Getting started, and here are a few questions. Please advise.

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showme
showme Registered Users Posts: 94 ✭✭
Although I've been reading and researching and gathering for years, I'm now ready to put the rubber to the road, and there are some things I just am not quite understanding. I have 8kw of LG Neon 320w panels to start off with, and I'll be running them through 2 Xantrex SW5548's in series. One of the first things I'm having trouble with is how, exactly, do I figure how many panels to wire in series before paralleling them into the combiner? are rated at 33.6 vmpp and 9.53 impp with a max system voltage of 1000v. The two 5548's are new old stock, never used, still in original boxes. I also acquired 2 C40's with the inverters, but plan on purchasing midnite solar classic controllers, although I'm a bit confused on exactly which model I would need with an 8k system. I may also be adding a 1.5kw Bergey XL.1 genny, but I'm not sure at this point if I'll need it. If anyone can get me kick started on the basics here, I'd sure appreciate it. I'm ready to go, but I want to completely understand it before I start. Thanks, Lee

"Knowing is not enough, we must apply. Willing is not enough, we must do."   Goethe

2006 Trace Xantrex power panel, (3) SW5548 inverters- 2 NOS Trace's (1999) and 1 Trace/Xantrex 2006 for back up (came with power panel. et al), Xantrex DC/disconnect, Xantrex AC disconnect/bypass, (3) C40 PWM charge controllers- 2 NOS, one used. (8)Evergreen  Solar 120w (960w),  8k LG Neon 2, (25) 320w, Bergey XL.1 1.5k genny, Air X 400 genny (came with used system), 48v Interstate Workman batts (now frozen/toast), (2) Montana Solar adjustable Top of Pole 12 array racks, (2) Midnite Solar MSPV 4 combiner boxes, (2) Midnite Solar Classic 150's (one an SL), SOK LiFePo stack of 500ah and one nice Ozark hilltop to set them all on.


Comments

  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,457 admin
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    If I am following you correctly, the reason you are confused is probably because you are "starting in the middle" of system design. Trying to figure out a mix of different hardware/options and not anything to aim at (no target).

    I highly suggest that you start with your loads... Lots of conservation (every efficient loads, avoid electric heating devices, use off grid solar friendly devices like well pump motors that have low or no surge, etc.).

    You define the loads, which defines the battery bank (Amp*Hour and Voltage). Then you design the charging sources that "keep the battery bank" (the 'heart' of your system) happy. The two sets of solar panel calculations (to set the proper charging current to the battery bank, and the amount of panel vs where you live, hours of sun per day by season, to keep up with your daily loads). And sometimes decisions of Larger Array (if useful for winter) vs biting the bullet and going with a genset for winter.

    Basically we end up with a "paper design" of your system (battery bank, solar array, AC inverter) basics... Then you start picking the hardware that fit your needs.

    Alternatively, we can start with something (like your solar array), design a system that works with the solar array (balanced system design--Solar panel vs Battery bank sizing). And then "predict" how that system will behave (Peak Watts, Watt*Hours per day by season, etc.).

    Without a "stake in the ground", it is very easy to go around in circles trying to sort things out.

    For example, power wise:
    • 500-1,000 WH per day (LED lighting, laptop computer, cell phone charging, 12 volt water pump) for cabin (1,000 WH per day = 1 kWH per day = 30 kWH per month). Call this a small system
    • 3,300 WH per day (or ~100 kWH per month)--The above plus a refrigerator, "solar friendly" well pump, LED TV, clothes washer (very efficient cabin/small home, with lots of conservation). Call this a mid-size system for an off grid home (maybe $10-30,000 system).
    • 10,000 WH per day (or ~300 kWH per month). A full size North American home, lots of conservation, some electric cooking. Some light AC/Heat pump heating... Not a "cheap system".
    Off grid solar power is not cheap. What tends to drive the costs up are the Battery Banks, charge controllers, and AC inverters--Batteries that last 3-7 years, electronics that last 10+ years, and system "losses" of close to 50% for off grid solar.

