Recommended battery for portable 5500 lb winches?

softdown
softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,925 ✭✭✭✭
in Off Grid Solar & Battery Systems #1
I take down dangerous leaning trees close to houses. A few years ago I used 13,000 lb winches with 110 lb batteries. Thats a no go when there is snow on mountainous ground. Or a lot of tangled branches to walk through.

Last week I used a 5500 lb winch with a 75 lb battery. That worked OK for two trees. But I can take NO chances on crushing a house. So I ordered a couple more similar winches. But carrying three winches and three 75 lb batteries around at 10,000' altitude with snow and tangled branches could get onerous.

So I'm looking for the most efficient battery alternatives available. In weight with cost being a significant factor. Unsure if CCA or Deep Cycle would be best. CCA would pull the hardest but Deep Cycle would pull longer with effectiveness. 

Is there a good 12V cadmium or NMH (nickel metal hydride) alternative that is affordable? I use "forklift battery" type connections to connect the winch to the battery. 


Word for the wise - if you seek to do this you will want a winch mounting plate that allows for an anchor on both the right and left sides of the mounting plate. D-ring type anchors work OK. 

I did OK with one winch, one battery etc. but things could have potentially gone sideways. I like back up. Preferably back up for the back up when a house is at stake. 

Younger guys climb the trees and remove a piece at a time. Richer guys use a crane. I like winches. So far all trees have fallen where the winch line was persuading it to. 

Another word for the wise. Removing trees around homes and power lines is inherently dangerous. I suspect it may be more dangerous than logging. Loggers don't usually have to worry about houses or power lines or falling from trees or the tree falling on the bucket of the truck etc. I have a few stories...

Recommended battery for portable 5500 lb winches? 
First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,925 ✭✭✭✭
    #2
    Found a couple articles claiming that ~ 700 CCA is needed for a 12,000lb winch to operate properly. Looks like a smaller battery would work ok. Especially with three winches. 3 = 2, 2 = 1. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • Marc Kurth
    Marc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 1,174 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2022 #3
    What is the current draw of the winch?  What is the typical runtime - in total?
    I brought down around 90 large pine trees after a fire swept through my four acres (plus 32,000 additional acres) I did use a winch as needed, and in my experience winches with an adequate cable speed draw a very high current. Yes, it can get really exciting when your winch grinds to a halt at the wrong time. Going portable, I could not get the job done with less than a group 31 battery and that was marginal. I used two batteries, so one could be charging while using the other.
    Much of the information on battery requirements are based on the battery being installed in a vehicle with the engine running.
    Marc
    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
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  • Marc Kurth
    Marc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 1,174 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2022 #4
    Based on the Concorde Lifeline & Sun Xtender AGM batteries that I deal with, here are some data points of load vs voltage vs DOD.  Other batteries may be different, but I do not have the data for other batteries
    Based on a 100 ah Group 27 deep cycle, 67 lbs. rated 575 CCA at 0F, 715 CA at 32F.
    You will maintain 12v or higher with a 40 amp load, down to only a 40% DOD. so around 55-60 minutes of runtime.
    An 80 amp load on the same battery would give you around 45 minutes of runtime down to 11v 80% DOD. (Rated to do this 500 times)
    Their 100 ah Lithium in a Group 24 size, weighs 26 lbs. and will support a 100 amp continuous load.



    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,925 ✭✭✭✭
    #5
    1.8 HP is all I have for current draw. Agreed that heavy winching kills batteries fast. The 75 lb battery did not pull as hard the second time as it did the first time. Though I had a couple dry runs before getting location bugs worked out. Keep in mind that I winch until the winch quits pulling in the line. A sure fire destroyer of battery power. 

    Lithium would be awesome of course but still, I think, at least ~ 3 times more expensive than a good LA battery. Plus an ~ 60 pound battery is light enough. 110 pounds is - uncomfortable. 

    Have decided that I generally prefer synthetic rope now. Doesn't pick up permanent deformities as easily. No risk of cut strands slicing fingers. Lighter and more flexible. Plus I'd rather get hit with a rope than a cable. 

