Solar for electric scooter

hai

my friend has brought a electric scooter,
the battery is 60V 38Ah battery
we want to charge it using solar power.
please tell me what are the components required to charge this daily. how many panels and the type of charge controller.

Also we have a 140W solar panle and a 12/24V 30A steca charge controller with us. How much time will it take to charge using one 140 W panel and this charge controller. we have enough sun here to about 6-7 hrs of full sun
Can we charge the 60V battery using this charge controller. i also want to know the size of the cable or battery inter connector to be used.

The charger which the vehicle having is of 5A 110-250V/50-60hz rating, so to charge the vehicle daily with solar, can we remove the charger and connect the solar charge controller cable there.. will it affect the connection cables as the cable coming from the battery will be rated for 5A charger( i hope so), since the only cable coming out of the vehicle is the small wires to connect the charger (the one to charge from the normal sockets)

please give me a solution .. how to do this

kindly help us

Comments

  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,193 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar for electric scooter

    please read the thread here - http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?t=2766
    about 1/2 way down, is a brief discussion on how to calculate this yourself.
    Prepare to get your check book out.

    The gist of it is, several panels, charge controller, deep cycle battery, and sine wave inverter to power your regular charger.

    What would be good to know is
    Type of battery LeadAcid / NiMh / LiIon
    any indication of how much power you consume in an average day
    Even though the sun is up 6 hours, you need an expensive sun tracker, to harvest 6 hours of sun, otherwise, with the less than optimum angles, you only have 4 - 5 good charging hours.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar for electric scooter

    there is a big clue as to what you need by the charger itself. minimumly it states 5a (assuming this is the dc output amps and not the ac input amps). it will probably have a dc output of at least 75v to charge your 60v battery. 75v x 5a=375w. for a solar charging system there will be conversions and losses in them making the roughly estimated minimal need to be about 500w inputted. also this only works when the sun is shining brightly so the system may need a couple of days to complete a charge, but may be 1 day or less if not discharged very far to begin with. btw, your charge rate with 5a going into a 38ah battery bank is 13.16%.
  • BrockBrock Solar Expert Posts: 633 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar for electric scooter

    Wizaarz, it isn't a Z20 is it? There aren't many 60v bikes. Anyway I added a 12v lead to each of my batteries. I charge mine from my solar array and inverter so it's easy, but you could charge them individually, but again that would take 5 charge controllers and 5 solar panels of sufficient size. I mostly broke mine out in to the separate batteries so I don't get an imbalance in the batteries trying to charge them all in series.

    The cheapest practical way is to grid tie solar and charge via grid
    3kw solar PV, 8 L16's, xw 5548, Honda eu2000i, iota DLS-54-13, Leaf EV, 4 ton horizontal geothermal, grid tied - Green Bay, WI
  • System2System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: Solar for electric scooter

    Thank you brock, niel and mike.. i could get few ideas which i was not aware from your posts, but still am confused of few more things...

    yesterday i had consulted with a solar product dealer..

    what i was told is that

    i can only charge a 60V battery using a 60V charger and also we need panels that can generate more than 60V.. ie we need 5*12V system=60V
    as during charging the battery require 14+ volts, the 12v panels generate 16V ...

    this was the explanation given to me......... is this absolutely right...
    or still can i charge the battery with the 140W panle and a 12/24v chargeri have with me...

    Another matter is as in the posts we can do it by separating the batteries but also i have heard that while charging the batteries separately and connecting them together every time will affect the life of batteries as these batteries will have different state of charge.. so the charge flows with in them.. is this true???????


