how to wire battery bank? wire size? log types?

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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
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    Equalization "typically" for AGM is just holding the charging voltage set point (~14.4 volts for AGM typically) for something like >8 hours to slowly help balance the cells.

    Best to check with the battery vendor/documentation to see what they recommend. As I remember, the recommendations have changed over the years (from no EQ to Extended "absorb" EQ for AGMs in general).

    The big thing is to keep AGM from gassing very much--This wears out the catalyst (there is a limit of XXX AH of life for the catalyst pellet during gassing, there is heat generated by the catalyst/gassing, and too much gassing/pressure causes the battery cell to vent and lose electrolyte/hydrogen/oxygen--not a good thing). As I understand.

    -Bill "others know better than I" B.
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • minisolar
    minisolar Solar Expert Posts: 158 ✭✭
    edited August 2020 #33
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    I will speak with battery manufacturer. 

    The batteries will get generator chargered at night for 8-10 hours. They will obviously go through the stages automatically via agm iq probe that I will install.

    I will read about how to prevent gassing and make sure battery life is kept well.


    Oh and great so that USB port is all good. 

    The only other dc load is the toilet fan which pulls nothing as I mentioned before. Two questions about that one - should I also try to find out about if the fan can withstand volt variations? In the installation manual they say that the wire has an inline fuse built in from factory... 

    Maybe to be safe I'll get an inexpensive inline stabilizer to make sure the 12v is maintained? This fan is the only item that will need to run 24/7 and the only item likely to be left on when we leave... So I want to make sure it runs smoothly and safely even if I am over killing it. 

    2nd question about this fan - as you can see from attached image it is supplied with alligator connectors. Obviously I don't want that. Ideally I want to remove those and install something that will plug into a something else so it is safer.. Essentially an a plug and an outlet but for dc... Any suggestions? 

    A thought - iota said that since the charger has a built in 30 amp fuse (changeable) I do not need to put a circuit breaker between charger and batteries. If I do put one - I then won't be able to maintain the same length wire between charger and batteries - hence not perfect balance charge. I am leaning to not have a circuit breaker there. Agree? 



  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
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    For the DC fan... See if you can find a data sheet like this:

    https://www.jameco.com/Jameco/Products/ProdDS/2306263.pdf

    This above fan has a 10.2 to 13.8 volt rated voltage range. Pushing to 15+ volts is a bit much...

    You could find an over-sized 24 volt fan and run it slower/lower voltage (12 volt range).

    It is always a big issue between running stuff out of spec, vs adding additional hardware (buck/boost power supply) is another point of failure.

    Fusing is to protect wiring and is generally mounted "close" to the source high current (like the battery + bus bar, or load center). A fuse at the destination does not protect a wire getting shorted to ground 1/2 to the load.

    Running a little power converter (good cooling, protected from dust/dirt/moisture/high temperatures) should be OK.

    There is always the risk of running your battery down when nobody is around (snow on array, failed wiring/panel/charge controller, etc.).

    If, for example, you can live with the fan just running during the day, a small solar panel connected directly to the DC fan is another option. Let chances for failures to take out your $$$ battery bank (if unattended for months at a time).

    I agree with you that alligator clamps make for very unreliable connections.

    Anderson power pole connectors are very nice for DC power--Common for HAM radio. Probably overkill for a simple DC fan:

    https://www.amazon.com/s?k=anderson+power+pole+connectors&crid=36AYBN49RQ6ET&sprefix=anderson+power+pole+connectors

    You can also try any RV style plugs--Here is one:

    https://www.amazon.com/Electop-Weatherproof-Universal-Flush-Mountable-Connector/dp/B07V6NJ37P

    Some folks have used twist lock AC plugs and outlets, they are for 120/240/etc. VAC, but you can find good quality/cheaper ones for your DC wiring. I would not go with the "cigarette lighter" style plug and socket--I don't think they are reliable.

    Again, the fuse inside the inverter does not protect your wire run from inverter to battery bus. Adding a fuse or breaker (breakers are nice--You can use them on on/off switches too). The idea is to protect your wiring from shorts (short wires are less likely to get shorted--Wiring from charger to battery bus should not be very long). Make sure no sharp edges where wire can get cut, etc...

    And what you want is "equal length" wiring between multiple strings of batteries. If one string end to end bus connections are short, and the second string has 5 feet longer total length of wiring, the "extra resistance" of the longer wire run will reduce loading and charging currents for that longer string/wire run vs the "short run" string.

    http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/batt_con.html

    The DC +/- wires to the charge controller from the battery bank--The two wires do not have to be the "same length".

    With any devices that can create Radio Frequency Interference (aka electrical noise) and/or if you have lightning in the area, you want your DC (and AC) wire runs to be close together (in same conduit, or bundle tied together, or twisted together, etc.). Doing that makes for a "poor antenna".

    If you have "loops" (Hot/Neutral or +/- wires take "different routes"), makes for better antennas (more possible radio interference, more susceptible to lightning induced currents).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • minisolar
    minisolar Solar Expert Posts: 158 ✭✭
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    Thanks Bill.

    I've emailed the toilet comapnt about fan specs. Let's see what they say. 

    I like the rv style one. Seems simple. So I'd cut the wire then run the female line to my batteries via extension and heat shrink then do the same for the male side to the fan - cutting those alligators. And.. I will be all set. 

    You mentioned inverter but I was talking about the standalone iota charger. This charger has a built in 30amp fuse (the one you have in cars so I can easily swap). Iota originally mentioned that in order to maintain perfect balance while charging I need to have the cables/wires from standalone charger be the same length for both positive and negative. If I can put a circuit breaker inline on the positive line without interfering with that then I will be happy to do it. Let me know how. 

    Also, I almost done modeling in 3d my power closet. I always to that to perfect scale so I can forsee issues and plan where things should go. The way I set this up the pos and neg wires from charger to batteries will be about 2 ft. I believe that means I can do either a 8awg or 6 awg for that? 

    I had a terrible time trying to find a proper busbar that will work. Closest I got is a busbar that had 4 slots for 2/0 but that is still not enough or just enough and I would like to have more slots for future changes... This surprised me since I new many folks here have much more than 6 batteries.. How do they connect all positive lines with inverter and such? 

    Any suggestion on what I can use? 

    I saw some who use those post bus bars. Something like this https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B07THLX93D/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_29MpFb7ZCSBYZ

    Problem is I can't find many of these and the one from Amazon is horrible reviews. 





