DC Motor as Generator

JRHill
JRHill Registered Users Posts: 371 ✭✭✭✭
in Advanced Solar Electric Technical Forum #1
I used to have access to a variety of 90 and some 180vdc electric motors. These were used on treadmills. Many of them were rather cheap and they fried regularly which was a reason my little company did quite well in the fitness craze of the '80s and early '90s - in some ways it is still going but that is not the subject here. The commercial DC powered machines in fitness centers had some pretty good Baldor, Precision Scientific, etc sealed, permanent magnet drive motors of excellent quality. Many times the motors would be serviceable and really only needed the commutator turned, separators undercut and fresh brushes. Ever since I went off grid in retirement I wish I had one of those quality 90vdc motors (1750 RPM max, 1.5 hp, 15a) to play with as a power source. And I have thought to go looking for one to play with but what about the controller?.

Has anyone ever tried making power from something like the above using a decent controller with, for example, wind? Using a one way bearing along the drive with a controller that could load dump isn't hard. But it seems some controllers specifically state they are not to be used for wind generation which I have always suspected is due to the constant variation including very low to very high generation in bursts. Where we live is in a canyon and with trees doesn't lend generation to a horizontal windmill but a helical vertical would be ideal for an experiment. The wind here is rarely in a general direction but instead swirles its way along the sides of the canyon. The vertical style would also be better for overspeed me thinks....

So I thought to ask the wider group their thoughts on the durability of a suitable controller for this type of duty. Another tooth gritting thing is that over the top of our canyon it opens up to a treeless high prairie which would be perfect for any type of windmill as if there is ANY wind around its up there. It's just that the site is 1/3 mile away over a wicked grade which makes getting the power home a no-starter.

Thoughts?
Off Grid. Two systems: 1) 2925w panels, OB VFXR3648, FM80, FNDC, Victron BMV-712, Mate3s, 240 xformer, four SimpliPHI 3.8; 2) 780w, Morningstar 30a, Grundfos switch, controller and AC/DC pump, 8 T105. Honda EU7000is w/AGS. Champion 3100. HF 4550, Miller Bobcat.
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,908 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #2
    Some folks have tried this on the forum here with poor results. 
    This is often because they really do not have enough wind to do the work. I would look at Windy.com and zoom in to your area. The paid version can give you recent logged data and it is worth it for commercial or large wind farms that are getting financing.

    The equipment needs to protect itself from overspeed in high wind or you will use up your supply of motors fast.

    My experience was that I would rather do a water generator over a wind generator.  Much safer !!!   Hard to beat solar, maybe you need alot more?

    Not much wind in Washington today. 5 to 10 knots max.



    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • JRHill
    JRHill Registered Users Posts: 371 ✭✭✭✭
    #3
    Dave, you're probably 98% correct. But today is one of those days that it's too windy to throw rocks.
    Off Grid. Two systems: 1) 2925w panels, OB VFXR3648, FM80, FNDC, Victron BMV-712, Mate3s, 240 xformer, four SimpliPHI 3.8; 2) 780w, Morningstar 30a, Grundfos switch, controller and AC/DC pump, 8 T105. Honda EU7000is w/AGS. Champion 3100. HF 4550, Miller Bobcat.
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  • SumPower
    SumPower Registered Users Posts: 70 ✭✭
    #4
    My experience with small wind turbines is, (well) buy some extra solar panels and you will ultimately be happier!!! Just my opinion.
    Found a great site about small wind turbines that spells it our pretty good.

    It is a long read, but a good one.

    Yesterday we had 45mph constant winds (9 hours) with a 68mph gust on my weather station. Living east of the venturi effect of the columbia river gorge, I have done electrical installs for small turbines and megawatt turbines. Of the 8 small turbines I installed wiring on, only one is still in operation. The wind beats them to death, LOL!
    I just thank God solar panels don't fly!


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  • Ralph Day
    Ralph Day Solar Expert Posts: 1,022 ✭✭✭✭
    #5
    Solacity is in my neck of the woods, eastern Ontario near Ottawa the capital city of  Canada.  I[ve purchased Surrette batteries, Midnitesolar Clipper and Midnitesolar Classic charge controllers from them.  Very knowledgeable and experienced in the renewable energy fields.  Rob Beckers is the main man!

