Help, please

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DebbieK
DebbieK Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭✭
I need help. Please understand that my grasp of electricity is about as basic as knowing how to flip a switch to turn on the lights, so please dumb down any replies to the level a 5 year old would understand.

I have a 400 watt Renogy array with a Renogy MPPT40CC Controller, a Model MT-5 Meter, a Xantrex PROwatt SW 2000 inverter and 2 VMAX MR127 12 volt batteries. This entire set-up is old (6-7 years) and everything with the exception of the batteries, appears to be working properly. I had my mechanic check the batteries and they charged, but I don't think they are holding a charge.

I followed the Renogy instructions regarding hookup of controller, batteries (in parallel), panels and appropriately rated fuses and also grounded them all. I then installed the inverter with a shutoff, fuse and a meter between it and the battery. I also added a ground between the batteries and the inverter, but have since removed it.

I think my batteries are bad, but I cannot, even after trying to find answers on the internet, figure out what the readout on the meter is telling me. On the meter, it says: 14.1 V,  12.2 V 0.1 A,  200 AH 27 oC,  SOC 32% -03MV/oc,  200 AH type Sel,  0.0V 0.0A and  16 n. This was in overcast conditions, the V from the solar panels goes up to 18 at times, and the SOC goes up to 54% when the sun comes out. When the V was higher I did plug something into the inverter and it did work, but as it rarely gets above 54% SOC (which I'm assuming is the batteries state of charge) I haven't been running anything as I understand it's bad for the batteries.

I read somewhere (sorry, don't remember where) that my inverter could be drawing power down from my batteries so I disconnected it to see if the batteries would charge and it doesn't seem to be able to stay steady even without it. I know it's too much for this system, but when it was bought the thought was to expand it with more panels and batteries and I wanted one large enough to handle it.

My aims are small; I want to be able to run my pumps for my fish ponds which are 9 amp/180 watts and 1 amp/52 watts, also to maybe be able to intermittently run a freezer and/or refrigerator if I lose power during hurricane season.

I really think it's all wired correctly, so do you guys think that it's just the batteries are the problem or is there something stupid I'm overlooking? I didn't set anything up on the controller, should I have? Should the batteries be grounded? The array is on my carport roof and the other equipment is housed in a sturdy weatherproof shed. I also took the precaution of venting the battery box to outside; I'm not sure that was necessary. Any advice would be welcome.

Debbie

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  • DebbieK
    DebbieK Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭✭
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    Sorry, mistake on my part. The batteries are VMAX SLR 125 AGM Sealed deep cycle 12V 125aH.
  • littleharbor2
    littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 2,046 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    If your batteries are 6 - 7 years old it's time to replace them. That will likely take care of your problems.

     You need to shut down your whole system starting with your charge controller. Upon replacing the batteries start firing up your system with the battery connection to the charge controller. Give the controller a few minutes to boot up then turn on the solar and then the inverter. 
    when you are connecting the inverter to the batteries you will get a sudden crackling spark. It may startle you but it is normal and nothing to worry about. DO NOT CONNECT THE BATTERY CABLES FROM THE INVERTER BACKWARDS. That will damage the inverter.

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Okay, lets work on basics from your post...

    ...and the basic equation used in solar Amps x volts = watts and it's cousins watts divided by amps = volts and watts divided by volts = amps.

    DebbieK said:
    I have a 400 watt Renogy array with a Renogy MPPT40CC Controller, a Model MT-5 Meter, a Xantrex PROwatt SW 2000 inverter and 2 VMAX MR127 12 volt batteries. This entire set-up is old (6-7 years) and everything with the exception of the batteries, appears to be working properly. I had my mechanic check the batteries and they charged, but I don't think they are holding a charge.
    Not bad stuff in general.

    I search for the MT-5 meter, looked at the instructions and they don't mention 'shunt' so it's basically a voltage based meter. Though since it give a SOC (State of Charge) of 32% at 14.1 volts perhaps it's getting info from the shunt in the charge controller.