  • Aguarancher
    Aguarancher Solar Expert Posts: 315 ✭✭✭
    edited August 2020 #36
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    Go to the "store" link at the top of this page and type in "bus bar" in the search. You will find multiple bus bars there..
  • minisolar
    minisolar Solar Expert Posts: 158 ✭✭
    edited August 2020 #37
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    Go to the "store" link at the top of this page and type in "bus bar" in the search. You will find multiple bus bars there..
    I did. None seem to be able to grab all in one neat place... Unless I'm missing something

    I'm assuming I can use two of these? https://www.altestore.com/store/enclosures-electrical-safety/miscellaneous-electrical-parts/busbars/midnite-solar-20-terminal-busbar-black-15-wires-p40434/

    Then connect them together? 

    Or the one from Amazon I gave a link before. Bad reviews are due to bolts getting stuck which is solvable per one user by using nyalon nuts instead and anti locking gel. It is rated for 250amp. Is that enough? 
  • Aguarancher
    Aguarancher Solar Expert Posts: 315 ✭✭✭
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    You can always make your own out of solid copper bar stock and isolated stand offs if you're handy at this kind of project.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
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    Sorry--You are right, changer, not inverter (although, many inverters have internal fuses too on the DC input).

    I really do not see sweating over a (example) 3 foot positive cable and a 4 foot negative cable from the battery charger to the battery bus bars.

    And you see the issues with heavy copper cables--Trying to terminate the ends becomes difficult and costly (expensive terminations, possibly hydraulic crimper, and finding bus bars that "fit").

    That link to the Midnite bus bars on Altestore look good.

    Home Depot has some Copper Lugs that will accept all the way to 3/0 (larger than 2/0):

    https://www.homedepot.com/s/copper%20lug?NCNI-5

    Here is one member that did DIY battery bus bars:

    http://2manytoyz.com/battbank.html

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • minisolar
    minisolar Solar Expert Posts: 158 ✭✭
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    Thank you Bill. 

    I am thinking on using these: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07THLYYH3/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    Questions:

    1. Can I use multiple lugs, for example, the 3 negatives coming from my batteries, to sit on one of those bolts if they fit? or is that a no no and they need to be each on it's own bolt? 
    2. Another question, I am shopping for cables 2 awg, 2/0, and so on. Pre-made ones with lugs. I notice that the 2 awg come in either 5/16 or 3/8 lug but the 2/0 is sold with 3/8 lugs only in the few sites I have seen. Is there a reason for that?  which leads to my next question
    3. The above linked busbar comes in either 5/16 or 3/8... is it ok to have a 5/16 busbar and then have 3/8 lugs on it from the cable? 
    4. That busbar is rated at 250amp. Is that enough? 
    5. Cable length from my IOTA charger to my batteries will be 4ft. If I do a circuit breaker between them then I can get a 3ft and a 1 ft for the positive line circuit breaker to try and match resistance? ... Please keep in mind that the IOTA has a 30 amp fuse that is easily accessible and can be changed cheaply. Then the question is: what is more important another circuit breaker or two complete 4ft cable with interruption? 
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
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    I believe you can stack connections... Just make sure the end of the stud/bolt extends a couple threads beyond the nut (at least).

    The bolt/stud is part of the current path--But so are the faces of the terminal lugs.

    It looks like from your link, they are using 3/8" for positive and 5/16" for negative connections--To avoid mixing "wrong" polarity cabling? (same as on a car battery, the positive terminal is larger in diameter than the negative terminal for easy identification and correct terminal placement.

    I would avoid placing 3/8 diameter lug on 5/16 stud--If possible. You want solid connections.

    If you look around, you can probably find 3/8 and 5/16 lugs... Here is a kit from Amazon:

    https://www.amazon.com/Battery-Welding-Flexible-Terminal-Connectors/dp/B07K4W2PX3

    McMaster Carr also has 2 AWG lugs, but they are available in 3/8 and 1/2 inch:

    https://www.mcmaster.com/copper-lug-terminals/for-wire-gauge~2-0/wire-connection-type~compression/

    You are getting out of my depth here... Notice there are lugs with two holes for bus bar connections... That is (was?) a requirement for telecommunications equipment in a central office (redundant connections).

    We had a member here that did some laboratory measurements on copper water pipes (note that in the USA, there are two thickness of copper pipe used in construction) if you want to make a DIY bus bar with bolts and crushed copper water pipe:

    https://forum.solar-electric.com/discussion/comment/108378#Comment_108378

    For your 12 volt system, the maximum a 1,500 Watt inverter will pull is ~168 Amps--So 250 Amp rated bus bar is fine.

    The engineer in me would say--Use a fuse/breaker at the bus bar (or close too it--Close is something like 18" in marine code, or something like that). You are protecting the wire from short circuits (say wire pulls from terminal end at charge controller and shorts out--The fuses in the Iota will not do any good to prevent a fire).

    Practically speaking, there are probably more installations out there that have no fuse/breaker on branch circuits like this (expensive/pain to install). It is your choice.

    Blue Sea makes some really nice close fuse holders that are not much bigger than a wiring terminal (does not include fuse)--As well as other heavy duty more traditional fuse holders:

    https://www.bluesea.com/products/5191/MRBF_Terminal_Fuse_Block_-_30_to_300A

    Product Image

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • minisolar
    minisolar Solar Expert Posts: 158 ✭✭
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    Once again great info Bill. I really really appreciate your help. 

    I will not be making my own cables but will be buying them. 

    Ok so I will avoid mixing 3/8 lugs on 5/16 busbar. 

    You convinced me, I will use a 30 amp breaker between charger and batteries. Will use this one: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07GWJB31C/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    I reread your notes on the ground wiring. I will get a ground busbar. Run all my ground there - battery bank, inverter, ATS, charger, and dc loads. From battery bank to ground busbar - 6 AWG. Then the others - same size wire to ground busbar. Then from ground busbar to earth rod - 6 awg. Correct?

