Something to start with

JetMech · February 2008

I've been looking into solar and wind power for some time now and would like to start somewhere. I'm choosing wind first because I'd like to reshingle the house in the next couple years before I cover it with panels. The downside is I can't put up a tower because my property isn't large enough. Is there a setup that will let me mount one off the roof or on a pole that is attached to the house? I already have a weather station that is about 3 feet above the roofline and I'd be willing to go above that.

BB. · February 2008

Re: Something to start with

You might want to review the link posted by our sponsor here.

What is your expectation of the amount of power you would get from a wind turbine on your home? Unless you live in a very rural area with few obstruction and lots of wind--what you are planning will, probably, give very disappointing results.

Take a look at solar PV Grid Tied electric (or solar thermal)... Your area seems to have OK solar (Around around Manchester, CT has roughly 20% less "sun" than SF, CA). You can look at these two links (here and here) to study how much power you can collect from the sun (by month and year round).

Wind systems seem like they should be very cost effective--but unless they are mounted in a windy location and free of turbulence (no trees, homes, etc., or mounted on a very tall tower), a wind turbine in an urban setting is pretty close to useless (in my humble opinion).

-Bill

niel · February 2008

Re: Something to start with

i think you should hold off until you can put together your pv system and forget about the wind at this point. when you get your roofer there ask him about what he thinks of the added weight and stresses a pv system may put on your roof. also note that the pvs in many cases outlast the shingles so don't skimp on the quality of your roofing materials. by all means check with your local municipality as they may have need to inspect the work done or may even have asthetic laws on the books. pvs may or may not slide under the radar of asthetics laws, but what chance do most wind generators have? finally, a wind generating system will most likely not be enough to maintain the entire battery system that would be realized when the solar would've been added later. you can't just add the batteries later either as the batteries should not be mixed even if of the same type and brand if seperated by years in time.

JetMech · February 2008

Re: Something to start with

While we don't have a steady wind, it's not uncommon to see between 6-12 mph on my weather station. We live on the side of a large hill so I think that helps. I'm not looking to solve my home's energy problems, I'm just hoping to shave a bit off our $300+ electric bill each month. (I've already converted every light I can to flourescent and when something needs replacing we get Energy Star products...) I do plan on getting good, long-lasting shingles before the solar would go up. Solar-water heating is also an idea to lighten th e load on our hot-water heater.

BB. · February 2008

Re: Something to start with

6 mph wind = 1 watt of power from a typical wind turbine... 12 mph = the beginnings of making reasonable power.

Solar Grid tied power for your area (based on 80% of what my system produces) would be ~$0.25 / kWhr * 1/80% = $0.31 per kWhr (full retail install costs, no local or federal rebates/tax credits included).

If you are looking to save money, some sort of solar heating/solar hot water would probably have a better pay-back.

What is your power costs right now? $0.115 per kWhr was quoted by one website. In California, we have "tiered rates"--basically the more power you use the higher rates you pay. The higher rates can be $0.30 to $0.50 per kWhr (above ~1,000 kWhrs / month), so offsetting the "higher rate tiers" can actually "make money" with solar right from the beginning.

If you have electric hot water / electric heat, then addressing those specifically with other solutions (propane, solar thermal, ground sourced heat pumps, etc.) would be much "cheaper" to reduce costs rather than just "tossing" solar (or wind) grid tied RE systems at the problem.

Insulation (I had to strip my walls for my 70 year old home), changing to double pane vinyl windows, putting in skylights for stairwell/dark rooms, etc. will also be very good places to to spend your conservation dollars too.

To offset a ~$40 per month electric bill in Connecticut would take approximately $30,000 (retail, installed) solar panels (3.5 kW of solar panels, grid tied inverter, ~4,100 kWhrs per year of electricity production).

-Bill

mike95490 · February 2008

Re: Something to start with

Roof mounted wind power is not suggested. The vibration and rumble from the propeller will resonate thru the whole house. Even mounting a 40' pole in cement, and having a brace at the roof, will couple enough noise into the structure, that most mammals will move out.

niel · February 2008

Re: Something to start with

JetMech wrote: »

While we don't have a steady wind, it's not uncommon to see between 6-12 mph on my weather station. We live on the side of a large hill so I think that helps. I'm not looking to solve my home's energy problems, I'm just hoping to shave a bit off our $300+ electric bill each month. (I've already converted every light I can to flourescent and when something needs replacing we get Energy Star products...) I do plan on getting good, long-lasting shingles before the solar would go up. Solar-water heating is also an idea to lighten th e load on our hot-water heater.

hillbilly,
if you don't already have one then please get a kill-a-watt meter so that it may help you to identify where the drains on the electric are coming from. you will find that some bad habits can be identified with it along with phathom loads you may or may not have been aware of. don't over look some things you may take for granted like old furnaces or electric hot water tanks. even if your furnace isn't all electric odd are it uses electric for pushing the heat. the kill-a-watt meter won't measure some of those items of course because they are hardwired.

JetMech · February 2008

Re: Something to start with

mike90045 wrote: »

Roof mounted wind power is not suggested. The vibration and rumble from the propeller will resonate thru the whole house. Even mounting a 40' pole in cement, and having a brace at the roof, will couple enough noise into the structure, that most mammals will move out.

But my fish will be OK? :roll:
Good point.