    Al niel.... the 5A charger is the Ac charger, that which has a connection to out Ac outlet and another end to the two wire of battery. My confusion is that if we connect the solar directly ie the wires from the solar charge controller directly to the the two wires coming out of the battery, will the current affect the wires, as sometimes the current coming from the controller may be more than what it can withstand... the wires are not that thick.. also i was confused since it was connected to a 5A Ac charger.

    the vehicle is zapino.. from zap... the batter what they ve written is greensaver silicon battery........... i hope it is a lead battery with silicon content
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,193 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar for electric scooter
    wizaarz wrote: »
    the vehicle is zapino.. from zap... the batter what they ve written is greensaver silicon battery........... i hope it is a lead battery with silicon content[/COLOR]

    I guess that it's a lead acid battery, with some sand in the cells. Otherwise, there is no such thing as a silicon battery.

    re:charging
    While you can directly connect your panels to each 12V battery, or use a car charger on each one, one at a time. I'd advise NOT to. Not knowing the type of battery, if they are AGM sealed style cells, even a little overcharge will vent water, and you will loose capacity. Stick with running the factory charger off a sine inverter or household power. The factory charger has the proper charge algorithm for the batteries.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • System2System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: Solar for electric scooter

    ya thats right factory chargers are the good ones .. but still want to try cheaper solar...

    i hope its lead acid... coz i read in few internet articles about these type of lead acis batteries.. silicon is added for faster charging...
  • Solar GuppySolar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,963 ✭✭✭
    Re: Solar for electric scooter

    There is no such thing as "cheaper solar"
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar for electric scooter

    i have never heard of the following statement you have made so beware.
    "silicon is added for faster charging..."
    do not add silicon to any battery thinking this will do anything good and it will most likely ruin the battery.

    unless you know what you're doing then only go through the supplied ac charger. you can come up with solar generated ac power of the wattage you'll need, but you need to do some reading to educate yourself as to how to do it. some here have already lightly covered what's needed to do that.
  • WindsunWindsun Solar Expert Posts: 1,164 ✭✭
    Re: Solar for electric scooter
    There is no such thing as "cheaper solar"

    You mean all these $1 a watt hypers have been lying to us? :confused:

    A chinese company has been touting Silicone Batteries for scooters etc. No details but they appear to be a Sodium Silicate variation of a regular Alkaline cells. Huge voltage variation in charge and discharge, so I suspect of limited use, and nobody outside of China seems to make them.

    At this point I remain skeptical of their touted benefits. And I think they mean Silicon, not Silicone, two different things.
  • BrockBrock Solar Expert Posts: 633 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar for electric scooter

    Yes, they seem to be touting the silicon cells, they are really expensive and have different charge / discharge characteristics compared to lead acid. Some of the electric motorcycles are even using li-ion cells now, way lighter and can push power out faster, again way more expensive and very picky about charge rates and voltages. I would second what Niel said and stick with the supplied charger since a typical solar charger, even at 60v will be out of line.
    3kw solar PV, 8 L16's, xw 5548, Honda eu2000i, iota DLS-54-13, Leaf EV, 4 ton horizontal geothermal, grid tied - Green Bay, WI
  • System2System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: Solar for electric scooter
    niel wrote: »
    there is a big clue as to what you need by the charger itself. minimumly it states 5a (assuming this is the dc output amps and not the ac input amps). it will probably have a dc output of at least 75v to charge your 60v battery. 75v x 5a=375w. for a solar charging system there will be conversions and losses in them making the roughly estimated minimal need to be about 500w inputted. also this only works when the sun is shining brightly so the system may need a couple of days to complete a charge, but may be 1 day or less if not discharged very far to begin with. btw, your charge rate with 5a going into a 38ah battery bank is 13.16%.

    I have been doing so research on the charge controllers with a similar idea to recharge my EV truck directly. The battery pack is 144V series wired. Ideally I would like to find a charge controller that would be able to output the 144V, but so far all I have found id 12 or 24VDC output. Does anyone know of a controller that will work on a 144VDC pack?