    Few more questions if you don't mind. 
    1. My main panel has the neutral bar connected via wire to the panel itself as ground because of the whole (which I don't understand) genset float thing - my electrician friend did it for me. Since that panel will now be run via my inverter. Is that an issue that such connection exists? do I need to do anything about it? 
    2. I plan on running a 10/2 romex underground from a waterproof junction box near generator that will then connect to a plug that will go into my generator then the other end of that 10/2 romex will run to another junction box in my power closet. There it will split to feed the ATS which will then move it to my panel when genset is connected and also in that junction box will be an outlet that the iota will plug into. Do I then tie that 10/2 romex ground wire and outlet's ground wire to my earth ground rod? 
    3. I plan to have a vent inlet and outlet on my box to help control temp. On the outlet I will put a fan to blow it out. I am thinking to connect that fan directly to the usb port on the inverter that way when I leave the cabin and switch inverter off - it will switch off this fan since it is not needed to run while I am away.... Any thing about it: I was also planning to switch off inverter at night while charging the batteries since the genset will take over powering duties. Downside to that is the fan will be off while batteries are being charged. Is that a bad idea? Should I also leave inverter on at night so fan will work? In general at night in these NY catskills - it is rarely hot. For example when it was above 90 two weeks ago - at night it was around 70-75.... 
    4. I own a multi meter. I will post model. the least expensive Southwire one. Can I use that to check SOC of my batteries? Also is there anything else I can use that for with the batteries? check their health?  
    I ordered a bunch of parts and will soon start assembling everything and will show photos soon. 



  • Wheelman55
    Wheelman55 Registered Users Posts: 235 ✭✭✭
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    Mini...sounds like you are having some fun with your project!

    Two things:

    1). Custom cables. Contact Tony Candella/ceautoelectricsupply.com He will make cables to your spec.  Tony actually answers the phone, or will call you back. His products are top line. 

    Here is a link to his custom cable builder: https://ceautoelectricsupply.com/custom-cable-builder/

    I’ve used Tony for automotive and for solar.

    2). Underground wire run. If your underground wire run is going to be permant, consider running underground pipe instead of simply burying Romex. If you run pipe, code calls for plastic underground and metal above ground. 

    Best. 
    Off-Grid in Terlingua, TX
    5,000 watt array - 14 CS 370 watt modules. HZLA horizontal tracker. Schneider: XW6048NA+, Mini PDP, MPPT 80-600, SCP. 390ah LiFeP04 battery bank - 3 Discover AES 42-48-6650 48 volt 130ah LiFePO4 batteries
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
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    For battery charging, I would use a 1/0.80 or 1.25x NEC derating for a 30 Amp output battery charger--Because batteries can take 30 amps for hours if they are well discharged... FLA batteries start to taper down from full charger current to less current (bulk vs absorb charging) when the bank is >~80% State of Charge:
    • 30 amp continuous load * 1.25 derating = 37.5 Amps ~ 40 amp rated cables and breaker/fuses suggested
    For NEC rated breakers/fuses, most will not blow below 80% of rated current and will pop/open/blow when >~100% rated current (could take minutes, or could take hours). Between 80% and 100% of rated current--may or may not trip.

    I notice you are looking to automotive breakers... Go ahead and try them. If they fail, don't be surprised (I know nothing about these specific devices).

    Here are some examples of 40 amp breakers from our host NAWS:

    https://www.solar-electric.com/search/?q=40+amp+breaker

    6 AWG is a good size to run "everywhere" for grounding. You do not worry about "single path" ground connections. That is not an issue because only fault current flow (lightning, short circuit).

    We want "single point" grounding so that, for example a genset (or inverter) has AC neutral tied to safety ground, and you have AC neutral in the main panel tied to safety ground in the panel--You now have two parallel current paths. You have the White ground bonded neutral, and you have the green ground bond neutral. Each carrying a part of the current.

    This is not only not wanted (we do not want the green wire to be "part" of the normal current path), there is an issue with AC power. You have some current going with Hot and Neutral into knockout in the panel, and you have the balance of the current on the green wire going into a second knockout in the panel. With AC power, those separate conductors act like a transformer and can cause circulating current in the panel sheet metal--And with high current flow, can actually cause the panel sheet metal to overheat.

    1. Probably not, and is actually the standard method of ground bonding the neutral. HOWEVER, this should only be done with PSW/TSW AC inverters. With MSW (modified sine/square wave) AC inverters, the bonding of an AC output wire can short out the inverter. Also, you need to confirm that your AC inverter has floating AC outputs (no Neutral to Chassis bonding) and your genset has no AC Neutral to Ground bonding (previous paragraph). From what little I have seen, in North America, it appears that inverters+gensets at 3,000 Watts or smaller, have floating AC Neutrals. And I would guess that gensets >~3,000 Watts or so tend to come with AC Neutral bonded to generator chassis/ground connection.

    2. Wheelman's suggestion of burying plastic conduit is nice... If you every need to replace wiring (larger genset down the road, bringing AC inverter wiring out for an AC outlet/lighting/etc. remotely)--Having a pipe makes it easy without having to retrench (I am cheap, I used pretty large diameter ABS pipe for my DIY trenches--But Gray color rated conduit may not be expensive either).

    2a. Tie the ground wire to the genset chassis ground, and to your normal AC ground connection (in the J-Box for transfer switch, or in the main AC panel would be my first choice). If you have lightning (which you do not?), a ground rod next to the genset and at the outside of the foundation, tie ground wire there first, and then continue bring ground into the J-Box. If lightning, then surge suppressors at the "wall" of the residence to shunt lightning surge to ground before it gets into the building is recommended.

    3. Ventilation when hot and/or battery charging. Good idea. Heat kills batteries (for every 10C/18F over ~25C/75F, batteries "age" 2x faster or 1/2 the battery life--age faster when hot). Also, if you have a relatively air tight box, you want to vent hydrogen gas and electrolyte fumes when charging... FLA batteries normally vent when charging. AGM will vent if over charged and as they near failure). You could do things like a voltage controlled switch... I.e., turn on fan when battery voltage is >13.8 volts (example).

    4. You can use a DMM to estimate the battery state of charge and monitor the charging/discharging. But it is not accurate:

    http://www.scubaengineer.com/documents/lead_acid_battery_charging_graphs.pdf

    And, as always, there is "hardware" for that...

    For flooded cell lead acid batteries, a Hydrometer is the gold standard:

    https://www.solar-electric.com/search/?q=hydrometer

    And meter wise... You can get Voltage Only based meters:

    https://www.solar-electric.com/midnite-solar-mnbcms.html
    http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/products.html

    And shunt based meters (more accurate, but can still "drift"):

    https://www.solar-electric.com/residential/meters-monitoring/battery-monitoring.html?product_list_limit=all

    Trimetric, Xatrex, Victron are well known... Trimetric may be a bit "tricky" to program (like the VCR Clock--Confusing button presses).