JetMech · February 2008

Re: Something to start with

niel wrote: »

hillbilly,
if you don't already have one then please get a kill-a-watt meter so that it may help you to identify where the drains on the electric are coming from. you will find that some bad habits can be identified with it along with phathom loads you may or may not have been aware of. don't over look some things you may take for granted like old furnaces or electric hot water tanks. even if your furnace isn't all electric odd are it uses electric for pushing the heat. the kill-a-watt meter won't measure some of those items of course because they are hardwired.

hillbilly...lol

No, I don't have one. Although I'm in a constant battle with the other mammals in my house to turn off lights, tvs and such. Even when I find out what's draining, I don't know how much it will help. For instance, the wife won't unplug her cell phone charger...ever! It doesn't matter if the phone is connected to it or not.

JetMech · February 2008

Re: Something to start with

BB. wrote: »

6 mph wind = 1 watt of power from a typical wind turbine... 12 mph = the beginnings of making reasonable power.

Solar Grid tied power for your area (based on 80% of what my system produces) would be ~$0.25 / kWhr * 1/80% = $0.31 per kWhr (full retail install costs, no local or federal rebates/tax credits included).

If you are looking to save money, some sort of solar heating/solar hot water would probably have a better pay-back.

What is your power costs right now? $0.115 per kWhr was quoted by one website. In California, we have "tiered rates"--basically the more power you use the higher rates you pay. The higher rates can be $0.30 to $0.50 per kWhr (above ~1,000 kWhrs / month), so offsetting the "higher rate tiers" can actually "make money" with solar right from the beginning.

If you have electric hot water / electric heat, then addressing those specifically with other solutions (propane, solar thermal, ground sourced heat pumps, etc.) would be much "cheaper" to reduce costs rather than just "tossing" solar (or wind) grid tied RE systems at the problem.

Insulation (I had to strip my walls for my 70 year old home), changing to double pane vinyl windows, putting in skylights for stairwell/dark rooms, etc. will also be very good places to to spend your conservation dollars too.

To offset a ~$40 per month electric bill in Connecticut would take approximately $30,000 (retail, installed) solar panels (3.5 kW of solar panels, grid tied inverter, ~4,100 kWhrs per year of electricity production).

-Bill

-Bill

Insulation is definitely something I need to focus on this summer. If we re-side the house this year, I hope to get a good look underneath and perhaps re-insulate. Our water heater is a high energy rated electric unit, but it is 80 gal for all the loads our house has. I think the solar-water may be my first step after all to help lighten the load.

niel · February 2008

Re: Something to start with

JetMech wrote: »

hillbilly...lol

No, I don't have one. Although I'm in a constant battle with the other mammals in my house to turn off lights, tvs and such. Even when I find out what's draining, I don't know how much it will help. For instance, the wife won't unplug her cell phone charger...ever! It doesn't matter if the phone is connected to it or not.

my appologies jetmech as i got confused between threads as to who it was i was addressing. i feel your situation as it has taken me 17 years to get my wife to conserve somewhat and though she doesn't leave all of the lights on now she does leave 6 of them on and all but 1 has cfls. it is reflective of our lazy society i think.

JetMech · February 2008

Re: Something to start with

niel wrote: »

my appologies jetmech as i got confused between threads as to who it was i was addressing. i feel your situation as it has taken me 17 years to get my wife to conserve somewhat and though she doesn't leave all of the lights on now she does leave 6 of them on and all but 1 has cfls. it is reflective of our lazy society i think.

No problem, I thought it was because I lived on a hill...

Yep, she's better than she was, but it's still frustrating!

BB. · February 2008

Re: Something to start with

Yes, get the kill-a-watt meter... For ~$30, you can find out what plug-in appliance(s) are killing you.

Space heating, hot water, fridge, electric range, etc. are probably what is killing you. And using solar electric panels grid tie/off-grid is not a good application for those (horrendously expensive and a huge installation of panels).

At this point, save your marriage and don't worry about the cell phone chargers. For example:

5 watt * 24 hours per day * 30 daypermonth * $0.115pkWh / 1,000w/kW) = $0.41 per month per "5 watt wasted load"...

You might also look at Time Of Use (TOU) metering plans (if you have them). If you can set your large loads (like hot water, cooking, etc.) for the off-peak times, you might save some cash. Although, be careful, many of these time of use plans (and utility controlled interruptible load plans) have fine print that don't always work well for the customer.

Aim at the "big stuff" first.

-Bill

icarus · February 2008

Re: Something to start with

Wind seems like such an easy idea, simple cheap, free.

Nearly all RE experts agree that small scale wind should (in most cases) come last in any plan. If memory serves the order of cost effectiveness comes, conservation, passive solar heat, solar water heat, PV, and finally wind.

The problem with small scale wind is that for comparatively little output, it comes with significant infrastructure and mechanical hardware. Small scale wind turns at high speed with a number of moving parts, all of which need to be maintained. The experts agree that wind turbines must be ~30' (10m) above any obstructions to gain enough stable wind to be reliable.

I live in a climate where it blow, hard much of the time, but it doesn't blow steady. The variable nature makes is problematic because much of the time it blows too hard, while the rest of the time not hard enough.

As others have suggested, look seriously into this, read all you can, and above all, avoid the ready, fire aim syndrome! There are a lot of rusting wind gennies out there that people have given up on.

Icarus

Something to start with

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