    Tracer-Meter-MT-5-For-MPPT-Solar-Charge-Controller.pdf (renogy.com)

    Yes 6–7-year-old batteries are likely dead but go ahead and work and learn with them.

    So there is a cycle to charging batteries, I wrote this for flooded lead acid batteries, but it all applies to AGM batteries like you have;

    The voltage you are seeing is the system voltage and not the battery voltage. If you are connected to charging or a load it will effect the system voltage.

    During charging, there are basically 3 stages of charging, Bulk, Absorb, and Float.

    BULK;
    First thing when charging starts you will be in bulk, the voltage rises from what ever the system voltage was to a set point, around 14.5 volts. At that point the Charge controller stops the voltage from rising. Higher voltage can damage sealed batteries.

    ABSORB;
    Once the battery hits the preset point the charge controller keeps it at that point. Your batteries are roughly 80% full. Flooded batteries will start accepting less current at 80-85% full AGM/Sealed may go a little longer before accepting less current.

    On many controllers you can set this point, Some will have different presets for Flooded, and sealed batteries, or flooded, AGM, and sealed batteries. 

    The charge controller has a couple ways to know when to switch to float, Most inexpensive Charge controller are just timed for 1.5-2 hours. Some will also see less current flowing through the charge controller and shut it down when minimal current is flowing through the controller. On more expensive charge controller. You can set battery capacity to give the Controller a better idea of when to stop. you can also set a longer Absorb time. Or set 'end amps' a amount of amps flowing through the charge controller to stop Absorb and switch to the final stage.

    FLOAT;
    Once the Controller has determined the battery is fully charged it reduces the voltage to a point where very little current is flowing to the battery. This will prevent the battery from over charging and heating up.

    While in 'Float' the charge controller watch for voltage drop, which would indicate a load. If the voltage begins to drop the charge controller will allow as much current to flow from the panels/array to compensate and maintain the voltage. If the voltage can be maintained, the load will in essence be running directly off the array/solar. If the voltage drops below the preset float voltage, the controller may start a whole new cycle if it stays there for a period of time.

    The system voltage drop you see at night when the sun goes down is the charge controller moving into a resting mode with no energy to contribute to the system.


    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    DebbieK said:
    My aims are small; I want to be able to run my pumps for my fish ponds which are 9 amp/180 watts and 1 amp/52 watts, also to maybe be able to intermittently run a freezer and/or refrigerator if I lose power during hurricane season.
    Lets look at these loads...

    9 Amps 180 watt Would be 180/9=20 volt load so this is unlikely or you are running an adapter/wall wart. That's a lot of power through a wall wart. If this was run 24 hours a day, a 180 watt load is huge! 24x180=4320 watthours.

    1 amp at 52 watts doesn't work out any better at 52 volts. Wall wart? 52 watts 24 hours a day = >1200 watts.

    These are quite large loads. 
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • DebbieK
    DebbieK Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭✭
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    Thank you for your reply, and I am trying to understand it.

    I figured that the v was indicating that this was the voltage that the panels were sending to the controller, which in turn is delivered to the batteries and then the inverter. Sometimes it will go up to as much as 18v; does this mean that I need to try to limit the voltage via the controller, as you said that the controller should limit it to around 14.5 v? If so, I'll have to call Renogy and see if it's possible with the controller I have.

    When you say play with it and learn, do you mean to wait until the SOC is 50% or more and plug things in to the inverter? The SOC is entirely dependent upon the amount of sun the panels are getting; sometimes the bars on the battery icon on the controller are full and the light blinks, which I assume means that the batteries are fully charged. They just don't stay that way and go down to 30% or so in the evening, so am I correct in assuming that the batteries aren't working properly?

    Also, from what you are saying, this array wouldn't be able to sustain my fish pond pumps. Bummer, as they really suffer when the power goes out from lack of aeration. Also, I'm cycling the fish water through a bog garden to help clean it. How much bigger would I need to go to get to the point where I could run these two pumps?