    Marine/Deep Cycle batteries often cost less. I believe that is because of the 1 year warranty vs. the 5 year warranty on auto batteries. Marine/Deep Cycle batteries also handle being stored at lower voltages better I think. I also think they tend to have 1/4" threaded posts instead of the typical thick and blunt automotive terminal. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,925 ✭✭✭✭
    #6
    While perusing the smaller winches I found this item which is said to be identical to the 5000 lb Badlands winch. With the $15 coupon it is only ~$110. Steel cable but sometimes that is preferable. Being a tool junkie, I ordered it. But I make my living with tools.https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08XBNS43V?psc=1&smid=A2R1N1AL99QUB9&ref_=chk_typ_imgToDp
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,649 admin
    #7
    While I would not like to stand next to a metal cable snap... It (probably) does not "cut a person in half"--Per Mythbusters:

    https://mythresults.com/episode62

    If a cable snaps, it can cut a person in two.

    BUSTED

    A 5/8″ cable at 30,000 lbs of tension was unable to cut a pig in two (or even cut into it), but did cause potentially lethal injuries. The MythBusters took the test even further by adding a smaller cable at the end of larger one to create a “whip” effect, and even pre-looped a cable around the pig itself. None of these methods could cut the pig by the pre-tensed cable’s inertia alone. The pig was cut in half only when Adam tied a cable around it and then tightened the cable. Also, after making inquiries with almost every safety organization imaginable, the MythBusters were unable to find any concrete evidence of a person being cut in half by a snapped cable.

    Link to full show video (may or may not work for you):

    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3kckzl

    Example of Steel vs Synthetic cables:

    https://winchmania.com/synthetic-rope-vs-steel-cable/

    Current draw for one brand of winch (9.5XP WINCH - 68500)

    https://www.warn.com/95xp-winch-68500

    -Bill "your results may vary" B.
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • littleharbor2
    littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 2,115 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #8
    BB. said:

    . Also, after making inquiries with almost every safety organization imaginable, the MythBusters were unable to find any concrete evidence of a person being cut in half by a snapped cable.

    I lost a friend when a tow cable on a barge snapped in half and, while I don't have the exact details, it killed her instantly. RIP Piper. <3

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

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  • Marc Kurth
    Marc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 1,174 ✭✭✭✭
    #9
    softdown said:
    While perusing the smaller winches I found this item which is said to be identical to the 5000 lb Badlands winch. With the $15 coupon it is only ~$110. Steel cable but sometimes that is preferable. Being a tool junkie, I ordered it. But I make my living with tools.https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08XBNS43V?psc=1&smid=A2R1N1AL99QUB9&ref_=chk_typ_imgToDp

    ATV winches in that size range will draw around 20-30 amps with a light line load. That current draw will quickly and dramatically increase with a couple of thousand pounds of load on the line. You already know how slow the cable speed will get as you really load it up. Be careful out there and watch your angles!
    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,925 ✭✭✭✭
    #10
    That cable was likely well over 1" in diameter. I usually work alone so a severe injury is potentially life threatening. Assistants can be nice but frequently hardly worth it. The consequent loss in concentration for one thing. One really has to keep an eye on them. 

    I am looking for an asst between 45 and 70 healthy years of age. Not much luck with younger blokes. 

    littleharbor2 said:
    BB. said:

    . Also, after making inquiries with almost every safety organization imaginable, the MythBusters were unable to find any concrete evidence of a person being cut in half by a snapped cable.

    I lost a friend when a tow cable on a barge snapped in half and, while I don't have the exact details, it killed her instantly. RIP Piper. <3

    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,925 ✭✭✭✭
    #11
    I'm figuring that using 2-3 winches should favor the angles. The tricky part has been keeping the chains connected from ~35' high to the winch. Think I'll try largish cable ties next time. 

    An ~200 amp load will kill a normal battery pretty fast without an alternator recharging it of course. 

    Marc Kurth said:
    softdown said:
    While perusing the smaller winches I found this item which is said to be identical to the 5000 lb Badlands winch. With the $15 coupon it is only ~$110. Steel cable but sometimes that is preferable. Being a tool junkie, I ordered it. But I make my living with tools.https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08XBNS43V?psc=1&smid=A2R1N1AL99QUB9&ref_=chk_typ_imgToDp

    ATV winches in that size range will draw around 20-30 amps with a light line load. That current draw will quickly and dramatically increase with a couple of thousand pounds of load on the line. You already know how slow the cable speed will get as you really load it up. Be careful out there and watch your angles!

    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • littleharbor2
    littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 2,115 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #12
    softdown said:
    That cable was likely well over 1" in diameter. I usually work alone so a severe injury is potentially life threatening. Assistants can be nice but frequently hardly worth it. The consequent loss in concentration for one thing. One really has to keep an eye on them. 

