6848 With 804 AH Battery bank not charging and reference correctly.

shawnj72
shawnj72 Registered Users Posts: 64 ✭✭
Good day.. Seems something went arears and unsure where the problem is. Somewhere when updating firmware cleaning battery terminals. and when it charged and getting PV online the battery bank isnt acting like it should. Battery is floded led acid 48v at 804ah forklift battery. Some reason the battery dies very quickly then drops voltage to lets say 45 the bat monitor still says its at 100% and only 2% discharge. voltage drops out because of under the 41v threshold and when i restore it goes into charge but bank still says 100% it cycles the charge cycle very fast.. wondering how to start over getting this to fully charge so the bank and charger is correct.. or what can i check.. I do find it interesting that its at such a low voltage but still says 100% and only 2ah discharge.. no to reset this bat mon give it a full charge then re synchronize.. somehow when things got hooked up it synchronized at such a low charge and now things its charged when its not?

Comments

  • littleharbor2
    littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 2,039 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What is the voltage before it drops? Can you check voltage at the battery with a DMM to verify is matches your system numbers?

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

  • shawnj72
    shawnj72 Registered Users Posts: 64 ✭✭
    Voltages seem correct.. both the bat mon inverter and with a meter.. I think i know what went array but reading the manual don't think it can be corrected with the inv charger or not may need to put on external charger. I believe i inventively pressed the synchronize the last maintenance when the battery's weren't charged fully to capacity.. and now the AH or capacity  isn't correct . the other day the power was out seemed to work for a few hours before the voltage dropped and kicked out.. Now it goes into bulk and immediately ramps down to absorption within a min or so. absorption only last a few min before it goes to float. What i believe i need to do is fully charge reset the synchronization and then it should charge correctly after discharge.. i read you need to set the float to same voltage as absorption and may achieve the full charge that way.  buy may put a 13a trickle charge on for a bit and try that.. seams interesting how it ramps so quickly even though it is not in a good charge state.. unsure how it all co exists with pv battery and ac charger seams things went south when i got the pv functioning went to two stage charging like it recommended and it seams it pulls from the batteries randomly even though there is pv power available and pulls from batteries in evening with grid connected unsure how to fix this also. but know it isn't charging correctly and cant fix the other till it can run for more than a few min because of drop out voltage. unsure how to set the bulk absorption voltage as no field.  My batteries recommend 59.3 bulk absorption  but the charger is 57.6 and no way to change that setting as that setting is in the mptt150's .. and no field guess i need to start by getting a full charge somehow re-synchronize and run a complete cycle. for now i tried to charge by enabling and re enabling charger but that will take all day think ill just put the trickle charger on when the sun goes down.. seams the pv doesn't charge long before it says it is charged also.. unsure if i am on the right path but sounds like a good case senerao.. Regards shawn
  • littleharbor2
    littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 2,039 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Why can't you set the voltage settings higher? Try a factory reset? Are there 'User "defined set points?

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So I'm NOT familiar with this Inverter Charger(?)

    I would think a Bulk Termination setting of 1 second would have to due with lithium batteries? Unless that is the point it switches to Absorb. An absorb setting of 1 and a half hours is pretty short I think I started at 3 hr and moved to 4.5hrs as the battery aged, perhaps 8 years of age on. Can you switch the calibration to minutes?



    BTW - the 804ah looks like you are using a GB battery and their translation of a 24-85-13 from a 510 ah 6 hr rate to a 804 ah 20 hr rate. This is WRONG! I used a 24 volt version and after I purchased I realized(with help from this forum) they use 1.6x the 6hr rate to get to their 20 hr rate. A more relistic value is 1.3 or 1.35x the 6 hour rate.


    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • shawnj72
    shawnj72 Registered Users Posts: 64 ✭✭
    edited October 2022 #6
    here is the exact battery i have. Unsure how to get it to charge correctly been trying all day.. seems it discharges rather fast.. and seems it charges about just as quickly. only stays in bulk for a min but find it interesting even though it gets to 41v it says full 100% charge.. so yeah something isn't going as it should.. battery discharges like its shot but it was just fine just seams it wont charge correctly so how can it act correctly either.

