Tripped my Outback 3648 Mate again. No household power.

softdown
softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,896 ✭✭✭✭
edited March 2023 in Off Grid Solar & Battery Systems #1
Was checking an old radial arm saw for functionality. It was experiencing a slow start. Figured that was due to sitting for years and being a bit cold.

It somehow tripped the Outback 3648 inverter in spite of three circuit breakers in between the radial arm saw and the Outback 3648. The 3648 shows the dreaded RED error light in the upper left. 

Tried resetting the FM80 then the MATE. Can't seem to find directions for resetting the 3648 inverter. 

I have tried resetting all appropriate circuit breakers several times. Now at a loss! NAWS is also closed today. The inverter is less than two years old.

Had a similar experience when changing a light fixture - last time. Wound up replacing a good inverter I think. Pretty frustrating!



First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,896 ✭✭✭✭
    #2
    Disconnected and reconnected the batteries. Bingo. Was that too much to put ANYWHERE? Outback? Or any of the majors? One very obscure inverter name mentioned that possibility. I figured Outback would have a more advanced option for a simple overload. An "overload" that bypassed all other breakers? Could be that a few freezers were on at the same time. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #3
    AC inverter's have electronic over current/over power/etc. protection system that are many times faster (and more sensitive) than the average circuit breaker.

    And killing the DC input power (and any AC alternative input power) for seconds (to a few minutes) is the "go to" first step to "reset" any internal faults/shutdowns.

    The internal electronics have failure modes that happen in micro seconds (such as over voltage to a transistor) to seconds (such as I^2*R) over heating of transistor/diode junctions and such.

    Breakers are there to protect the wiring from over current... And they don't always do that either. Have seen older breakers (from companies no longer in business) which don't even work reliably as circuit breakers.

    https://www.angi.com/articles/are-federal-pacific-circuit-breaker-panels-safe.htm

    Why Federal Pacific Circuit Breakers Can Be Dangerous

    If you own a home built between 1950 and 1990, chances are you might have a Federal Pacific circuit breaker. Produced by the Federal Pacific Electric company, these breakers are now considered a safety hazard. You should replace them with a circuit breaker that meets modern safety standards.

    Studies have shown that up to one in four Stab-Lok breakers are defective and run the risk of malfunction or electrical fire. A New Jersey court ruled that Federal Pacific Electric fraudulently labeled these faulty breakers as meeting certain safety standards. However, the Consumer Product Safety Commission did not issue a product recall due to budget issues.

    While Federal Pacific Electric has been out of business for many years, Federal Pacific panels and breakers are still in millions of homes around the country. Federal Pacific panel breaker malfunctions are the cause of an estimated 2,800 fires each year. As a result, electrical companies recommend that homeowners replace any Federal Pacific panels with new, up-to-date circuit breakers.

    I have seen a "failed to protection" FP breaker take out a pole transformer (another interior breaker panel failed from salt air corrosion and high humidity and had a panel "arc fault"--And the main FP breaker did not trip).

    Regarding the issues with the saw... If it has a motor start capacitor, that capacitor may have failed (typically not enough capacitance) to property start the induction motor (or other issues like a failed centrifugal motor start switch inside the motor).

    The motor thermal overload may not trip, or may take minutes to trip. And the trip curve of your circuit breakers are simply not "fast enough" to trip before the inverter's internal protection circuits trip.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,896 ✭✭✭✭
    #4
    Fine. But considering how easy it is to shut down the inverter they should issue a highly visible written statement on RESET procedures. 

    I have troubles with large old radial arm saws in the west wing. Long travel from the main circuit breaker box - that surely contributes. Once I upped my system output voltage and a few people seemed to disapprove. Seems appropriate considering the long travel distances in an 8000 ft shop. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • Surfpath
    Surfpath Solar Expert Posts: 468 ✭✭✭
    edited June 13 #5
    Softdown, agreed.
     I had a minor “a/c output shorted” error message today when a small electrical device plugged into one of my outlets shorted. My Outback inverter manuals (installation & user) had nothing regarding troubleshooting this. There was only just a listing of the different kinds of errors.

    My inverter lights looked just like yours in your photo above. The ac short error was the only error message on the Mate. 
    After removing the defective small electrical device and turning off my main house AC panel, I used the Mate to turn inverter control to off, then back to on. 
    This effectively reset the inverter, turned off the Error light and resumed AC production. Everything powered up fine, and I made sure that the offending device got sent to the trash.  BTW, I did not have to do a power shutdown (eg remove the battery cables, etc.).

    I hope that this post helps any Outbackers who Experience a minor short. 
    Outback Flexpower 1 (FM80, VFX3048E-230v, Mate, FlexNetDC) 2,730watts of "Grid-type" PV, 370 AmpHrs Trojan RE-B's, Honda 2000 watt genny, 100% off grid.
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,891 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 13 #6
    It also can be caused by a battery bank that is too small, has higher internal resistance, battery cable/connection quality and SOC. A 3KW inverter is often not big enough for these types of loads (shorts) also and many go to the 8KW Outback Radian. An XW will start a short circuit easily or blow the 20 amp breaker.

    It is a marriage of the battery and the inverter when it comes to loading.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • mahendra
    mahendra Solar Expert Posts: 188 ✭✭✭
    #7
    Outbacks do this and for good reasons.
    Usually, you will have to acknowledge the faults to know if it's an AC or DC fault by going through the menu and using the on/off/search button options to reset.
    I have done this several times. If it keeps repeating then it is something that needs chacking.
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  • mahendra
    mahendra Solar Expert Posts: 188 ✭✭✭
    #8
    noticing there are like three lugs on the inverter lug post,
    Those can be cause for concern, loose connection besides some others 
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