    Thank you in advance,
    Kerry
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar for electric scooter

    there aren't any that i'd be aware of at this time. we discussed this a few years back on coming up with something for somebody else that wanted to do this. the battery actually consists of 120 of d sized rechargeable batteries. even if you had the controller, you'd need in excess of 200v at at least 1/2a from pvs to feed a charger that i don't believe they give you access to the battery leads to give them a charge. maybe things have changed somewhat since then, but the bulk of the problems still exist in trying to do this.
    personnally, i think it is a good idea as even a small pv used on the roof of the car while going down the road with an upconversion to the proper charge voltage and an appropriate charger could supplement the power just like hitting the brakes would on many of the hybrids. long travels on highways don't afford hitting the brakes much.
    many would like to charge the battery while at home, but during most times the sun is out the car would probably be out too, be it at work, shopping, or whatever.
  • System2System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: Solar for electric scooter

    Zap say it is a green saven silicon batteries... they are not mentioning what type of batteries are they..... some where i read.. silicon batteries ahve faster reacharging capacity

    http://www.greensaver-gst.com/
    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/10/leadacid_batter.html

    we tested the vehicle.. it cna run 40Km at a stretch.. but the speed is too low. either 30Km or 60Max.. but cant run too long for 60Km/hr.. it shifts back to 30km/hr...

    i want to try solar for this.. for reacharging..
    as said i have only a 12V , 140watt panel and a 12/24V soalr charge controller.......
    but i hope i cannot do anything with these as per the replies i got..

    about the charger. Xantrex is having a 12v -60V charger.. it comes around 500$

    i know solar is not cheap but want to know how to do this on this 60v battery... how many panles etc.. the solution..

    regarding charge controllers of higher versions, a salesman in a chinese trader told me that they can make up to 72V but only ordered in big nos

    i also have another doubt..... see it is a 60v 38A battery comes to 2280W
    when this is chareged from a 5A Amp charger From 240V... it comes to 1200W only how doe sthe actual charging takes place.. how is this calculation.. th company say it takes from 4-6 hrs for complete charging.. can anyone explain the things here..
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,193 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar for electric scooter
    wizaarz wrote: »
    Zap say it is a green saven silicon batteries... they are not mentioning what type of batteries are they..... some where i read.. silicon batteries ahve faster reacharging capacity

    how is this calculation.. th company say it takes from 4-6 hrs for complete charging.. can anyone explain the things here..

    I can't explain, with my limited data, how they do it.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar for electric scooter

    wizaarz,
    you don't need another charger as you have one.
    that is 5a at 60v and not at 240v. the current at 240v is probably around 1.5a. the outputted voltage needs to be higher than 60v though to effect a charge into the batteries so some power is lost in the charge process. if it is needing a 240vac input then go with an inverter that outputs 240vac. also observe the hz needed for the charger be it 50 or 60hz. i already mentioned what you'd roughly need into the charger to get that much output to charge the batteries. i do not know if the charger will like it or operate with a smaller amount of inputted power like that of your single pv, but it will certainly take a very long time if at all to give the batteries their charge. there is a point of the current being too small to charge batteries and that can vary somewhat with battery make, type, and even age, but below a 3% rate we don't recommend. 3%x38ah=1.14a. i also don't know if you'd be able to feed a 24v pv directly to the inverter as many inverters need a battery/controller to operate. this may allow you to deplete your 24v buffer battery while charging up your 60v battery due to insufficient charge from the sun.
    i still contend that if you want to do this that you should do some more reading in order to learn more of what it is you are doing and/or can do.
  • System2System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: Solar for electric scooter

    i got you niel.. i am learning by interacting with you experts..

    so can charge it if i buy a inverter...

    i also have a Ac delco battery 12V 100Ah car battery...

    so if i buy a inverter can i charge this from solar after storing it in the battery

    so a 12V 140W panel + 12/24 STECA charge controller + 12V 100Ah Ac delco battery + inverter

    is the above a solution

    can this batetry and inverter charge the 60V 38Ah battery ...... how long does it take to charge in this way
    what should be the rating of the inverter and should i add more batteries .. if yes what should be the battery capacity and voltage
    also how fast can i recharge

    please help


    also one more doubt... if its 5A at 60v the its 300
    so total 60v * 38Ah = 2280W
    2280/300 = 7.6 hours
    is this calculation right

    at present i can charge the 60V 38Ah battery in 3 hours approximately
    so does it mean that 60 V * 5A =300 *3hrs = 900... its only uses its 900W during the run
    am i totally wrong or can anyone correct me........
  • RoderickRoderick Solar Expert Posts: 253 ✭✭
    Re: Solar for electric scooter
    wizaarz wrote: »
    i got you niel.. i am learning by interacting with you experts..