    Ralph
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  • JRHill
    JRHill Registered Users Posts: 371 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2023 #6
    I'm in the rain shadow of south central WA in a treed canyon facing north. We have all the sun we can use from May to the end of Oct. But when we don't have sun, esp for a month before and after the winter solstice, I could triple my panels and still not get enough charge a the day. We might get some cloud edge generation. It's just plain generator season. When the panels get covered with show its not worth the effort to clear them for those two worst months :-( So that helical mill keeps coming up every year.
    Off Grid. Two systems: 1) 2925w panels, OB VFXR3648, FM80, FNDC, Victron BMV-712, Mate3s, 240 xformer, four SimpliPHI 3.8; 2) 780w, Morningstar 30a, Grundfos switch, controller and AC/DC pump, 8 T105. Honda EU7000is w/AGS. Champion 3100. HF 4550, Miller Bobcat.
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,908 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #7
    If you had enough panels, it might be worth clearing them for more days of charge.  As you know, your location will always require something more to add charge. Another way is to use less energy.  I have some folks who do just that up in Alaska.  I could never do what they do.

    Solar panels on sale now at the store here.   Some very nice ones!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • JRHill
    JRHill Registered Users Posts: 371 ✭✭✭✭
    #8
    I saw the sale ad. I've purchased most everything to date from NAW&S/NAZ. Support has been 2nd to no other,

    BTW, when I say no sun its literal as we are in the shadow of the trees at the top of the canyon all of Dec and half of Nov and Jan.. And more so every year as the darn things keep growing. Who'd of thunk it? Yes, indeed, I screwed up on site selection relative to solar. But I hit pay dirt for the water well in terms of location, depth and quality.
    Off Grid. Two systems: 1) 2925w panels, OB VFXR3648, FM80, FNDC, Victron BMV-712, Mate3s, 240 xformer, four SimpliPHI 3.8; 2) 780w, Morningstar 30a, Grundfos switch, controller and AC/DC pump, 8 T105. Honda EU7000is w/AGS. Champion 3100. HF 4550, Miller Bobcat.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,631 admin
    #9
    The old what is good for wind, is also (usually) good for solar--I.e., open area, mounting turbine 30+ feet up in "clean air" (vs solar panels in open sun area 12 months of year)... Conversely, tall trees blocking wind (turbulent air) and sun.

    Is there anyway that you can install an array some distance away (high voltage array, even a "power shed" and sending AC power to your home)? On your property, sharing a "solar site" with others/owner of remote land with sun? With high voltage arrays/charge controllers/converting to AC at array/etc.--Long distance solar power runs can be an option.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • JRHill
    JRHill Registered Users Posts: 371 ✭✭✭✭
    #10
    No full time neighbor but there is one guy with a couple of RVs who hunts and another with a cabin on stilts, each visit a few times each year. No utilities or services including mail or delivery (maybe one day by drone). Trees immediately around the house are 25' white oak which wouldn't readily burn - a few are 40' and 100+ years old. Those would never get cut back. Otherwise its Doug Fir and Pine. It's quiet  :) . If I had built 100' toward the downhill side we'd still be on the plateau and the sun exposure would be much more out of the shadow. Oops.

    Off Grid. Two systems: 1) 2925w panels, OB VFXR3648, FM80, FNDC, Victron BMV-712, Mate3s, 240 xformer, four SimpliPHI 3.8; 2) 780w, Morningstar 30a, Grundfos switch, controller and AC/DC pump, 8 T105. Honda EU7000is w/AGS. Champion 3100. HF 4550, Miller Bobcat.
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,908 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #11
    "Usually good' except with constant veering wind noise and sleep. 😉   Been to that movie.

    As Bill wrote, and I will add you can go 1000's of feet with 600vdc solar. You have to accept the loss as the one time cost.

    I have been waiting for Schneider to come out with the 1,000vdc mppt since I tested the 600vdc in 2010.  Game changer for distant runs.