    And there is a flood of Amazon/eBay "battery monitors"... You have to read closely to see if they are battery monitors (i.e., operate during charge and discharge) vs simply current/power meters (do not reflect battery state of charge):

    https://www.amazon.com/s?k=battery+monitors&ref=nb_sb_noss_1

    If you use a simple voltmeter--You can get a pretty good idea of how things are working (i.e., battery reaches 14.75 volts for several hours to fully recharge, resting voltage around 12.7 volts is full, around 12.4 volts is 1/2 charge resting, avoid taking bank below 11.5 volts under light to moderate loads (short surge current can drop to 10.5 volts).

    If months/years down the road, you see the battery bank behaving "differently", then you need to investigate. The expensive hardware is nice, but not needed. If you have multiple people using the system (spouse, friends, etc., a true battery monitor may be more helpful).

    -Bill


    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • minisolar
    minisolar Solar Expert Posts: 158 ✭✭
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    Thank you Bill. Wheelman - I will call the guy early next week once my wiring plan is finalized. 

    We want "single point" grounding so that, for example a genset (or inverter) has AC neutral tied to safety ground, and you have AC neutral in the main panel tied to safety ground in the panel--You now have two parallel current paths. You have the White ground bonded neutral, and you have the green ground bond neutral. Each carrying a part of the current.

    This is not only not wanted (we do not want the green wire to be "part" of the normal current path), there is an issue with AC power. You have some current going with Hot and Neutral into knockout in the panel, and you have the balance of the current on the green wire going into a second knockout in the panel. With AC power, those separate conductors act like a transformer and can cause circulating current in the panel sheet metal--And with high current flow, can actually cause the panel sheet metal to overheat.





    I am trying to understand this as I believe you are saying that the way I have it now it is not correct? 

    Again, Currently my genset plugs directly into my panel. I have the neutral bar in my panel wired directly with a short green wire to the panel itself. Then all my ground wires off my loads (outlets, lights, water pump, and so on) run to my panel, combine together, then they run outside to my ground rod that is in the earth.

    Once my system is installed my panel will be run by either my genest or the inverter. 

    Should I do something different? 

    I thought that I will take all the greens/grounds from my power system (inverter, battery bank, iota charger, ATS, dc loads, and so on) and put them on a ground bus bar - then run one wire to that earth rod I have now.

    So at that point I will have the neutral bar in my panel connected with green wire to the panel, all my indoor cabin loads that run to my panel - grounded to the outside rod, and all the new power system grounds also run to my rod. 

    No good? 

    I believe my generator indeed is floating? Prior to connecting the neutral bar via green wire to panel I had strange power showing up on my neutral lines.... Now it is all good. My inverter is PSW. I will try to find out if it is indeed floating as well.  This is the inverter I bought.. I dont' know where to see what you are referring too? https://www.aimscorp.net/1500-Watt-Pure-Sine-Inverter.html

    If you think there is a chance the inverter is NOT floating then I will call them up and ask. 

    After you comment about temp and vent - I decided that I will have a dc fan with air inlet and outlet on the box. I will switch it on when I get to the cabin and switch it off when I leave since no charging or usage will be done while I am away. Even inverter will be switched off when I leave. 

    Can I use this for the switch? https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07Y1GDRQG/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_1?smid=AJJYA8M5YMCKV&psc=1

    The fan will be high velocity dc like this:  https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00N1Y3R2K/ref=crt_ewc_title_dp_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A235LT0EDLFSAR

    This two will work together? 

    Also, can I use a 12/2 romex that I currently have in my cabin (it is regular romex so it is white and black and ground...) to support that dc fan, rocker, and two of these: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07QZZP2PT/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    I am not verse in wiring for 12v - can I wire all these items with that off that single 12/2 wire? 

    Final question for today haha.... 

    I want to have a bypass... In case I have an issue with any of the following: iota charger, ATS, inverter, or even battery bank.... I then want to be able to just plug my generator in via an extension cord like now. 

    So I can wire to my panel an inlet like I have now : https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B003A48CZ8/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1

    But then what do I use to make sure power isn't sent from generator back to ATS? A regular 20 amp switch since this is only AC power? 

    Another strange thing I came across.... From that waterproof box near generator that will run to the cabin ( I will indeed bury pvc - great idea!) I need to hard wire a male plug that will plug into my generator. But all 15amp plugs I see online state max watt of 1875watt.... but my generator is capable of 2000 watt.... that is odd since even 10 gauge extension cords say the same thing... 1875 watts max even though 10/2 at 50 ft in I think is supposed to support much more than 1875watt? . Will I be fine with a regular 15 amp plug? generator is rated at 13.3amp continuous I believe... 

  • Wheelman55
    Wheelman55 Registered Users Posts: 235 ✭✭✭
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    Mini...get a Nema 5-20 receptacle/plug. The 5 means 125 volts. The 20 means 20 amps. https://www.interpower.com/ic/designers/designing-for-export/guides-and-charts/nema-nomenclature-chart.pdf  This will give you plenty of watts. 

    Polarwire just started selling 10 gauge extension cords with 5-20 receptacles...as a splurge you could buy a 25 ft 10/3 extension cord and use only the male end.  Run that to a junction box, then run individual THNN wires from the JB through the pipe to the cabin...don’t run Romex or the extension cord through the pipe, use the JB to connect the extension cord to the THHN. 

    BTW...how long is your run from generator to cabin?

    On the pipe...run at least 1-1/4” pipe, 2” pipe would be even better. You can get long 90 degree sweeps for the 2” pipe...it’ll take a 36” deep hole to use the long sweeps;)  And as long as you are digging a trench, consider putting in a second, parallel run of pipe for just in case. 

    Remember to have fun!
    Off-Grid in Terlingua, TX
    5,000 watt array - 14 CS 370 watt modules. HZLA horizontal tracker. Schneider: XW6048NA+, Mini PDP, MPPT 80-600, SCP. 390ah LiFeP04 battery bank - 3 Discover AES 42-48-6650 48 volt 130ah LiFePO4 batteries
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
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    "Single Point" Grounding:

    Neutral================================ (all AC power goes through this wire)
                                   | "panel Neutral+Ground bond connection
    Greenwire============================== (only fault current through this wire)

    Wrong "Multi Point" Neutral+Ground bonding

    Neutral================================== some AC current (genset+panel parallel connections)
                            | genset/inverter ground     | Panel ground bond
    Greenwire================================ some AC current (genset+panel parallel connections)

    It is perfectly OK to have multiple ground rods tied to your 6 AWG "grounding network/cables". Here, multi point grounding is "a good thing". Usually recommended for lightning prone areas (when you have AC wiring going to multiple outbuildings, etc.).

