What should I do on my roof?

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Gooserider
Gooserider Solar Expert Posts: 48
(I don't know how to play the fiddle...*:D*)

Seriously, I'm debating what sort of solar might be best on our roof. My GF and I live in a suburban house in MA, latitude 42.583, we have a roof with a 12/12 pitch and one side facing pretty much due south. As I understand it, this would be about a perfect angle for mounting panels flat on the roof, correct?

We have a lot of woods on the lot, but the trees south of the house are far enough away I don't think they are a problem. We do have some 70'+ red oaks to the east and west of the house that don't overhang the roof but do provide some shadows. I could take them out, but don't really want to as they are nice trees. There is also a tall chimney on the west end of the roof that casts a pretty good, but narrow shadow. I haven't measured exactly, but estimate there is about 4-500 square feet of South facing roof surface.

Current energy:
* We mostly heat w/ wood in an EPAII approved stove, about 4 cords / season, I get log-length and process it myself - cost ?
* Natural Gas for backup heat (HVAC) DHW, cooking and clothes dryer - 20-30 therms /mo - $1.73 / therm
* Electric for the rest, 800-2,000 kWH / month, the big hits being the central AC (high efficiency unit) and swimming pool pumps (in-ground ~16Kgal) - $0.154 kWh

We would like to do something that would either make a serious dent in our utility bills, or improve our comfort level, preferably both. We also would prefer something that is reasonably priced and has a fairly short payback time.

My take is that I basically have three options, and am trying to decide what the best approach would be to make use of our limited roof space. I can put up grid tied PV, or do solar water heating for DHW, House heat, and / or pool heat.


I've done some rough estimates using the online estimator from FindSolar.com (How good are they, assuming you gave them as good an input as possible?)

Solar PV - 5.6 - 8.4kW of peak power, going for 7kW, they want 700 sq feet, and estimate $53K in cost (after gov't subsidies) with an 11-18 year payback. This is more are than we have in roof, and the cost seems awfully high, with a long payback. It would probably make the biggest dent in our electric bills, but not do much for comfort, and it's a big investment. Aside from doing the install myself, there isn't much I can do to reduce the costs (and who knows what that would do to subsidies and / or permitting, etc.)

Solar Pool Heat - 291 sqft, installed cost about $5K. We don't currently heat the pool at all, so it is "refreshing" (that's spelled C-O-L-D!) for most of the season, which limits our use of it. Warming the pool would increase our comfort, but since we don't currently pay anything for heat, there is no real way to figure a payback. It also means that the roof would only be doing useful work during the approximately 6 months of pool season.
Could probably reduce that cost considerably by home-brew panels, and self install, no impact on subsidies since there are none.

Solar DHW - The FindSolar folks didn't offer a "whole house heat" option, but solar DHW was the smallest panel size - 32.3 sqft, and about $5K installed price, $2.5K after subsidies. Doing a bigger number of panels, (how many more?) we could probably put some form of radiant heat into the house as well, which would give us increased comfort and a dent in our gas bills and reduce the amount of wood we need to burn. In addition, since we wouldn't be needing as much heat in the summer, so we could use the pool as a "heat dump" and get pool heating (at perhaps lower efficiency) as a "freebie"... I could probably reduce costs considerably by doing a good bit of self install and home-brew panel construction as well, and have fewer permitting and code restrictions to deal with.

What would you do if it was your roof?

Gooserider

Comments

  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Re: What should I do on my roof?

    Where are the forecasts for your electric rates ? 10% increase each year ? Gas/Propane ?

    Any shadows will severely impact PV electric panels. The shadow creates a high resistance, and that effects the entire string. Could be solved by arranging one string to get shadowed, and the others not.

    What's the sun like in the winter, no direct sun = no PV, but your could get heat with the evacuated glass tubes.

    Conservation. Big savings there, if you haven't done so. Look at the pool pump, use a timer, or throw out the pool, unless you soak in it on the hot summer months.

    I'd be tempted to throttle back on the electric, and more for the DHW, and heat the pool with any surplus. Solar water panels can tolerate a bit of shadow, and it's just a straight % loss.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • Gooserider
    Gooserider Solar Expert Posts: 48
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    Re: What should I do on my roof?

    Don't have real forcasts on rates other than "UP":grrbut I'm not sure how much faith I put in the forecasts at any rate. This is New England, so a good part of our grid power is fossil fuel based, and we are seeing increases there for sure, just like everyone else. FWIW the SolarFinder estimates seem to be based on a 3.78% inflation assumption, I didn't change their default.

    The SolarFinder gives us a "Solar-Rating" of "good" at 4.5kWh / sq-m /day. However the Sunwize.com solar hours map gives us 2.0 - 2.9 "Solar Energy hours / day in worst month of year" I would say our winter weather tends to be either clear and cold, or warmer and cloudy. Since the oaks mostly shed their leaves, we actually might get better sun in the winter. I've also heard that the vac tube collectors actually don't do as well as conventional plate jobs - they collect snow and frost, and don't melt it off. There was a german study with a house that had both styles, and they found the vac tubes had higher peak performance, but the overall was better for the plates because the plates would melt of the coverage and get into service sooner.

    Given the way the chimney shadow seems to sweep across the roof, I suspect that PV might be difficult to set up, even assuming I got rid of the trees.

    We have done some of the easy consevation stuff, i.e. about 95% of our bulbs are CF's, but we need to do a lot more, especially weather sealing the house. However I don't see a lot of things to impact our bills in a big way without serious lifestyle changes, or purchasing lots of new appliances, which I'm not convinced is reasonable to do if the old appliance still works.