    Again, thank you for your help. Am looking at batteries to replace these, they sure have gotten expensive. Any advice on suitable ones?

    Debbie
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2022 #7
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    DebbieK said:
    I figured that the v was indicating that this was the voltage that the panels were sending to the controller, which in turn is delivered to the batteries and then the inverter. Sometimes it will go up to as much as 18v; does this mean that I need to try to limit the voltage via the controller, as you said that the controller should limit it to around 14.5 v? If so, I'll have to call Renogy and see if it's possible with the controller I have.
    Yes, v is voltage. There are likely multiple information or screens with information with a MPPT type charge controller.

    The charge controller IS a voltage controller! So long as the incoming voltage is within th charging parameters of the controller you should be fine. It's unlikely with just 2 - 200 watt panels you would be outside of it's range. You spoke of overcast conditions, with enough clouds to create conditions were there is no distinct shadow, your system is unlikely to produce more that 10% of the rated wattage.

    DebbieK said:
    When you say play with it and learn, do you mean to wait until the SOC is 50% or more and plug things in to the inverter? The SOC is entirely dependent upon the amount of sun the panels are getting; sometimes the bars on the battery icon on the controller are full and the light blinks, which I assume means that the batteries are fully charged. They just don't stay that way and go down to 30% or so in the evening, so am I correct in assuming that the batteries aren't working properly?
    The battery monitor may give you a little better indication of State of Charge SOC, but both are pretty much voltage based. Often lights just indicate the system voltage. I like to distinguish between the system voltage and the battery voltage because battery voltage particularly on AGM batteries must be measured when the batteries are at rest, no incoming or outgoing wattage. BUT the system voltage once you start charging, even batteries that are at 50% SOC will have a system voltage that will indicate voltage that is above the fully charged level. The lights for SOC are only effective when the sun is down and you have little or no loads on the system.

    I think if you have an overcast days that your system might be working fine, but with a depleted battery.

    DebbieK said:
    When you say play with it and learn, do you mean to wait until the SOC is 50% or more and plug things in to the inverter? 
    I would wait until you have a sunny day and see if your batteries become fully charged. Use these batteries now,and learn about your system. Ask questions like you are now and learn about what you can do with it.
    DebbieK said:
    Also, from what you are saying, this array wouldn't be able to sustain my fish pond pumps. Bummer, as they really suffer when the power goes out from lack of aeration. Also, I'm cycling the fish water through a bog garden to help clean it. How much bigger would I need to go to get to the point where I could run these two pumps?

    Again, thank you for your help. Am looking at batteries to replace these, they sure have gotten expensive. Any advice on suitable ones?
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    These are good questions, I'll bet your bog garden is helping to oxygenate the water!

    Might be you could run the pumps a bit in the morning and evening to help keep the levels high enough to sustain the pond eco system.

    Often systems get built without balance in mind. I think the inverter you have is very large for the balance of your system. I wouldn't buy batteries until you have a good idea of where you want to be when you have a system to meet your needs.

    Let's do some math again...

    You have a 400 watt array, which will typically produce about 300 watts per hour of direct sunlight near solar noon. Most places have reduced hours November through January. Maybe average about 3 hours a day. Producing 900 watt hours allow you to store maybe 750 watt hours in the batter bank (inefficiency charging at 14.5 volts but discharging at 12.5 volts) 

    Your VMAX SLR 125 AGM Sealed deep cycle 12V 125aH batteries could store 12v x 125 amps = 1500 watthours each or 3000 watthours total for 2. The 400 watt array allows you to charge at about 10% of the battery bank capacity, not a bad fit!

    Your 2000 watt inverter can deplete your battery bank in less than an hour, (due to something called peukert effect and that we try not to discharge our battery banks to less than 30% ever and less 50% on a daily basis.) I ran my house on a 1800 watt inverter, including fridge, window air conditioner and front load washing machine....

    So, it might appear to be oversized. BUT it might have been sized to start your pumps which might draw 8X their running load on initial startup. 