    You can use an ohm meter (all power off) and measure between White wire and Chassis (generator or inverter chassis). Also, you can pop open the generator wiring (or wiring diagram) to see if bonded or not. AC inverters frequently have a green wire to neutral connection--If bonded.

    Generally, you would have Neutral+Ground bond in your main panel. And Genset/inverter/etc. with floating outputs (you "lift" the neutral/ground/chassis bonds.

    More or less, from what I have seen, 3 kWatts or less, generators and inverters have floating neutrals. >~3,500 Watts, they seem to default with ground+neutral bonding.

    Where things get really messy--Is with RV power. You can have shore power (bonded neutral+ground bonding by code) and other power sources like genset and/or inverter.

    When connected to shore power, you do not want neutral+ground bond in the RV.

    When running from genset/inverter, you want a single neutral+ground bond.

    Things get messy with things like shore power... If they have a GFI outlet at the shore power connection, and you have ground+neutral bonding in the RV, then this will usually trip the  GFI in the shore power box.

    You can get a simple/cheap outlet tester to see that you have power from Hot to Neutral, and Hot to GND (ground+neutral bonded):


    Regarding the power switch--It does not list the DC rating of the switch (like 12 volts @ 3 amps)... Ideally, you really want to have a DC rated switch--DC is harder to "switch" without arcing vs AC (AC current does not sustain arcs nearly as easily)... For a small DC fan at 12 volts--Probably no problem.

    For fans, you might want to look for a larger fan at a lower RPM. "High speed" fans can be fairly noisy. Your choice.

    12 AWG Romex is going to be perfectly OK for 12 volts to fan. As always, keep from sun, do not direct bury normal ROMEX.

    You can run one wire to multiple 12 volt loads... Just make sure you are under current rating (AC or DC, both are the same for wire rating), and voltage drop (suggest no more than 0.5 volt drop from 12 volt bus bars to loads).

    Yes, the "male" outlet (plug) is fine... You want to make sure that no 120 VAC is ever present on the blades if the genset is not plugged in. Normally that would be an AC transfer switch (Inverter source, or generator source connected to main AC line). Or you can use a relay type... No genset power, defaults to inverter. If genset power, then switches over to genset (no manual switching required):


    The 10 AWG cord is usually limited by the rating of the plugs (typical home outlet is 15 amps, or possibly 15/20 amp with the "sideways blade).

    To have 30 amps on the standard cord, you would have to change to a set of 30 amp rated connectors.

    15 amps sounds find for your present genset--You could always replace the connectors if damaged, or if you get a larger genset later.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • minisolar
    minisolar Solar Expert Posts: 158 ✭✭
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    Mini...get a Nema 5-20 receptacle/plug. The 5 means 125 volts. The 20 means 20 amps. https://www.interpower.com/ic/designers/designing-for-export/guides-and-charts/nema-nomenclature-chart.pdf  This will give you plenty of watts. 

    Polarwire just started selling 10 gauge extension cords with 5-20 receptacles...as a splurge you could buy a 25 ft 10/3 extension cord and use only the male end.  Run that to a junction box, then run individual THNN wires from the JB through the pipe to the cabin...don’t run Romex or the extension cord through the pipe, use the JB to connect the extension cord to the THHN. 

    BTW...how long is your run from generator to cabin?

    On the pipe...run at least 1-1/4” pipe, 2” pipe would be even better. You can get long 90 degree sweeps for the 2” pipe...it’ll take a 36” deep hole to use the long sweeps;)  And as long as you are digging a trench, consider putting in a second, parallel run of pipe for just in case. 

    Remember to have fun!
    Thank you Wheelman. I've seen that receptacle. It won't fit my generator. Mine is the old 2000eu which has standard 15 amp (5-15 I believe is the type) plugs. But... I just looked up more info on the generator and it is 2000 watt starting but 1600 watt continuous so I think I'm good. It is rated at 13.3amp continuous.

    Generator is about 35ft away and I was planning to bury a 10/2 direct bury romex. My terrain is very Rocky and I'm debating if to just run conduit straight on the ground instead of a tranch but we shall see.

    You don't think I should put that direct bury romex in a pipe between generator and cabin? 
  • minisolar
    minisolar Solar Expert Posts: 158 ✭✭
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    Thank you Bill for helping me with this.

    I think I understand... I need to leave that neutral bond to panel in cabin BUT run all those grounds from the panel out, connect to all the grounds from the power closet then from that point - run a  single wire to my rod. This way I have a single wire (single point?) to the rod? correct? 

    If so, then I need to clean up my panel. I think my father in law simple twisted together all my grounds in the panel then ran a single wire to the ground. I will get a ground busbar (with those isolation plastic on bottom so I can connect it to the panel right? I should make sure I do not have any connection between those ground and the panel itself?) connect them all and run from there to the rod for now and once I have the power closet set up I will disconnect that wire from rod and run it to the closet ground terminal and run a single wire back from that bus bar to the rod so I will have all my grounds - both from my panel and from my power closet/system mett at the groudn terminal then from there a single wire to the rod. 

    Also, all my negatives will go to my negative busbar which will then have a 6 awg connecting to the ground busbar. That is the right way to ground my battery bank and dc loads, right? can't this if there is a fault - send dc power to my ac loads? just curious.

    I am really surprised at how difficult it is to find a 12v dc rocker switch. Then how is everyone running their lights here off their batteries?  What switches are they using? Any chance you can give a link to one.

    The only one I found that seems right is this one? https://www.grainger.com/product/CARLING-TECHNOLOGIES-Rocker-Switch-10C582

    Another option for isolating/bypassing system is to hardwire a female plug between ATS and panel and connect that to the inlet... Then if I want to bypass/isolate power system I simply unplug it and plug my generator directly to that inlet. I considered this option but thought that having three (!!) "plugs"  is too many... I will have one plug for generator, then another between ats and inverter (I do not think there is an option to hardwire my inverter? it has 3 outlets on it...) then a third will be between ATS and panel... Which is the only one I can avoid if I want but then need to figure out a bypass as we said. 

    If you think this is fine to have that 1 extra plug between ATS and panel then this solves my bypass issue and makes it really good since it is a "no mistake" possible design... I will have to unplug ATS in order to plug generator instead of remembering to first isolate correctly... 