    Very roughly, off grid solar energy costs around $1.00 to $2.00+ per kWH. A few folks have gotten their costs down to $0.50-$0.80 per kWH. But that means very careful energy management and taking care of your battery bank.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • showme
    showme Registered Users Posts: 94 ✭✭
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    Thanks, BB. I do realize that I'm kind of getting the cart before the horse, and the information I gave was incomplete. Here's my problem. We've bought land to build our earth home (underground), and we're presently living in a 100 year old frame/stick built house. We're also presently using electric AC, water heater, oven, desk top computer, sump pump, basement dehumidifier, etc. When I try to estimate our future use, the heating and cooling will be non-existant (wood heat when needed, and we're going to install an LG split combo AC/heat unit that will run off of the 960w Evergreen panels we have, if ever needed. Probably not), and the well pump will be a high efficiency Grunfoss flex, and may be hooked up to it's own panels, too. So as of now, I'm going with the amount we're living on now, with the idea that anything we have extra is good. We will have a high efficiency air exchanger, though I don't know exactly what draw it will have, since we're not there yet to know how many hours a day it will need to run, if at all. So my biggest problem is estimating our use when we get there.

    Right now, I've just about decided to forego lead acid batteries for either LiFePo or Nickel Edison's. I'm 61 and my wife is 56, and I'd just as soon not have to worry about a new set every 7-10 years (or the work of moving them multiple times), and the lithium's would keep us from the maintenance (watering, venting, corrosion, equalizing, and paying for replacements), so that's almost settled.

    I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the process of how to wire these modules into a usable 48v configuration that will fit whatever 48v battery bank and my 48v dual inverter system? From what I've read in books, the defunct Homepower magazine, forums such as this one, et. al., the voltage coming into the combiner can't be over that 48v limit, and these panels are rated at 33.3Vmpp and 40.8Voc. That seems to me that none could be run in series, and all would have to be run parallel. What am I missing here? This isn't rocket science, but it's got me confused.

    Just the idea that we are going from a full blown 'wasteful' grid electric home (our heat is gas here), to a completely different end of the spectrum is really giving me head spins. For example, our recent June electric bill shows we've used 5,785kwh in 6 months (January-June). I believe our year end total for 2018 was 11,000kwh, or 12 months of use. I'm now in the process of designing our new home, which will be 2400sf of living space with 900sf of 3 bay garage. All under 3-4' of soil except for the southern face. I'm still mapping out outlets, lights, water and sewer lines, and aside from knowing we'll be using LED lights, I'm still not sure what our estimated use will be. Although we've bought our LG inverter compressor fridge, and we'll have a Peerless Premier gas stove with battery powered ignitors for efficiency. And, yes, we'll have a propane powered back up generator, an Olympia 11kw unit that was a back up unit for a remote Bell telephone installation. Sorry about all this info overload.

    But I planned on doing this 15 years ago, but an injuries from my job in the Ironworkers has had me sitting and waiting for the lawyers on the work comp, social security and second injury fund to come to a settlement. I've been waiting till this was done to actually make any real moves to get started. We just bought the property last fall after the settlement was finalized. So! Even though I'm not ready to get out there and wire this system up, now is the time to ask questions and educate myself. I haven't even installed my ground array steel yet. How do people figure out what is the correct configuration of modules in an 8kw system?? It seems to me that given the module info and the system voltage they have to feed would be the first step in lining up the rest of the system, eventually, would it not? My equipment is bought and paid for, short of the variation on the controllers and the battery bank. What's it take to get the panels linked up to feed it?

    "Knowing is not enough, we must apply. Willing is not enough, we must do."   Goethe

    2006 Trace Xantrex power panel, (3) SW5548 inverters- 2 NOS Trace's (1999) and 1 Trace/Xantrex 2006 for back up (came with power panel. et al), Xantrex DC/disconnect, Xantrex AC disconnect/bypass, (3) C40 PWM charge controllers- 2 NOS, one used. (8)Evergreen  Solar 120w (960w),  8k LG Neon 2, (25) 320w, Bergey XL.1 1.5k genny, Air X 400 genny (came with used system), 48v Interstate Workman batts (now frozen/toast), (2) Montana Solar adjustable Top of Pole 12 array racks, (2) Midnite Solar MSPV 4 combiner boxes, (2) Midnite Solar Classic 150's (one an SL), SOK LiFePo stack of 500ah and one nice Ozark hilltop to set them all on.