    I'm also thinking more an more in terms of doing water rather than PV, or possibly trying to do the PV on a small scale, just enough to cover the added costs of the water system more or less...
  • xiphias
    xiphias Solar Expert Posts: 52 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: What should I do on my roof?

    Some initial thoughts from a bit southeast of you.

    I would defer to the more knowledgeable folks here on PV performance and sizing. I did do a recent "optimization" experiment, however, that looked at array size, production/offset, cost and payback. There was a sweet spot that minimized payback, but it still ended up at ~10 years. Something like 3 kW, IIRC.

    I'm a lot more knowledgeable about solar thermal stuff.

    Depending on how you heat with wood (e.g., wood stove space heating or wood-fired boiler for a hydronic loop of radiators or baseboard), solar space heating may make a lot of sense. If you have a hydronic system, then space heating may be a great option. The flat-plate collector technology is quite mature (evac tubes are not -- we have a 300 tube array at work that is working through some $non-trivial issues), the storage tank and controls are better and simpler, too.

    The downside to solar space heating is having a lot of overcapacity in the summer. This is particularly true with evac tube collectors. Unless you have a heat dump, like a pool. So as you mention, you're covered on that score.

    If you don't already have a hydronic system, then installing an efficient space heating system starts to run into some bucks. The ideal is radiant floor heating because it uses the lowest supply temperatures. It's typically the most expensive to install. Other options that could work well are cast iron radiators, cast iron baseboard, and even properly oversized copper fin-tube, although the latter especially would probably not meet 100% of the load in the mid-winter.

    Given the fairly low installed cost, solar DHW is presently the "no-brainer." A more realistic installed cost is probably around $7500-8000 in our neck of the woods. If you apply the max federal and MA credits, that reduces the cost by $3k. Since you have natural gas, Keyspan/NationalGrid is offering 15% (capped at $1500) rebates on solar installations.

    I know people who have home-brewed panels. They work ok, but a quality manufactured panel is, IMHO, worth the investment. If you are self-installing, you're already saving significant money, and I think it's worth it to put some of the savings into good panels and other materials. If you're looking for a pro to estimate, help, etc., maybe check out this guy http://www.bobgagnon.com/ who is somewhere in NE MA. I forget exactly where. Does a lot of solar stuff, waste heat recovery, etc. etc.

    All that said, there is no easier and cheaper way to cut energy use than by insulating and air sealing. If you go with a solar thermal heating system, then you definitely want to get the building heat loss down so that you can meet the load with the coolest water possible. Get the envelope tightened up, then go after the active solar stuff. Basically the same rationale for using CFLs -- cut the use first.

    Doubtless you've already seen the various fed and MA incentives at www.dsireusa.org, and done the MTC PV rebate math (note the income and home value "adders" -- also the discount for using MA-manufactured products. Evergreen solar is an MA company and they make good panels). http://www.masstech.org/SOLAR/

    For PV production, costs, etc. you might also check out the NREL Solar Advisor Model and PVWATT.

    https://www.nrel.gov/analysis/sam/

    http://www.pvwatt.com/

    Hope this helps.
  • xiphias
    xiphias Solar Expert Posts: 52 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: What should I do on my roof?

    Another link:

    Solar storage tanks http://www.stsscoinc.com/Products.aspx

    Commonly used by the installers in my area, and the guy with the aforementioned home-brewed panels.
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Re: What should I do on my roof?
    Gooserider wrote: »
    (I don't know how to play the fiddle...*:D*)

    Do the Macarena, the #1 Greatest One-Hit Wonder of all Time ?
    _ but step away from the edge !

    * Beat 01: R arm straight out - in front of you - PALM DOWN
    * Beat 02: L arm straight out - in front of you - PALM DOWN
    * Beat 03: R arm straight out - in front of you - PALM UP
    * Beat 04: L arm straight out - in front of you - PALM UP
    * Beat 05: R hand grasps inside of the L arm - at the ELBOW
    * Beat 06: L hand grasps inside of the R arm - at the ELBOW
    * Beat 07: R hand behind R - back of NECK
    * Beat 08: L hand behind L - back of NECK
    * Beat 09: R hand on L - front PANTS POCKET
    * Beat 10: L hand on R - front PANTS POCKET
    * Beat 11: R hand on R - back PANTS POCKET
    * Beat 12: L hand on L - back PANTS POCKET
    * Beat 13: Move your rump to the LEFT
    * Beat 14: Move your rump to the RIGHT
    * Beat 15: Move your rump to the LEFT
    * Beat 16: CLAP and turn 90 degrees to the RIGHT
    * REPEAT all 16 beats

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macarena_%28song%29
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Re: What should I do on my roof?
    xiphias wrote: »
    Another link:

    Solar storage tanks http://www.stsscoinc.com/Products.aspx

    Commonly used by the installers in my area, and the guy with the aforementioned home-brewed panels.

    1) what's the hot limit of the plastic used for them ?

    2) here's a link (I thought I posted it earlier) to a way to heat up all that water, the design may be applicable to your roof, if roof is strong enough, and collector array is light enough.
    http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/SpaceHeating/SolarShed/solarshed.htm
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • xiphias
    xiphias Solar Expert Posts: 52 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: What should I do on my roof?
    mike90045 wrote: »
    1) what's the hot limit of the plastic used for them ?

    Good question. Short answer is I dunno for sure. IIRC, the membrane is EPDM, in which case probably >>180F. One article I saw said something like 160-175C (320-350F) for certain EPDM formulations before they start to fail.

    Functionally, I don't think these tanks, sized correctly for the panel area and the heating/DHW load(s), see more than 160F. Wouldn't know about wood boiler applications. Might go a bit higher there.