    Bigger inverters usually come with bigger base/idle loads, My old inverter ran about a 25 watt idle load, you can likely look up that info in a manual for your inverter. A 20 watt load 24 hours a day would be 480 watthours. about half watt your array is producing in much of the country during the short days of winter.

    You can evaluate how much sun you get on average this time of year at this site;

    PVWatts Calculator (nrel.gov)

    Do you have additional means of charging the battery bank?


    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • DebbieK
    DebbieK Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭✭
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    No, I don't have any additional means of charging the batteries.

    Yes, the bog both cleans the water (helps with the high nitrate levels) and aerates as it's above the pond and makes a waterfall going in. I use the fish water to water my garden and rain water (or tap, when it doesn't rain) to refill. It's great fertilizer for most plants. When the pumps stop running, the fish end up on the surface gasping for air. Since it's an artificial environment, it's really important to keep it running. The little solar pumps that are sold are too small (my pond is about 800 gallons and the bog is another 200 or so) and they don't store enough power to run overnight. I may end up getting one anyway, because it would be better than nothing.

    I have a switch between my batteries and inverter and turned it off to see if the batteries would hold a charge, thinking that it was possible that it was drawing them down. It didn't have an appreciable effect; the SOC will go up to 100% when the sun comes out and goes down to 33% or so when it's overcast.

    I turned the inverter back on and plugged in the pumps when the SOC was at 100% and the controller was blinking indicating the batteries were fully charged. The SOC went down immediately to about 54% and would go lower (33%) when the sun went behind clouds and back up in full sun. The inverter said 11.9 and 0.19 when the pumps were plugged in and 12.7 and 0.0 when they weren't. I think that means that the pumps were drawing 190 watts; is that correct? Also, one of the readings on the controller said "0.0 AH and 0.2 WH" so is that indicating that the power being is used is 200 watts? Still trying to figure out what the readings on the controller mean; the manual offers no explanation.

    So, if this system were working properly, I might expect to be able to store 750 watt hours in the winter months with about 3 hours of good sunlight. Does this mean that I'd only be able to run these pumps for about 3 hours with stored energy? It seems to me (please correct me if I'm wrong) that I'd pretty much have to triple or quadruple this system to be able to adequately run this system; many more panels and batteries, only running it in the night time and relying on solar pumps during the day. I may just be better off eating the fish and freezing the rest!

    Regardless of the problems I'm having, it's nice to have a little power that can be used in case the electricity goes out. During hurricane season, gasoline is difficult to come by as the stations often don't have power either and a generator only runs for so long...

    Again (and again) thank you for your help. I really have no idea what I'm doing; just lucky I didn't hurt myself setting this stuff up.
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    DebbieK said:
    I turned the inverter back on and plugged in the pumps when the SOC was at 100% and the controller was blinking indicating the batteries were fully charged. The SOC went down immediately to about 54% and would go lower (33%) when the sun went behind clouds and back up in full sun. The inverter said 11.9 and 0.19 when the pumps were plugged in and 12.7 and 0.0 when they weren't. I think that means that the pumps were drawing 190 watts; is that correct? Also, one of the readings on the controller said "0.0 AH and 0.2 WH" so is that indicating that the power being is used is 200 watts? Still trying to figure out what the readings on 
    Debbie, you are not understanding what I am saying about the SOC with your monitors and charge controller.

    They are likely just voltage measerments. So when you begin charging and your batteries are say 40%, the system volt, which is all they can see, is above the voltage of a fully charged battery at rest.

    This may help or confuse you... This is the rough voltage range of an AGM battery at rest;

    Battery State of Charge Chart - ElectricScooterPartscom
    Visually your monitor looks like this;


    Say your battery is 40% full and at rest it's 11.95 volts. Your charge controller limits the battery voltage to something like 14.5, and your battery is taking in all the current it can but it's only 85-90% efficent, so the voltage goes up the extra 10% to allow the current to flow from the array to the battery. 11.95 x 1.1= 13.4 volts. The battery is still only 40% full, but the 'dumb' meters see 13.4 volts and 'say or suggest that the battery is full.