  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Midnite or pretty much any decent mppt controller will buck string voltage from ~120v to charging voltage.  If you're going a long way (>150' or so) from array to controller, going to higher string voltage makes sense.  Higher string voltage allows for lower current and smaller wire, at the cost of a bit lower efficiency. Midnite and other controller makers have string calculators which can be useful figuring out series wiring for a particular panel. 

    41Voc in strings of 3 would likely work ok with a Classic 150, but depends on record low temperature at your location, length of run, and wire size.


    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,457 admin
    edited December 2021 #5
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    Showme,

    I can help work out a "model" of your system with what equipment you have and where you live (nearest major city--"Show Me state"--Missouri?).

    Energy usage is a highly personal set of choices. And I certainly cannot tell you how much energy usage is correct for you... But at ~1,000 kWH per month, that is pretty much the bit on the high side North American average (around 500-1,000 kWH per month average--Which covers a wide range of climates and homes).

    Trying to size a system for good sized/earth berm home... Really just a wild guess. And not sure your of you hobbies (wood/metal shop, painting, etc.).

    My suggestion would be (if you are living on site--possibly in an RV)--Build a small system with 2-6 "golf cart batteries" (6 volt @ ~200 AH flooded cell). Use them for quiet time (evening/nights) and use a genset when more power is needed (such as Morning vacuuming, cooking. And evening meals/washing/etc.).

    If you want to run a full size electric (Energy Star rated) refrigerator/freezer (vs, for example, a propane refrigerator), then you are looking at 3,300 WH per day and a 24 volt @ ~660 AH battery bank (4x golf cart batteries in series for 24 volts and 3x parallel strings of ~220 AH or 660 AH battery bank). There are alternatives--But those are the choices you need to make (smaller DC powered fridge/freezer, living on site vs commuting to build site, etc.).

    For a larger system (8kWatt array is not small), your Xantrex C40 controllers are not going to be useful for the full size system, or possibly even the "RV size" system... You need a larger Midnite or Outback class of MPPT charge controllers for the large system, and .

    Using a Grundfos pump + attached panels is great for well pumping to a cistern... Then use a surface pump from your battery bank (12 volt RV pump for small system, or other surface pump for the home when finished). Some regions (like in the USA south west, you may find fire codes require you to have large cisterns with pumps, or you may want to do your own fire suppression system). Choices/code/etc.

    Talking with off grid people here, and possibly around your location, they can give you ideas about what they need for their lives and lifestyle. I am on on-grid, so others here have "real" experience with off grid that I don't. And there is always the question of DYI vs hiring an engineer/installer for your system. A 3,300 WH per day system (~100 kWH per month)--Probably something a person with construction/electrical experience can do. A 10,000 WH per day (300 kWH per month) system--Especially if first time DIY, I would suggest getting some professional help (and check references). Your mileage may vary.

    LiFePO4 (lithium iron) batteries are getting pretty close to being more cost effective and more capable than flooded cell (longer life, smaller AH battery bank, less issues with maintenance, etc.).

    NiFe batteries--A fair amount of maintenance involved (mixing/changing electrolyte every X years) and less efficient (like 65% vs 80-90 for lead acid/AGM, or >98% for Li Ion).

    I suggest the small system for RV/local power/lights, and a couple gensets (smaller like Honda inverter-gensets for smaller tools and charging batteries, a larger/cheap genset for heavy tools). And wait until your home is mostly complete before spec'ing/building your final system. Most of the parts from the small system will probably not be moveable to the final system. Some folks have kept the small system for an outbuilding/guest house/backup.