  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Okay, this is just silly salesman BS Pretty much criminal as it's pretty much impossible.

    Looks like the salesman, NOT understanding how things work, multiplied 510 x 20hr/6hr =....

    Even the 804 you are using is incorrect and I would suggest using 660ah. NOT that this applies to your situation.

    My guess is this is a relabeled GB battery.

    So this setting looks like the 'Bulk/Absorb' voltage;



    But you say;

    shawnj72 said:
     My batteries recommend 59.3 bulk absorption  but the charger is 57.6 and no way to change that setting as that setting is in the mptt150's ..
    This I don't see this even set for 57.6, can you direct me to that setting?

    I would think that the recharge voltage would be the Bulk/absorb cut off and should be 58-60 volts.

    ================================================================================

    So more info time, How old is this battery? FWIW - abused mine lasted 10 good years and 12 in service. I would expect 12-15 good years without the abuse.

    I think my settings are (transferring from 24 volt to 48 volt) Bulk cut off/switch to absorb 58 volts for the first 8 years, then I increased it to 59 and later 60 last 4 years of it's life. I set the absorb time to 3 hours to start increasing it the last 4 years gradually to 4.5 hours. I set the Float voltage at 54 volts for the first 8 years and increased it to 54.8 the last 4 years.

    My battery is half of yours in daily use for 12 years, NO backup generator.

    =================================================================================

    So here is the basics of charging a flooded lead acid battery.

    The voltage you are seeing is the system voltage and not the battery voltage. If you are connected to charging or a load it will effect the system voltage.

    During charging, there are basically 3 stages of charging, Bulk, Absorb, and Float.

    BULK;
    First thing when charging starts you will be in bulk, the voltage rises from what ever the system voltage was to a set point, around 14.5 volts. At that point the Charge controller stops the voltage from rising. Higher voltage can damage sealed batteries.

    ABSORB;
    Once the battery hits the preset point the charge controller keeps it at that point. Your batteries are roughly 80% full. Flooded batteries will start accepting less current at 80-85% full AGM/Sealed may go a little longer before accepting less current.

    On many controllers you can set this point, Some will have different presets for Flooded, and sealed batteries, or flooded, AGM, and sealed batteries. 

    The charge controller has a couple ways to know when to switch to float, Most inexpensive Charge controller are just timed for 1.5-2 hours. Some will also see less current flowing through the charge controller and shut it down when minimal current is flowing through the controller. On more expensive charge controller. You can set battery capacity to give the Controller a better idea of when to stop. you can also set a longer Absorb time. Or set 'end amps' a amount of amps flowing through the charge controller to stop Absorb and switch to the final stage.

    FLOAT;
    Once the Controller has determined the battery is fully charged it reduces the voltage to a point where very little current is flowing to the battery. This will prevent the battery from over charging and heating up.

    While in 'Float' the charge controller watch for voltage drop, which would indicate a load. If the voltage begins to drop the charge controller will allow as much current to flow from the panels/array to compensate and maintain the voltage. If the voltage can be maintained, the load will in essence be running directly off the array/solar. If the voltage drops below the preset float voltage, the controller may start a whole new cycle if it stays there for a period of time.

    The system voltage drop you see at night when the sun goes down is the charge controller moving into a resting mode with no energy to contribute to the system.

    ====================================================================

    Fork lift / Traction batteries NEED to be equalized every 30 days and maybe more often as the reach the end of their life.

    Maintenance Equalizing is a slight over charging of the battery bank to mix the electrolyte and allow weaker cells to make some correction.

    Corrective Equalizing may be required once you get your battery back to charging correctly. When things return to normal the Specific Gravity of each cell should be checked and serious imbalance corrected by Equalizing and watching the weak cell(s) come up. We'll talk more about this when you have control of the charging of your battery again.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Could we get more info about your system?
    Age
    Size of array and configuration ( 6 strings of 4 panels...)
    Parameters of your inverter for array...

    I think forklift batteries tend to want a longer absorb cycle out of the box. 

