Signed contract on 6KW system last week. Had site eval today...

System
System Posts: 2,511 admin
in Grid Tie and Grid Interactive Systems #1
I really wanted to use one of the smaller local guys where I live, but none of them seem to have their act together. The third company, after coming out to look at the site was for a roof mount 6048 Watt DC (28 Sharp 216's and an SMA 5000). The total system price quoted(includes everything from wiring to permit fees) was $38900. The down side is that they didn't carry the rebate. But I was willing to overlook that to keep the business local and the money in the community.

I told them that I was going to accept their bid and sent back the signed estimate. I then get an email telling me that the guy who quoted it accidently quoted me for a "large commercial rooftop installation" and that a residential install was going to be substantially more.....$48K. In fact, it was the most expensive quote I'd gotten from anyone.

I was stunned especially given the following facts:

1) They'd been out to my place and had seen what was involved.
2) My original contact was with the estimator that actually did the estimate knew that I had planned to do my own install but I would prefer to hire someone locally provided they could come close to my own price to do it.

Two other companies essentially did the same thing.

So I ended up going with REC solar. They're about an hour away from where I live. But so far, they seem to have their act together more than anyone else.

The site eval was today. The came out with a solmetric suneye, measured everything, looked inside the attic, and took lots of pictures. The engineer told me that the site was ideal for both solar efficiency and ease of install and as a result it shouldn't change the estimate.

I'll get the final contract next week. We'll see then if they stick to the original estimate or not.

The system quote from REC solar is 32 Mitsubishi 185's and an SMA 5000 US for $39700. After the rebates, it'll be a hair under $29K.
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #2
    Re: Signed contract on 6KW system last week. Had site eval today...

    sorry to hear of you having so much bad luck. i hope this one works out for you ok. check with the bbb too to see if they may have any complaints. i see you are in fresno by your ip address and maybe somebody is aware of a good one that you can get another bid on the job.
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #3
    Re: Signed contract on 6KW system last week. Had site eval today...

    Gosh, if you have a "bid" don't they have to honor it if you put a deposit down ?

    Of course the survey should happen BEFORE the bid, and any survey fee, apply to the contract.

    I guess you have it straightened out now though.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    #4
    Re: Signed contract on 6KW system last week. Had site eval today...

    If you want to save some $$ , consider two things

    First, use "B" grade panels, will save you 1-1.50 watt, check out the Evergreen's at www.sunelec.com ... The ES-190-B are 700.00 panel. 30 of them would run you 21K plus shipping,

    Also consider a Xantrex GT5.0, they have a street price of about $800 less the and SMA 5K unit http://www.beyondoilsolar.com/inverters.htm

    So the hardware going this route would be @ 25K. I think you will find if you offer to purchase the panels and inverter and have the install do everything else, they will be really happy as it saves them having to float the money for the rebate, you wind with a better price for the installation
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  • crewzer
    crewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
    #5
    Re: Signed contract on 6KW system last week. Had site eval today...
    6048 Watt DC (28 Sharp 216's and an SMA 5000).
    32 Mitsubishi 185's and an SMA 5000 US
    Depending on your location’s ambient temperatures, especially in the winter, either ~6 kW array might to be too large for the SMA 5000. You might want to try out the sizing tools offered by SMA and Xantrex. See:

    http://www.sma-america.com/solar-technology/solar-design-tools/index.html#
    http://www.xantrex.com/support/gtsizing/index.asp

    Also note that a roof mounted array may not be the optimal azimuth alignment and/or the best tilt angle. Errors in either of these axes will reduce your system's power output. You can model various installation geometries for your location using this tool:

    http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/codes_algs/PVWATTS/version1/


    Additionally, a roof-mounted array (i.e., parallel to roof surface with less than 6” air gap) will operate at fairly high temperatures and therefore likely suffer an ~5% power reduction compared to a correctly tilted array mounted on a horizontal surface.