    A thought I had today.... haha. Can i die from those batteries? Is there a way for me to touch things wrong and give those amps go into me and kill me????? 
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    edited August 2020 #50
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    You can run multiple ground wires to one (or more) ground rods. I.e., from panel/mounting rack to ground rod, from main panel to ground rod, even from battery bank to ground rod. Multi point grounding is fine, and in cases of lighting, is actually a good thing. You want (for example) the ground(s) from your array frames (and wall mounted panel surge suppressors, if used) to go directly to the ground rod at the base of the wall (rod(s) outside the wall). You don't want to (for example) bring the grounds from the roof, into the building, then to a ground rod. You don't want to bring lightning into your residence (I know the lightning is not a concern for your location, as I recall).

    If you are going to install a ground bus bar in the main panel (vs current wire nutting), you do not need an insulated bus bar--A standard bolt to the sheet metal type will also take care of the bus bar "ground bonding" too.

    That point at which you tie Neutral to Ground bus is the "single point" of grounding we are looking for.
    Also, all my negatives will go to my negative busbar which will then have a 6 awg connecting to the ground busbar. That is the right way to ground my battery bank and dc loads, right? can't this if there is a fault - send dc power to my ac loads? just curious.
    With mixed DC and AC power system--Safety Grounding becomes a bit more "complicated".

    More or less, you want to avoid a fault current that should go to your battery bus directly, to not go through an AC ground wire.

    What the issue is that your 12 VDC bus input current is about 10x the AC output of your AC inverter. If you have 10 amps of AC rated inverter (around 1,500 Watts), and that would be about 100 Amps of 12 VDC. If, for example, you connected a 14 AWG green wire to your chassis ground of the AC inverter and to the AC ground bar... The current for an internal AC inverter ground fault will have to go through 14 AWG to the AC panel, then 14 (or whatever) to the ground rod (your common AC/DC ground point), and back to the battery bank. And you may have around a 120 Amp fuse/breaker on the 12 volt inverter connection. That means your 14 AWG cable must handle >120 amps of fault current to trip the DC inverter fuse/breaker.

    Instead, you connect your inverter chassis ground (6 AWG minimum, or even up to your AWG of your +/- DC cables) back to the battery bank (or ground rod--either is fine). That way, if there is an inverter internal ground fault, the heavy DC current flows through the 6+ AWG wiring back to the battery negative bus, and trips the OPD (over current protective device).

    For switches, you can always try and automotive or marine store. For 1 amp circuits and less (LED lighting, small fans, etc.)... Not usually anything to be very concerned about. 10 amps and above, there is significant energy that could overheat a switch (cause fire) if the failure is "bad enough".

    For arcing DC switch issues... 12 VDC is really at the minimum of the capability of an electrical circuit to even sustain an arc. 24 VDC and higher system voltages are really the issue for switch arcing.

    For shocks, 12 volts (at 8 amps, as I recall from UL years ago--I think) is considered "touch safe". 24 to 48 volts is questionable (trained personnel, behind locked doors/screwed shut panels). And >60 Volts is hazardous.

    I have worked on aircraft where I have gotten a mild shock from 24 volts (if I am sweating). Felt like a was getting poked by a sliver of metal or similar--Was not even sure it was a shock at first.

    The Graingers switch is fine. Carling makes very nice products in general. Note that there DC rating is 12 volts max... Probably to stay under the minimum arc voltage (and allow them the 20 amp rating).

    As long as you are working with 12 VDC, an similarly rated 120 VAC system (i.e., XX Amps) is probably fine for your needs. Unless I had a Grainger near by--I probably would not bother driving very far out of may way for that switch.

    And, the other battery bank warning. Lead Acid (AGM) and Li Ion batteries can output a whole bunch of current into a dead short (100's of Amperes, or even a LOT more for large banks). As always, remove jewlery and rings, and use electrical tape wrapped around tools/wrench handles, etc. when working on the batteries and their wiring. Avoid (for example) welding your wrench to the battery buses.

    If you are really careful, wear a face shield when working on lead acid batteries. There is always the possibility of hydrogen gas build up around batteries and in the cells. And a small spark of setting it off. Battery tops/bus wiring needs to be protected (box, cover, locked room) from children/unauthorized access. You don't want your tools/parts on bench top falling into the battery wiring.

    I am a little confused with the ATS (automatic transfer switch?) vs an "extra plug" inline. Generally you hardwire ATS switches. No extra plugs. However, also very safe, a short cord and plug to your AC main panel input, and two AC outlets. One to the inverter and one to the genset and you choose which source for your AC paenl--A "manual" transfer switch.

    If the extra plug is, for example, at the cabin wall going to the genset--IT is not going to hurt anything. Yes, the extra plug is always an extra point of failure (blades overheat, get water in/on the metal and corroded, etc.).

    If you are burying the wiring to the genset--You can always hardwire your buried cable to the ATS/AC J-Box.

    If you had lightning as an issue--some folks will unplug the genset wiring from the wall and move it back 10 feet to avoid bringing a lightning strike inside... But if you have lightning issues, then surge suppressors on solar DC panel wiring, and genset wiring--Put SPDs at wall where they enter the living space. And install an SPD on the main panel.

    https://www.solar-electric.com/residential/circuit-protection/surge-protection.html

    Not cheap, but repairing/replacing an AC inverter or genset is not cheap either.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Wheelman55
    Wheelman55 Registered Users Posts: 235 ✭✭✭
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    minisolar said:
    Mini...get a Nema 5-20 receptacle/plug. The 5 means 125 volts. The 20 means 20 amps. https://www.interpower.com/ic/designers/designing-for-export/guides-and-charts/nema-nomenclature-chart.pdf  This will give you plenty of watts. 

    Polarwire just started selling 10 gauge extension cords with 5-20 receptacles...as a splurge you could buy a 25 ft 10/3 extension cord and use only the male end.  Run that to a junction box, then run individual THNN wires from the JB through the pipe to the cabin...don’t run Romex or the extension cord through the pipe, use the JB to connect the extension cord to the THHN. 

    BTW...how long is your run from generator to cabin?

    On the pipe...run at least 1-1/4” pipe, 2” pipe would be even better. You can get long 90 degree sweeps for the 2” pipe...it’ll take a 36” deep hole to use the long sweeps;)  And as long as you are digging a trench, consider putting in a second, parallel run of pipe for just in case. 

    Remember to have fun!
    Thank you Wheelman. I've seen that receptacle. It won't fit my generator. Mine is the old 2000eu which has standard 15 amp (5-15 I believe is the type) plugs. But... I just looked up more info on the generator and it is 2000 watt starting but 1600 watt continuous so I think I'm good. It is rated at 13.3amp continuous.

