into the house. The trailer is also a show peice. It has the Direct vent heater, on demand hot water and apliance package that goes into the house. I am using it prove the viability of solar for the aplication. If it can run a job site it should be able to run a house that is designed for it. In fact, only half the aray is hooked up right now and we have had no problems so far.

System2 · September 2008

Re: How do we get more people into Solar?

The number one way to get cheaper technology is education. You can build most of this stuff yourself. Less the inverter or batteries. That would be the most expensive portion to your endevours.

Just keep it simple silly. Remeber to KISS your project. Whatever it may be. In my feild we say "don't nuke it out, this ain't rocket science!". Your pv panels are easy to build. Just get the right size, sequence, number and line size correct for your needs. Then comes the construction materials for framing, mounting or installing. Next comes the wiring and "grid set up" for your home/cabin/abode.

So, you are looking at learning electrical principals (just the basics). Construction and house framing/building is another skill to pick up on... you don't need to be a master just be aware of what those skills are and be able to apply the small and basic principles.

This is easy. Unless you want the convienence and take some of the hardwork out of it.... you will pay more, it is a fact. Knowledge is power and it saves you money.

How do we get more people into Solar?

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