    See: http://www.sma-america.com/solar-technology/servicesupport/glossary/index.html#20

    HTH,
    Jim / crewzer
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  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    #6
    Re: Signed contract on 6KW system last week. Had site eval today...
    Solar Guppy wrote: »
    If you want to save some $$ , consider two things

    First, use "B" grade panels, will save you 1-1.50 watt, check out the Evergreen's at www.sunelec.com ... The ES-190-B are 700.00 panel. 30 of them would run you 21K plus shipping,

    Also consider a Xantrex GT5.0, they have a street price of about $800 less the and SMA 5K unit http://www.beyondoilsolar.com/inverters.htm

    So the hardware going this route would be @ 25K. I think you will find if you offer to purchase the panels and inverter and have the install do everything else, they will be really happy as it saves them having to float the money for the rebate, you wind with a better price for the installation

    If I were doing a self install, that would have been the route I'd gone. I already asked all of the installers, 3 local and two in Fresno, if they'd use equipment that I bought instead. The answer from all of them is that it would increase the installation labor more than the savings I would get from buying the b grade panels because their dealer pricing wasn't much more than the $662 I was quoting for the ES-180-B panels. One installer, Arise Ventures, told me their ES-180-A price was $700, so if I went that route, the labor would go from about $7K to $14K(includes mounting hardware and wiring). They were willing to do that, but it would cost more and they wouldn't provide a warranty. Basically, they were being upfront in telling me that they make most of their money on the panel markup.

    Ultimately, if REC surprises me by upping the contract from the estimate after such a rosy site eval, I'll probably pick the DIY route after all. That's assuming that the b-grade panels qualify for the CA state rebate, because if they don't, the cost for me to do it myself will be nearly identical to REC solar's quote minus the rebates.

    Also, if I do it myself, I'll end up doing a ground mount because I don't want to mess with the roof myself. I have the space but it does mean wiping out a bit of landscaping and a lot of sprinkler work which I certainly do myself.

    The cost for me to do it myself would run about $31K in materials. B Panels + inverter + tilt racking + cabling + sales tax on all of that as CA requires it before you can cant the rebate. After about $9K in state and $2K and fed, that leaves me with a final cost of $20K, or about $10K less than the REC solar quote.

    Also, there is no ground mount location that will be anywhere near as good as my roof unless I'm willing to stick it in the middle of the yard which my wife has absolutely forbidden. The first choice is the area to the right of the driveway. That entire section of lawn and shrubs would come out and the panels would be mounted pretty close to the fence but facing more south than the due south/west angle of the fenceline. The neighbor in the upper right has a lot of trees on the other side of his fence that will block the first 2 hours of sunlight. The west side of the property is now full of trees on both my side and the neighbors side so there's a lot of shading there now that will kill the late afternoon sun. Not ideal for E6. Plus that location would be pretty far from the service panel which is between the house and the garage. The entire structure is 150 feet from east to west.

    Here's an areal. The south side of the property is wide open except that there's a house being built on the lot south of us and there will be fences, trees, and landscaping, so placing along the south end is out.

    261966090_hA9aK-L.jpg

    The roof is fairly ideal for E6 as it faces about 15 degrees west of due south and it's far enough back and much higher so that future shading shouldn't be an issue.
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  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    #7
    Re: Signed contract on 6KW system last week. Had site eval today...

    I would suggest you do ground mount ( adjustable tilt ) and place it on the property line on the back yard, panels facing the house ( which I assume is south. You only need to get about 30 feet away from the house to be shadow free for most the day

    This was the first system I did
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  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    #8
    Re: Signed contract on 6KW system last week. Had site eval today...

    No, that is facing north. The long property line on the back yard is the south side of the lot.
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  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    #9
    Re: Signed contract on 6KW system last week. Had site eval today...

    I forgot to factor in shipping on my DIY price, so add another $500 or so for that.
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  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    #10
    Re: Signed contract on 6KW system last week. Had site eval today...

    OK, the on the fence ( either side ) would be fine and no encroach in to the yard more than 10 feet. Being SE or SW facing will make no measurable difference in harvest from the panels, hopefully the wife will allow one of the side to have an array on the fence on either side if the house , garage side would be best as no trees
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  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    #11
    Re: Signed contract on 6KW system last week. Had site eval today...

    If you look real carefully on the right location you outlined, just to to the right of it is a Redwood tree to the right of my neighbors gazebo. In this picture, it's only about 10 feet tall. Now it's 30 feet tall and about 4 times as wide. According to the Solmetric Suneye, it's blocking about the first 3.5 hours of usable sunlight.

    Now further up along the fence the conditions are better, just to the right of the driveway. There my neighbors trees will only block about the first 2 hours of usable sun. If I did a ground mount, it would be there.

    To the left is all trees now on both sides of the fence which would result in losing about 3 hours of usable sun in the late afternoon. Plus, it's facing south east which is nowhere near as optimal for E6.