    ...
    can this batetry and inverter charge the 60V 38Ah battery ...... how long does it take to charge in this way
    ...

    also one more doubt... if its 5A at 60v the its 300
    so total 60v * 38Ah = 2280W
    2280/300 = 7.6 hours
    is this calculation right

    at present i can charge the 60V 38Ah battery in 3 hours approximately
    so does it mean that 60 V * 5A =300 *3hrs = 900... its only uses its 900W during the run
    am i totally wrong or can anyone correct me........

    Just to be sure, could you check the battery again and make sure that it isn't 3.8 AH? A 2 kWh battery seems awfully big for a scooter, but 200 wH would seem to be about right.
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar for electric scooter

    roderick,
    he was talking watthours and not amphours. 1 amphour on a 12v battery would translate to 12watthours so 2kwh on a battery isn't as big as it would seem. a typical 100ah battery would yield 1200wh or 1.2kwh.
    wiz,
    when we talk of batteries we like to talk of them in amphours or ah. also note that car batteries are for starting cars and not deep discharges as that will destroy a car battery.
    as to what your battery is getting during a charge we can't say for sure without measuring it. it is possible it is 5amp, but it could be more or even less too.
    what is being proposed is a standalone system that will drive your charger. pvs to controller to battery(s) to inverter to charger to scooter batteries along with fuses and switches. this is lossy in its conversion processes to do and care would have to be had to not drain the battery driving the inverter too far. to avoid this would mean a direct gridtie arrangement, but this would definitely mean more pvs to run the gridtie inverter. they do make some now to accept lower voltages than the typically several hundred volts needed by most gt inverters, but it will be more than 1 pv i would suspect in either case in order to charge the scooter. in light of your knowledge i advise a gridtie setup.
  • BrockBrock Solar Expert Posts: 633 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar for electric scooter

    The battery pack on the scooter is actually five 12v 38 ah batteries wired in series for 60 volts, they are about the size of a riding lawn more battery, maybe a bit larger. The electric motor pulls about 120 amps at 60v wide open. They are approaching motorcycle status as far as power and speed go.

    Lets say the bike is totally dead (which you shouldn't do because it is VERY hard on the batteries) you would need 38x12=450w/hr per battery or 2200w/hr for the whole bike. Assuming 90% charging loss you need about 2500 w/hr. When using an inverter to take you solar battery up to 120vac that might be 80% efficient so you would need over 3000 w/hr. A typical 90-ah 12v marine battery can hold 100x12 or about 1200 w/hr as Niel noted. So you would need at least 6 of those to not drop below 50% charge. And to top that off if you did pull 3000 w/hr out and had to recharge it with that solar panel 140w might get you 100 w/hr so max 500 w/hr a day or 6 days to recharge the bank.

    Even if you ran the bike to 50% dead you would still need 1500 w/hr to charge it or 3 days of full sun and at least 2 of those larger deep cycle solar storage batteries.

    Basically your math is close just remember that charging is typically 80% (10% loss on the batteries and 10% on the charger) and a typical inverter might loose 20%.

    In you case pulling 900 w/hr out on your trip a single battery wouldn’t be enough and would take two days in full sun to recharge that much with your 140w panel. So you would need a minimum of two I would recommend three panels and a minimum of two again I would recommend three of the deep cycle batteries.

    Or you could ride less or go slower and use less power ;)
    3kw solar PV, 8 L16's, xw 5548, Honda eu2000i, iota DLS-54-13, Leaf EV, 4 ton horizontal geothermal, grid tied - Green Bay, WI
  • System2System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: Solar for electric scooter

    thanks brock.. thanks everyone

    i hope i was wrong in calculation...
    let me a bit more study will be back soon
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