    The lights are only displaying the system voltage.

    If you turned off the array/charging for a couple hours the voltage would return.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • DebbieK
    DebbieK Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭✭
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    From what you are saying, if the meter for my battery (which is just a simple gizmo that shows volts) and the one on the inverter and the controller, for example, say 12.9, then my batteries may be or may not be adequately charged? Then,what would be the best way to determine if the batteries are maintaining a charge and what their capacity is? Should I buy a multimeter or just disconnect the batteries from the controller (and consequently, the panels) and see if it holds steady?

    This is my most important question: Don't both the controller and the inverter have automatic cutoffs that won't allow the battery to go below 50% capacity?

    Sorry I'm being so stupid. When I said I had the electrical knowledge base of a 5 year old, I wasn't kidding. It would be wonderful if the batteries were functional; they've gotten so expensive.

    Debbie
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    DebbieK said:
    From what you are saying, if the meter for my battery (which is just a simple gizmo that shows volts) and the one on the inverter and the controller, for example, say 12.9, then my batteries may be or may not be adequately charged? 
    Sorry, not much time this morning. but quickly, YES! Though a voltage type monitor can be designed to determine ascent to absorb/bulk voltage, but often this doesn't work well either.

    DebbieK said:
    Then,what would be the best way to determine if the batteries are maintaining a charge and what their capacity is? Should I buy a multimeter or just disconnect the batteries from the controller (and consequently, the panels) and see if it holds steady?
    With AGM batteries, It's difficult to do without a shunt-based battery monitor. They measure the current going into and out of the battery bank. They aren't particularly inexpensive. A couple are the Trimetric and Victron BMV-700. Renogy has a shunt based one now, I've not seen one in use, but I can't think it wouldn't work.

    To see the current state of charge using voltage, you would want to disconnect everything and see where the voltage settles at usually a couple hours. You might apply a light load for a few minutes to help clear a 'surface charge'.  I would use a handheld multimeter, they are useful for a few things but connecting/switching on the inverter would work fine, it's minimal load would be negligible.

    DebbieK said:
    This is my most important question: Don't both the controller and the inverter have automatic cutoffs that won't allow the battery to go below 50% capacity?
    NO!
    This is a misconception by many. The charge controller rarely has any interaction with loads/output of the batteries. Some can be used with small DC loads. If your inverter is connected to the loads of the charge controller, your system is NOT setup correctly!

    The inverter will have a Low Voltage Shutdown, this is to protect the inverter and not the battery bank! 

    If it has a settable LVShutdown sometime people will set it to help prevent discharging the battery too much, but any preset value is to protect the inverter it's self!
    DebbieK said:
    Sorry I'm being so stupid. When I said I had the electrical knowledge base of a 5 year old, I wasn't kidding. It would be wonderful if the batteries were functional; they've gotten so expensive.
    You are doing great!
    Asking the right questions! 
    Heck, I'm being school about things I haven't thought about in years, forgot some charge controllers have a 'loads' connection. 

    Usually batteries lose capacity over time. So perhaps they can be charged to have 100% capacity at the end of a sunny day, but certainly have less capacity than new. If they aren't charging quickly, often this will be a good sign that they have a good bit of capacity.

    Do your panels have good direct sunlight?

    There have been pond aerator discussions here in the past. Might do a search and try to gleen some info from them.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • DebbieK
    DebbieK Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭✭
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    Thanks for the reply. I've been sick so haven't had a chance to mess with the solar array lately. I will definitely do a search about aerators here. Thank you for the pointers.

    I did try running things a few days ago when things were fully charged. I ran it for about an hour (it was showing 13.1 v on controller, inverter and meter) and plugged the pumps in. It immediately dropped to 12.1 and then down to 11.9 and stayed in that range after running it for about an hour and a half. This was on an overcast day.

    Still learning (hopefully!) and will try to understand more when I'm feeling better.

    Debbie