    If I could afford it, I'd by a tracker mount and stick the panels high up off the ground in the middle of the yard.
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  • autoxsteve
    autoxsteve Solar Expert Posts: 114 ✭✭✭✭
    #12
    Re: Signed contract on 6KW system last week. Had site eval today...

    Where are you located?

    I had a great experience with REC solar and two of my neighbors have as well. I'm nearing 2 MWh of output since Mar 17 (2-1/2 months).

    I'm sure you'll be pleased with their installation and service...
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  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    #13
    Re: Signed contract on 6KW system last week. Had site eval today...

    Located in Merced, CA. The REC location is Fresno, CA.

    I'm keeping my fingers crossed :)
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  • wilsonbh
    wilsonbh Solar Expert Posts: 57 ✭✭✭
    #14
    Re: Signed contract on 6KW system last week. Had site eval today...

    I used to live in Merced while stationed at Castle AFB. Was a great place to live and my family and myself both miss it greatly.

    Billy
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  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    #15
    Re: Signed contract on 6KW system last week. Had site eval today...

    Just got the engineering plans back yesterday showing the panel layout. My rebate went up about $300 from the initial estimate and the sun exposure is at 97%. Of course this means the estimated yearly KWH output went up as well and the payback time dropped by about a year.

    It's a roof layout mostly on the backside of the garage. It's facing about 20 degrees to the right of due south which is very good for TOU.
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  • autoxsteve
    autoxsteve Solar Expert Posts: 114 ✭✭✭✭
    #16
    Re: Signed contract on 6KW system last week. Had site eval today...

    your layout sounds very similar to my home's. My roof 'azimuth' is 205 deg true, which is 25 deg W of due south. I get output until sunset unless the marine layer rolls in.

    Keep us posted on your progress. I suspect you'll have install completed b4 Jul 4....
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  • newenergy
    newenergy Solar Expert Posts: 291 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #17
    Re: Signed contract on 6KW system last week. Had site eval today...

    Average installed price for your size system in CA (most recent data is from 2006) is $7.43/W, so you're getting a very good price and maybe RECSolar is losing money. They are privately held so it's hard to find out, but if they are losing money it wouldn't be a shock the way Akeena is losing money and I'm sure SolarCity must be losing a ton.
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  • newenergy
    newenergy Solar Expert Posts: 291 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #18
    Re: Signed contract on 6KW system last week. Had site eval today...

    https://csi.powerclerk.com/Default.aspx

    If you go here you can look up installation costs. Your price is lower than anything I found including other REC Solar projects.
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  • Windsun
    Windsun Solar Expert Posts: 1,164 ✭✭
    #19
    Re: Signed contract on 6KW system last week. Had site eval today...
    newenergy wrote: »
    Average installed price for your size system in CA (most recent data is from 2006) is $7.43/W, so you're getting a very good price and maybe RECSolar is losing money. They are privately held so it's hard to find out, but if they are losing money it wouldn't be a shock the way Akeena is losing money and I'm sure SolarCity must be losing a ton.

    With the cost of permits and overhead now, I am surprised that anyone is making money on anything but large commercial installs.
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  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    #20
    Re: Signed contract on 6KW system last week. Had site eval today...
    newenergy wrote: »
    Average installed price for your size system in CA (most recent data is from 2006) is $7.43/W, so you're getting a very good price and maybe RECSolar is losing money. They are privately held so it's hard to find out, but if they are losing money it wouldn't be a shock the way Akeena is losing money and I'm sure SolarCity must be losing a ton.

    Is that average before rebates? The installed system price in my case is $7.88 / w before the rebates, so that would be higher than average.

    The price after the rebates is about $5.68.
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  • newenergy
    newenergy Solar Expert Posts: 291 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #21
    Re: Signed contract on 6KW system last week. Had site eval today...
    sorka wrote: »
    Is that average before rebates? The installed system price in my case is $7.88 / w before the rebates, so that would be higher than average.

    The price after the rebates is about $5.68.

    I must have missed something.

    I thought REC gave you a quote for $39700 for 32 185W panels which is $6.71 per watt. Were you quoting watts AC as opposed to DC or CEC rating rather than STC or was the real price more?

    I'm pretty sure the figure I was quoting was nameplate or STC rating, but I can't find the source now.
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  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    #22
    Re: Signed contract on 6KW system last week. Had site eval today...

    I'm quoting the cost per AC watt, not DC watt. 32 x 185 = 5920 DC watts = 5033 CEC-AC watts.