    Generator is about 35ft away and I was planning to bury a 10/2 direct bury romex. My terrain is very Rocky and I'm debating if to just run conduit straight on the ground instead of a tranch but we shall see.

    You don't think I should put that direct bury romex in a pipe between generator and cabin? 
    Mini...sorry, I didn’t notice the “new” style plug.  I’ve got two EU2000i’s...great units! I note that the polarwire 12/3 Extension cords use the “old” style plugs that are Nema 5-15.

    Romex inside of pipe is not allowed by code.  The story goes that the extra insulation holds in heat, as does the pipe, resulting in a potential fire event.  

    If this wire run is going to be permanent, I would dig a trench, unless it’s solid bedrock.

    FYI...before I knew better, i buried two runs of 12/2 Romex from house to garage.  Sure wish that someone would have told me to bury pipe :)
    Off-Grid in Terlingua, TX
    5,000 watt array - 14 CS 370 watt modules. HZLA horizontal tracker. Schneider: XW6048NA+, Mini PDP, MPPT 80-600, SCP. 390ah LiFeP04 battery bank - 3 Discover AES 42-48-6650 48 volt 130ah LiFePO4 batteries
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
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    Down the road, there are "companion" type eu2x00i gensets (and the 3k+ models) from Honda that have 30 amp twist lock 120 VAC plugs...

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • minisolar
    minisolar Solar Expert Posts: 158 ✭✭
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    Wheelman 

    I usually try to go code and above.. But... It will be an incredible pain in the butt to dig that 36" deep tranch haha... We are talking deep dark woods of upstate ny. You hit a large rock probably every 10inchs. So 35-40ft. It will be a real pain and a few weekends work if I'm lucky

    I bought a direct bury romex which can go straight in the ground... 

    So either I just dig 10" down (no chance of cars or any other equipment going over it fyi) and put that wire down or...

    I run inside aluminum conduit on the ground with standard wire. So no digging

    What do you think? 

    I love my Honda. Bought it used and beat up from a contractor who kept it in his bed truck.. Will roll around over there. Paid like $400.. This was 8 years ago. It is still going strong. My extended run now let's it run non stop for about 72 hours. No problem at all. 

    Now I'll read Bill's post. Can't wait to have this running and make you guys proud haha. 
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
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    Don't ask so many "its complicated/it depends" questions in one post.  :p  

    Always ask for clarifications when needed. Try not to get to deep unless it is needed.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Wheelman55
    Wheelman55 Registered Users Posts: 235 ✭✭✭
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    minisolar said:
    Wheelman 

    I usually try to go code and above.. But... It will be an incredible pain in the butt to dig that 36" deep tranch haha... We are talking deep dark woods of upstate ny. You hit a large rock probably every 10inchs. So 35-40ft. It will be a real pain and a few weekends work if I'm lucky

    I bought a direct bury romex which can go straight in the ground... 

    So either I just dig 10" down (no chance of cars or any other equipment going over it fyi) and put that wire down or...

    I run inside aluminum conduit on the ground with standard wire. So no digging

    What do you think? 

    I love my Honda. Bought it used and beat up from a contractor who kept it in his bed truck.. Will roll around over there. Paid like $400.. This was 8 years ago. It is still going strong. My extended run now let's it run non stop for about 72 hours. No problem at all. 

    Now I'll read Bill's post. Can't wait to have this running and make you guys proud haha. 
    I understand rocks. At my off grid place I went 18” down for 135’ from array to electronics shed...took five hours to go the first 30’ using a small backhoe. 

    In the above example I used one run of 1-1/4” pipe and pulled five 10 gauge wires 150’ through two 90’s and two gentle bends. The final 15’ was difficult. 

    From the shed to the house I went 150’, digging down 4’, burying two runs of 2” pipe. I’ll be pulling 2/0 through one of the pipe runs and comm cable through the other. 

    If you can go 10” try for 18” and use 1-1/4” with the normal/short bends. You’ll have two 90’s and only 35 feet to pull. 

    Otherwise rent a small backhoe...

    Make sure to put yellow caution tape a few inches above your buried lines. 
    Off-Grid in Terlingua, TX
    5,000 watt array - 14 CS 370 watt modules. HZLA horizontal tracker. Schneider: XW6048NA+, Mini PDP, MPPT 80-600, SCP. 390ah LiFeP04 battery bank - 3 Discover AES 42-48-6650 48 volt 130ah LiFePO4 batteries
  • minisolar
    minisolar Solar Expert Posts: 158 ✭✭
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    wow... been two months already and still haven't got to finally build this. Have 85 % of components. 

    I am playing catch up with me and the wife's priorities. Had to finish kitchen first. And now since it is getting cold... I have to finish indoor shower since outdoor shower won't cut it. Hoping to finally build this masterpiece afterwards haha. 

    Btw... I asked about my honda generator here before. when I turned it on last time after 5 years of sitting empty - I installed a work time meter on it. I didn't realized that since we run it constant with extended run - it will rack so many hours. When I finally checked - I had 297 hours on it... wow. I changed oil and will make sure not to get to so many hours again. I will also change spark plug. 

    Once I build this power system I will be able to drastically reduce my generator workload. But for now... it is working long hours. Putting in synthetic oil every 100 hours from now on, new spark every 300, and I am adding seafoam to fuel to keep it smooth. Gush I love this honda beast. I just love well made tools. 
  • Wheelman55
    Wheelman55 Registered Users Posts: 235 ✭✭✭
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    Life is a journey with detours isn’t it?

    Love my two Honda’s...built the entire house with them. 

    Do you have the newer EU2200i or the older EU2000i?

    if you have the older version make sure to have a spare pull cord. I had the cords break on both of mine within a week :(. Replacing them isn’t difficult, however you do need to remove all of the outer covers. Good instructions on YouTube. The second one only took me 45 minutes...the first one took a bit longer:)  Replace the cord as soon as you notice any fraying. 

    I used 3mm Kevlar cord...you might be able to fit 4mm in though.  https://www.cobrapullcords.com/collections/cobra-cords/products/go-kart-cobra-cord

    The newer EU2200 has addressed the fraying cord issue, so if you have that version, the cord will last much longer. Might still want a spare cord. 

    Also there is a fuel filter deep inside the EU2000i. I’ve not replaced that yet, but I do have a spare. 