    I am looking for an asst between 45 and 70 healthy years of age. Not much luck with younger blokes. 

    littleharbor2 said:
    BB. said:

    . Also, after making inquiries with almost every safety organization imaginable, the MythBusters were unable to find any concrete evidence of a person being cut in half by a snapped cable.

    I lost a friend when a tow cable on a barge snapped in half and, while I don't have the exact details, it killed her instantly. RIP Piper. <3

    More like 4" in diameter

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,925 ✭✭✭✭
    #13
    littleharbor2 said:
    softdown said:
    That cable was likely well over 1" in diameter. I usually work alone so a severe injury is potentially life threatening. Assistants can be nice but frequently hardly worth it. The consequent loss in concentration for one thing. One really has to keep an eye on them. 

    I am looking for an asst between 45 and 70 healthy years of age. Not much luck with younger blokes. 

    littleharbor2 said:
    BB. said:

    . Also, after making inquiries with almost every safety organization imaginable, the MythBusters were unable to find any concrete evidence of a person being cut in half by a snapped cable.

    I lost a friend when a tow cable on a barge snapped in half and, while I don't have the exact details, it killed her instantly. RIP Piper. <3

    More like 4" in diameter
    Wonder what the tow rating was. And what stress broke it. Suspect waves amplifying big ship weight. Sort of a hydraulic hammer. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • littleharbor2
    littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 2,115 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #14
    softdown said:
    littleharbor2 said:

    Wonder what the tow rating was. And what stress broke it. Suspect waves amplifying big ship weight. Sort of a hydraulic hammer.

    Big sea tug pulling loaded barge.

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,925 ✭✭✭✭
    #15
    littleharbor2 said:
    softdown said:
    littleharbor2 said:

    Wonder what the tow rating was. And what stress broke it. Suspect waves amplifying big ship weight. Sort of a hydraulic hammer.

    Big sea tug pulling loaded barge.
    How do they move 4" cable? I have 2" cable that is ridiculously heavy. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • littleharbor2
    littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 2,115 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #16
    softdown said:
    littleharbor2 said:
    softdown said:
    littleharbor2 said:

    Wonder what the tow rating was. And what stress broke it. Suspect waves amplifying big ship weight. Sort of a hydraulic hammer.

    Big sea tug pulling loaded barge.
    How do they move 4" cable? I have 2" cable that is ridiculously heavy. 
    Probably using Hydraulics or pto from their massive diesel engines.

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

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  • Marc Kurth
    Marc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 1,174 ✭✭✭✭
    #17
    Hey Softdown - check this out. Yes, it is very expensive but think about your liability if a tree gets away from you. And you can drag logs/limbs very long distances. It is a capstan design with a line speed of 40' per minute. Add a block/pulley and get some real pulling power and still have good line speed. Think of how you can route ropes around other trees/objects when not limited by winch cable length. Powered by a little Honda four-stroke it is going to be fuel efficient and easy to start.

    Just a thought.....

    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
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  • 706jim
    706jim Solar Expert Posts: 523 ✭✭✭✭
    #18
    That Honda winch is impressive. But you'd pretty well need to have a business to justify the high price.
    Island cottage solar system with appriximately 2500 watts of panels, 1kw facing southeast 1.3kw facing southwest 170watt ancient Arco's facing due south. All panels in parallel for a 24 volt system. Trace DR1524 MSW inverter which has performed flawlessly since 1994. Outback Flexmax 80 MPPT charge controller four 467A-h AGM batteries. Insignia 11.5 cubic foot electric fridge 1/4hp GSW piston pump. My 31st year.
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  • Marc Kurth
    Marc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 1,174 ✭✭✭✭
    #19

    Yes Sir – it’s a lot of money! But these comments by the OP:

    “I take down dangerous leaning trees close to houses.”

    ‘But I can take NO chances on crushing a house.”

    “I suspect it may be more dangerous than logging.”

    Made me consider that the high price wasn’t as bad as the potential cost of a mishap.

    These little 25 lb. to 35 lb. rigs would serve a lot of needs. In particular, the capstan design provides the ability to control the release rate to control the fall with one hand if needed. Maybe there are less expensive models out there.


     






    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,925 ✭✭✭✭
    #20
    Marc Kurth said:
    Hey Softdown - check this out. Yes, it is very expensive but think about your liability if a tree gets away from you. And you can drag logs/limbs very long distances. It is a capstan design with a line speed of 40' per minute. Add a block/pulley and get some real pulling power and still have good line speed. Think of how you can route ropes around other trees/objects when not limited by winch cable length. Powered by a little Honda four-stroke it is going to be fuel efficient and easy to start.