    Do you want to work on the "small system" first? Or try and work both in parallel? Or design the large system and use it for building site/living on site?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    FWIW, I think there's a lot to be said for a small system to start with.  We used a pair of GC2 batteries (~225ah@12v), charging with generator during the day while using power tools.  Among other things, it really helps clarify what loads you can live without, which ones you run as opportunity loads when extra power is available, and those you really have to run rain or shine.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • stmoloud
    stmoloud Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭
    edited July 2019 #7
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    I can run corded jigsaw, angle grinder, and belt sander off my system and through the inverter, although only for a few minutes a day and not all of them on the same day. Have to turn off inverter fridge freezer otherwise if that comes on while using the tool there's a chance the inverter will trip out. It can be done with some planning, for instance on the morning of a forecasted sunny day is a good time. Of course having a generator is great but the expense has to be justified.
    760W panel array, 4 x 6v 220 ah Crown batteries, Tristar TS-45 PWM controller,  no name 600 PSW inverter. 
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2021 #8
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    I'll comment on the NiFe batteries.  I'm into the 2nd batch (factory, and now this last summer, a changeout) of electrolyte.  It's not an old mans battery. They are big & heavy, and a lot of them (1.2V)
    it was a full week of planning and building assist fixtures for the draining. Then another week of the actual unbolting the bank, moving the cells out, dumping, mixing electrolyte , returning cells and refilling them.
      A 100 gallons of distilled, lots of work, and good for another 10 years
    I then installed a battery watering system, because 2 hours every 6 weeks to add water was a pain.
      Now it's only 2 hours every 2 months and about 10 gallons of distilled.
    As to the batteries, no worries.  They don't sulfate.  They don't go bad.  The electrolyte is what wears out, $3K for a new batch and you are in business again.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • showme
    showme Registered Users Posts: 94 ✭✭
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    I just found this post after all this time. Sorry, guys, I wasn't ignoring you all. To be honest, when I asked this question, I thought I would get an email notification, but didn't. But I'm back on, and the project is getting under way. Thanks for your replies! Bill, I may be getting hold of you.

    "Knowing is not enough, we must apply. Willing is not enough, we must do."   Goethe

    2006 Trace Xantrex power panel, (3) SW5548 inverters- 2 NOS Trace's (1999) and 1 Trace/Xantrex 2006 for back up (came with power panel. et al), Xantrex DC/disconnect, Xantrex AC disconnect/bypass, (3) C40 PWM charge controllers- 2 NOS, one used. (8)Evergreen  Solar 120w (960w),  8k LG Neon 2, (25) 320w, Bergey XL.1 1.5k genny, Air X 400 genny (came with used system), 48v Interstate Workman batts (now frozen/toast), (2) Montana Solar adjustable Top of Pole 12 array racks, (2) Midnite Solar MSPV 4 combiner boxes, (2) Midnite Solar Classic 150's (one an SL), SOK LiFePo stack of 500ah and one nice Ozark hilltop to set them all on.


  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    After 2+ weeks without sun, I've run into a problem.   My new inverter/charger cannot output enough voltage to charge my NiFe bank, and I'm basically on generator power till the sun comes back next week ( maybe)  I think I'm running on the bottom 1/4 of the bank capacity.
    And I'm going to need several days of good sun to pump the batteries back up to full.  My MPPT controllers work fine, in the sun,


    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,457 admin
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    Showme,

    You can edit your profile to notification preferences:

    https://forum.solar-electric.com/profile/preferences/

    I have turned on email notifications for your discussions (the check/status boxes did not copy. Both email and popups...):

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    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • showme
    showme Registered Users Posts: 94 ✭✭
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    Thanks, Bill! I looked, but sometimes I can look right at something and still miss it.

    "Knowing is not enough, we must apply. Willing is not enough, we must do."   Goethe

    2006 Trace Xantrex power panel, (3) SW5548 inverters- 2 NOS Trace's (1999) and 1 Trace/Xantrex 2006 for back up (came with power panel. et al), Xantrex DC/disconnect, Xantrex AC disconnect/bypass, (3) C40 PWM charge controllers- 2 NOS, one used. (8)Evergreen  Solar 120w (960w),  8k LG Neon 2, (25) 320w, Bergey XL.1 1.5k genny, Air X 400 genny (came with used system), 48v Interstate Workman batts (now frozen/toast), (2) Montana Solar adjustable Top of Pole 12 array racks, (2) Midnite Solar MSPV 4 combiner boxes, (2) Midnite Solar Classic 150's (one an SL), SOK LiFePo stack of 500ah and one nice Ozark hilltop to set them all on.