    Here’s the part that I’ve got...make sure to confirm on your own though: https://www.amazon.com/Honda-16952-ZA8-800-Filter-Fuel/dp/B00AJTUDBS

    Enjoy the fall colors!
    Off-Grid in Terlingua, TX
    5,000 watt array - 14 CS 370 watt modules. HZLA horizontal tracker. Schneider: XW6048NA+, Mini PDP, MPPT 80-600, SCP. 390ah LiFeP04 battery bank - 3 Discover AES 42-48-6650 48 volt 130ah LiFePO4 batteries
  • minisolar
    minisolar Solar Expert Posts: 158 ✭✭
    edited October 2020 #58
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    It sure is full of detours. 

    Thank you for the tip on the cord. I will take a photo of the cord next time I am there so you can tell me if it is starting to fry... 

    I really wish I can at least install the toilet, which needs its fan to run 24/7 (12v draws 2.5w/0.21a), before installing the full power system. 

    From my calculations (please correct me) I need at least a 105ah battery (12v that is) if I want the fan to run for about 3 weeks to be safe (more likely 2 weeks but we do skip going every so often. that is without taking into account not wanting to drain more than 50%. 

    I think I can either buy two cheap gc batteris 6v 215ah for around $180 use it until my power system is installed which can be 6 months up to a year then just throw away batteries... or I can buy 2 of the 6v agm ones I was going to buy for my system for $320, connect them, have a 210ah bank and in six months to a year when I build the system just buy 4 more... not sure if that is an issue of mixing new with 1yr old batteries? 

    When I go to the cabin - I will just charge the batteries so they will be fully charged when I leave and run that fan. 

    Thoughts? 
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    edited October 2020 #59
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    • 2.5 Watts * 24 hours = 60 Watt*Hours per day
    • 60 Watt*hours per day * 10 days = 600 Watt*hours per 10 day
    • 600 WH / 12 volts = 50 AH
    • 50 AH / 1/4 (25% discharge) = 200 AH @ "nice size" battery bank (your 2x 6 volt GC batteries seem to be a good fit)
    • 50 AH / 1/2 (50% discharge) = 100 AH @ 12 volts "going to use for 1-2 years" battery bank
    Charging... You have not said what size charger you will be running, and you have the option of charging them  with a genset or taking one set home charging with AC power and a second set for the next 10 days...

    Say 10% rate of charge--The charging time would be something like:
    • 25% discharge / 10% rate of charge = 2.5 hours to charge (200 AH * 10% rate of charge = 20 amp charger)
    • Plus absorb time of (at least) 2 hours
    • 2.5 hours + 2 hours = 4.5 hours of genset runtime
    • OR
    • 50% discharge / 10% rate of charge = 5 hours (note this is 10% of 100 AH = 10 amp charger)
    • Plus absorb time of (somewhere around) 6 hours
    • 5 hours + 6 hours = 11 hours of charging
    A 2 amp @ 120 VAC charger (20 amp) vs a 1 am @ 120 VAC charger (10 amp) is not a big difference for the genset--But the absorb time becomes a significant player in the genset runtime... Deeply cycled FLA batteries need more time on charge--And longer genset runtime.

    So--If genset charging, how long do you plan on being there to run the genset when needed? I think you are looking at 8-10 hours overnight? Deeply cycling your battery bank may take more genset runtime than you where planning on initially--But 

    And a little solar may be a good thing (at least during the sunny months). Assume random upstate NY location Albany.. Fixed array facing south:
    http://www.solarelectricityhandbook.com/solar-irradiance.html

    Albany
    Average Solar Insolation figures

    Measured in kWh/m2/day onto a solar panel set at a 47° angle from vertical:
    (For best year-round performance)

    JanFebMarAprMayJun
    3.09
     
    3.89
     
    4.40
     
    4.46
     
    4.67
     
    4.92
     
    JulAugSepOctNovDec
    5.02
     
    4.91
     
    4.56
     
    3.88
     
    2.83
     
    2.73
     
    Lets say that you want to just keep up with the 60 WH per day draw of the fan (longer battery life--But should use the genset when available to fully charge, absorb, and EQ when needed):
    • 60 WH per day / 2.73 hours of sun (December long term average) = 22 Watt solar panel "break even" December
    And if you want a "full size" 10% rate of charge panel for 2x Golf Cart batteries (use bank for other light loads--LED lighting, cell phone charging, radio/tablet or laptop computer, etc.):
    • 200 AH * 14.5 volts charging * 1/0.77 panel+controller deraings * 0.10 rate of charge = 377 Watt panel nominal
    And, other minor issues--Such as snow (near vertical in winter?), and what happens when you run a fan 24x365 days a year... I wonder if pulling sub freezing air in winter may freeze the waste?

    By the way, why the fan? Some systems use a fan (even a heater) to drive off "liquid waste"... Or is this more to keep odor down? Friend with old cabin and septic pit inside cabin--The heat of from the pit and a pipe seem to do a pretty good job of ventilation.... (I am no septic/composting expert here).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • minisolar
    minisolar Solar Expert Posts: 158 ✭✭
    edited October 2020 #60
    Options
    Bill as usual fantastic info. Thank you for taking the time. 

    Charging should be easy since I will use the IOTA 30amp and since this toilet fan comes with an ac adapter - I can plug to regular outlet when I get to the cabin and strictly charge batteries while there so even if a 210ah bank - you are talking about 48 hours potential charge time while I there and genset runs 24/7 so most likely just charge until they are full then disconnect and move fan to 12v power when I leave. 

    At most I hope 14 days without me there so that will mean a lower state of charge for a 100ah bank. 

    Bill - if I go the AGM route and buy two and use for let's say 6 month then 6 months from now - buy 4 new AGM and combine to make my 6 battery bank - is that an issue that they are mixed new with not so new? 

    This is a ingenious toilet (IMHO). In stead of trying to compost in there which is not possible and requires dumping - this toilet sucks the air above it which essentially dries your waste completely. The bucket is lined with composting bag so you can then either bury it once bucket is full, burn it, or throw to the garbage... no smell at all. 

    Technically, if I could have it run the fan for just a week after I leave then shut off... that will be perfect since it will be dry by then and won't need the fan. I need a 12v countdown timer that can run fro a week... haha. no idea if such a thing exist,. 

    *edit: such thing exist? look here - 

    https://www.amazon.com/Timer-Relay-Digital-Delay-Module/dp/B06X3YSXY9/

    For this works then I will only need 7 days to dry waste. 

    Let me know if this thing will work
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    minisolar said:.....
    For this works then I will only need 7 days to dry waste. .........
    If the humidity and temperature is right .
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,