    I can check.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • shawnj72
    shawnj72 Registered Users Posts: 64 ✭✭
    System Schneider XW5848 NA two mppt 150 bat monitor conext gateway Batteries are roughly 4 years old. Cycled a few times . Always had it on 3 stage charging to grid always maintained float and worked well. Got sicked spent last two years mayo clinic and couldn't finish system. last year didnt cycle batteries but maintained the float charge. Finished the pv array. two arrays 15 = 3x5 @305 w at roughly 4k each . on a bad day will produce 2000-2500 w. Hooked up array it said to have two stage charging. it seamed to draw slightly from the batteries at night charge when the sun came out and all seamed good. I maintained the batteries a couple months ago when i hooked everything back up updated firmware in bat monitor mppt 60's and when it came back up i inversely pushed the synchronize don't believe it was a full charge. then power went out last week for a day the batteries lasted better part of the day before shutting down low voltage told wife to turn system off. when i got home i put to charge and seamed it quit rather quickly. It used to stay in bulk for roughly an hr then absorb for a good 4-5 hours. now bulk is 1-2 min absorption 10-20 min then float. and the whole time even though the batteries are at 42-45 volts the bat Mon says its full I know it uses an algo to determine battery capacity per settings but i do believe it is showing full because i pressed synchronize cant believe batteries are shot even if it was the bat mon wouldn't read full. got a 30 amp charger on each 6- 2v cells 12v and running it for two hrs each if it charges and can run the system longer than 10 min i know it isn't the batteries but just the charger and bat monitor out of sync.. I did an equalization the other day but didn't help and thought it was funny the charge cycle was done rather quickly and when the issue was found. Ive done routine equalization roughly every 3 months. The recharge voltage is where you want the voltage to be when a new charge cycle begins. i set at 50 trying to get these back to a full charge.


  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,730 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    If you do not get a good solution I can take a look on Insight at your system. I do bill for this. Nice installation !


    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dave knows these Schneider systems and has installed 100+ and remotely monitors many of them. I've never met him but he knows his stuff.

    I don't know how to ask if the system settings are to charge from the grid or from the array and perhaps that is what has changed in your system reset.

    I think as a rule, forklift batteries are not great as stand by batteries (If I understand correctly) The like to be cycled and even take a bit of cycling to reach full capacity.

    Before you go there. I would check the specific gravity of each cell in the battery and see if you have a dead cell or seriously out of balance system. The SG will tell you if you have a battery issue that has created a problem.

    To be honest, I don't even know if the 2 MPPT60 charge controllers share settings. I'm NOT a Schnieder guy (Dave is! I use Midnite CC and they share info.)

    Not sure what you are doing with the meter? Measuring a 12 volt section of the battery?
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • shawnj72
    shawnj72 Registered Users Posts: 64 ✭✭
    edited October 2022 #12
    measuring each cell is what im doing with the meter and monitoring the amps I went with the forklift batteries just for this reason.. Yes there is a bit more maintenance temdering but if things go wrong or you do something that the batteries don't like the industrial forklift is alot more forgiving. while im trying to get things right.. dont want to experiment with a 15k life pro lithium agm ect.. if i was to do again i would go with the 2v single cell system..  


  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    shawnj72 said:
    measuring each cell is what im doing with the meter and monitoring the amps I went with the forklift batteries
    You can only measure voltage with a meter, you NEED to measure the cells with a Hydrometer!

    The hydrovolt is a relatively inexpensive method of measuring the Specific Gravity of the electrolyte.

    main product photo
    MidNite Solar Battery Hydrometer | MNHydrometer | Northern Arizona Wind & Sun (solar-electric.com)

    MidNite Solar's Hydrometer - YouTube

    You can get a glass hydrometer from an auto parts store for around $10-15 (or could 3-4 years ago)
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • shawnj72
    shawnj72 Registered Users Posts: 64 ✭✭
    Thanks for the info Photowit but i realize that,,, measuring the voltage and SG of each cell.. I found that it doesnt like to sit and one or two cells were weak after many days of charging indiviual cell with the viaric and light bulb i was able to get these batteries back to a good working condition. Seams the charger didnt know how to charge correctly when it isnt in good working order.. the more equilizatiion charge and cycles brought it back to good standing.. and why i went with the industrial fork lift battery as when things go wrong it is forgiving and less hurt on the pocket book,, And dave thanks for the offer as i never give up easily,, seams like the obvious wasnt so obvious