    You sure you can't run micro hydro? Washington has the lowest KWH cost because of hydro.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • JRHill
    JRHill Registered Users Posts: 371 ✭✭✭✭
    #12
    Dave Angelini said:
    "You sure you can't run micro hydro? Washington has the lowest KWH cost because of hydro.
    No access to running water. And when it does flow, both streams are on land I don't own and are protected runs for the tribal fisheries. 1/2 mile over VERY rough boulder filled terrain.
    Off Grid. Two systems: 1) 2925w panels, OB VFXR3648, FM80, FNDC, Victron BMV-712, Mate3s, 240 xformer, four SimpliPHI 3.8; 2) 780w, Morningstar 30a, Grundfos switch, controller and AC/DC pump, 8 T105. Honda EU7000is w/AGS. Champion 3100. HF 4550, Miller Bobcat.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,631 admin
    #13
    Just playing with Screen Capture of JR's topo/terrain posted photo:

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • SumPower
    SumPower Registered Users Posts: 70 ✭✭
    #14
    JRHill said:
    No full time neighbor but there is one guy with a couple of RVs who hunts and another with a cabin on stilts, each visit a few times each year. No utilities or services including mail or delivery (maybe one day by drone). Trees immediately around the house are 25' white oak which wouldn't readily burn - a few are 40' and 100+ years old. Those would never get cut back. Otherwise its Doug Fir and Pine. It's quiet  :) . If I had built 100' toward the downhill side we'd still be on the plateau and the sun exposure would be much more out of the shadow. Oops.


    I noticed from the contour that I used to herd sheep there in the 60's, mainly above your location up on the plateau.  I know you are kind of between a rock and a hard spot when it comes to winter solar. What a great location though!
    I tried the Hugh Spigot turbine here and it was good to a point, I found that the turbulance during wind gust cause a lot of vibration and I had structural issues with my tower and turbine blades. Even though the tower was overbuilt. Talked with an engineer and the only solution was to get the tower high enough to get into clean flowing wind. Couldn't afford a 100+ foot tower.


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  • JRHill
    JRHill Registered Users Posts: 371 ✭✭✭✭
    #15
    SumPower said:
    JRHill said:
    No full time neighbor ...
    I noticed from the contour that I used to herd sheep there in the 60's....
    Schilling's? This was definitely sheep country in the day. Glad you spotted it. The mill and RR were still running then, sigh. If you ever get this way, drop a message beforehand.
    Off Grid. Two systems: 1) 2925w panels, OB VFXR3648, FM80, FNDC, Victron BMV-712, Mate3s, 240 xformer, four SimpliPHI 3.8; 2) 780w, Morningstar 30a, Grundfos switch, controller and AC/DC pump, 8 T105. Honda EU7000is w/AGS. Champion 3100. HF 4550, Miller Bobcat.
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  • SumPower
    SumPower Registered Users Posts: 70 ✭✭
    #16
    JRHill said:
    SumPower said:
    JRHill said:
    No full time neighbor ...
    I noticed from the contour that I used to herd sheep there in the 60's....
    Schilling's? This was definitely sheep country in the day. Glad you spotted it. The mill and RR were still running then, sigh. If you ever get this way, drop a message beforehand.

    Yep, They were my Grandparents best friends. They did a fair amount of trading work and working together. Used to hunt there until the RR washed out and they didn't replace it. The section man would bring his scooter down to haul out the game. Good times, they would never let the section man do that now days.
    Wish you well with experimenting in wind power.


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  • JRHill
    JRHill Registered Users Posts: 371 ✭✭✭✭
    #17
    What a small world. What are the chances of posting a satellite photo of a remote area with any identifiable landmarks avoided except for topo and some one says "Oh, yeah, I know that place." What a hoot!
    Off Grid. Two systems: 1) 2925w panels, OB VFXR3648, FM80, FNDC, Victron BMV-712, Mate3s, 240 xformer, four SimpliPHI 3.8; 2) 780w, Morningstar 30a, Grundfos switch, controller and AC/DC pump, 8 T105. Honda EU7000is w/AGS. Champion 3100. HF 4550, Miller Bobcat.
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  • SumPower
    SumPower Registered Users Posts: 70 ✭✭
    #18
    JRHill said:
    What a small world. What are the chances of posting a satellite photo of a remote area with any identifiable landmarks avoided except for topo and some one says "Oh, yeah, I know that place." What a hoot!

    Well, I also worked a couple of summers for a surveyor and we surveyed a some of that area. The give away for me was the creek/greenspace.
    I also walked the area multiple times with our sheep dogs rounding up strays for the night.

    Sum Power

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