    Isn't the installed called always quoted on AC watts?
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  • newenergy
    newenergy Solar Expert Posts: 291 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #23
    Re: Signed contract on 6KW system last week. Had site eval today...
    sorka wrote: »
    I'm quoting the cost per AC watt, not DC watt. 32 x 185 = 5920 DC watts = 5033 CEC-AC watts.

    Isn't the installed called always quoted on AC watts?

    I don't think so.

    Also, I took the program data from the CSI powerclerk and found the average of the last 2878 solar installations and got an average of $9.03 per watt DC for systems installed in SCE (I'm in SCE, maybe you are PGE). I'm back to saying you are really really really getting a good price.

    I looked up some REC solar jobs in central CA and they are pretty much $7.8-$9/watt DC. I didn't want to search forever, but found a pretty good comparable. REC solar did a 5700W system in Tracy for $45,300. That's $7.95/W. The reservation was reserved 2/28/2008. It's definitely the DC nameplate rating. It shows the CEC rating as 4790W. The modules used are Evergreen 190s which are comparably priced to the Mitsus. I get a better price for the Evergreens.

    Your conversion to AC is a bit optimistic. Even 80% of STC is often consered optimistic. CEC for your panel is 163.5W which would give you 5232 and then inverter efficiency is listed at 95.5%, but you are working the 5kw inverter pretty hard and if you look at efficiency charts for inverters you'll see they drop off when you head towards capacity. You're going to have other losses from dust/dirt, wiring, any imperfection in orientation, and heat.
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  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    #24
    Re: Signed contract on 6KW system last week. Had site eval today...

    So then basically you're saying I got a really good deal then.

    As far as over driving the 5000US, I totally concur. I posted a question about this just 2 days ago in the general forum:

    http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?t=2992

    I've asked REC to revise the quote to use the SB7000US as the 6000 won't allow allow adding more capacity later on without rewiring the existing strings.
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  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    #25
    Re: Signed contract on 6KW system last week. Had site eval today...

    Cool! I downloaded the 2MB compressed CSI Program Data file and my reservation request was in there.
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  • newenergy
    newenergy Solar Expert Posts: 291 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #26
    Re: Signed contract on 6KW system last week. Had site eval today...

    Yeah, I think I see your system on there. It shows 5.92kw in Merced from REC, but it doesn't show a price - well it shows $0. I didn't dload it again though, so maybe they updated.

    Keep up posted. Also, was this their first price or did you haggle?
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  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    #27
    Re: Signed contract on 6KW system last week. Had site eval today...

    This was their first price. It's also going through Costco as REC solar is their authorized solar reseller. So maybe that has something to do with the price.

    I had other bids from other companies that were similar but they all backed out saying they'd made a mistake on the quote. Not backed out, but raised the price a lot and I backed out. Once company raised their bid from $38K to $48K because they said they'd made a calculation error.
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  • newenergy
    newenergy Solar Expert Posts: 291 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #28
    Re: Signed contract on 6KW system last week. Had site eval today...

    I mentioned the low price to someone else in the business and he suggested that it's not uncommon for installers to quote really low in order to win the bid and then jack up the price.
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #29
    Re: Signed contract on 6KW system last week. Had site eval today...
    newenergy wrote: »
    I mentioned the low price to someone else in the business and he suggested that it's not uncommon for installers to quote really low in order to win the bid and then jack up the price.

    now that's stupid and risky for an installer as well as anybody else in business to do because to offer a service at $x and have a potential customer accept it constitutes a binding contract. if the offer is verbal the customer may bear the burden of proof that the offer at $x was made and for what, but if proven the installer is held to it and cannot just lure people in fraudulently to jackup the price later.
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  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    #30
    Re: Signed contract on 6KW system last week. Had site eval today...

    The contract price is written in stone. It also says that should there be unforeseen problems, they reserve the right to raise the price but it also says I have the option of completely backing out should that be necessary. It was already border line enough for me to consider doing my own install. If the price went up any further, that's what I'd do in the end. Although given where the economy has been going in the last few weeks, I'm actually having second thoughts about outlaying so much cash.
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #31
    Re: Signed contract on 6KW system last week. Had site eval today...

    Lay the cash out while they are hungry, but follow a progress payment schedule,
    10% down.
    30% on material delivery
    20% racks installed
    20% PV installed
    20% inspection & utility signoff
    or make your own schedule
    get lien releases at each payment.

    You don't want to pay a bunch up front, and then have them bail, leaving your roof all torn up.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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