    Just a thought.....

    A 2000 lb pull is far less than desired though it offers other benefits. This week I was able to complete three more  5,000 lb winches and install two very large D-rings on each. They all have remote controls as well. 

    I once used a 12,000 lb skid steer to tug as hard as possible on a serious leaner. That proved inadequate for a few reasons. Went back to winching and bucket trucks. So far the serious leaners are falling where the winches direct them too. Now I have a LOT of winches to persuade hard leaners. 

    I used to use 13,000 pound winches. But snow on the mountainous terrain makes carrying them around too dangerous. Slipping and falling is one thing. Doing that while carrying ~80 ungainly pounds is quite another. I feel safer using three 5,000 pound winches. 80 pounds is my guess based on required attachments to the winch. 

    Why use multiple winches? For one thing it is possible to lose the connection from the tree to the winch when operating high in the tree. Operating high in the tree with a bucket truck offers a LOT of leverage. Plus it basically turns an ~80' tree into much smaller trees that can not reach the house.

    I might be willing to risk hitting a shed. I'll do anything to miss a house. Falling trees tend to decimate what they land on. The thunder they produce when landing is a bit of a thrill. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,925 ✭✭✭✭
    #21
    Anyone know of "affordable" > 500CCA lithium batteries, I am all ears. Batteries are much easier to carry than winches so this is not entirely urgent unless the "price is right"? 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,925 ✭✭✭✭
    #22
    Thinking a 50aH lithium 12.8V battery would work nicely. Weighing about 20 pounds instead of the 55 pounds of the "comparable" lead acid battery. Doubt that I need the additional cycles but it should last about 3 times as long with a much lower self discharge. No core fee either. It is a bit tempting though carrying 55 pounds is quite easy. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • Wheelman55
    Wheelman55 Registered Users Posts: 248 ✭✭✭
    #23
    Several of my neighbors here in Terlingua are using batteries from Signature Solar. The pricing is very good compared to the Discover batts that I use. 

    They offer this 100ah 12v waterproof that might work for you. 

    Off-Grid in Terlingua, TX
    5,000 watt array - 14 CS 370 watt modules. HZLA horizontal tracker. Schneider: XW6048NA+, Mini PDP, MPPT 80-600, SCP. 390ah LiFeP04 battery bank - 3 Discover AES 42-48-6650 48 volt 130ah LiFePO4 batteries
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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,925 ✭✭✭✭
    #24
    Wheelman55 said:
    Several of my neighbors here in Terlingua are using batteries from Signature Solar. The pricing is very good compared to the Discover batts that I use. 

    They offer this 100ah 12v waterproof that might work for you. 

    $449, I have speculated that the word "solar" on a battery may drive up the cost. How is a "solar" lithium battery different from its counter parts? Lead acid is easy, solar lead acid is always deep cycle. Always. And I think the principal difference, perhaps the only difference, is fewer plates but much thicker plates. Which means fewer CCA (cold cranking amps). 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • Marc Kurth
    Marc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 1,174 ✭✭✭✭
    #25
    softdown said:

    . And I think the principal difference, perhaps the only difference, is fewer plates but much thicker plates. Which means fewer CCA (cold cranking amps). 
    With the AGM batteries that I deal with, this is right on the money. In addition, the starting batteries have a honeycomb-like structure to increase the surface area. Based on a given size battery, the deep cycle version generally has 60% to 70% of the CCA compared to a "dual purpose" or starting battery.

    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,925 ✭✭✭✭
    #26
    FWIW my explorations into lithium batteries is that they expressly say the battery is not meant for either starting engines or golf cart use. I think they might be a winching disaster. Might. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • UpNorthMan
    UpNorthMan Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭
    #27
    My guess is that with both types of usage, starting and golf cart, the surge may get you. From what I've seen, the bms are the limitations.
    If you don't mind tinkering with things. The link below may be of interest. Split the cell in half for two 12v batteries. Just a thought.
    Ed

    1000W panels Kid CC 184 ah battery bank @ 48v
    Weekend cabin, 250w inverter.
    Looking to upgrade inverter!
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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,925 ✭✭✭✭
    #28
    UpNorthMan said:
    My guess is that with both types of usage, starting and golf cart, the surge may get you. From what I've seen, the bms are the limitations.
    If you don't mind tinkering with things. The link below may be of interest. Split the cell in half for two 12v batteries. Just a thought.
    Ed

    ^^^Makes sense.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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