small system design

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  • littleharbor2
    littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 2,044 ✭✭✭✭✭


    The EP Ever/EP Solar line of controllers puts out this info which might help if you have one of their controllers, or a rebranded version.


     

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

  • mountainman
    mountainman Registered Users Posts: 439 ✭✭
    I use the epever 3210. This from a page in my manual?
    2kw array 6 345 q cells  make sky blue 60 cc
     6 230ah GC @36 volts 
    18 amp accusense charger. 3650 champion 
  • palausystem
    palausystem Solar Expert Posts: 122 ✭✭✭
    Thank you littleharbor and mountainman,
    Funny you should mention this brand: I ordered the Epever last week before I knew what I was doing.

    I ordered the Epever Tracer 4210AN.
    Rated charge current 40A.  Rated charge power 520w. Max PV array power = 780w. Max PV open circuit voltage = 100v

    The Amazon manufacturer "description" for this model said that 520w was the max array size, but this spec sheet suggests otherwise.
    Does the rated charge power mean that's the max energy my array will deliver to the battery? Or will it be less because of derating, etc.

    I see that the V from my panels will be roughly 35v.  Connected in the way you suggested I'm unclear what the Amp output will be. The rated Imp from my 2 "24v" panels is 4.9 each.  The new "12v" panels have an Imp of 10.3 each. Doesn't that mean about 20A max inputting at the controller?

    Off-grid 48v, 3 kw PV, Sunny Island 5048U, SunnyBoy, US Battery RE L16XC  6v, 800ah, Genset: Kohler 8.5 RES propane.
  • littleharbor2
    littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 2,044 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Your controller will only output a max of 40 amps regardless how overpaneled you are. Many people will overpanel due to poor solar exposure,  caused by haze, marine layer etc. Some people will have East/West facing arrays.

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

  • palausystem
    palausystem Solar Expert Posts: 122 ✭✭✭
    Now considering 2 new 350 panels which are only a small bit more expense than two new 170w panels. So, here's the specs on them:

    72 polycrystalline cells
    Peak efficiency: 17.3%
    Nominal power: 345W
    Tolerance: +0-5W
    Nominal voltage: 37.93V
    Open circuit voltage: 46.58V
    Short circuit current: 9.59A
    Maximum system voltage: 1500V
    Connectors: MC4 compatible
    Manufacturer: Q Cells / Hanwha
    Model number: Q.PLUS L G4.2 345

    Still need to understand Amps better... this spec sheet gives "short circuit current" as 9.5A.  Does the MPPT bump up the amperage?


    Off-grid 48v, 3 kw PV, Sunny Island 5048U, SunnyBoy, US Battery RE L16XC  6v, 800ah, Genset: Kohler 8.5 RES propane.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    The short circuit current for a solar panel is the maximum current (under full sun) the panel can output. This is for deciding the wiring and breaker ratings for the solar array...

    More or less, I ignore the Isc rating, and go to the data sheet and look for the series fuse rating... The old rule of thumb of when you have 3 or more panels in series, you fuse/breaker each series string so that if one panel gets shorted (or the wiring gets shorted), the other panels do not feed "too much" current into the short and start a fire.

    Remembering that Power = Voltage * Current, in the case of a short circuit, the panel voltage is zero volts... And zero volts * any current = zero Watts--So Isc does not figure into the power numbers during operation.

    An MPPT charge controller internally is a "buck mode" down converting switching power supply. It is sort of like5 the DC equivalent of an AC transformer. It takes high voltage/low current of the array, and efficiently down converts to low voltage/high current to charge the battery bank (and run your DC loads)... Math wise (ignoring losses)... Say you have a 330 Watt panel with Vmp~30 volts:
    • 330 Watts Pmp / 30 volts Vmp = 11 Amps Imp
    • MPPT input is 330 Watts or 30 volts at 11 Amps
    • MPPT output down converts to
    • 330 Watts / 14.5 volts battery charging = 22.8 Amps battery charging at xx.x volts
    The computer inside the MPPT charge controller figures out the "optimum" solar panel operating points (Vmp and Imp for the specific temperature, sun, and battery conditions). So you don't have to tell the controller Vmp for your specific solar array--It figures it out and runs that way.

    Once the battery charging current begins to drop (and/or your DC loads drop), the controller transitions from "bulk charging" (trying to get as many Watts as it can from the solar array) to Absorb and eventually Float charging. The controller simply takes less current from the solar array to supply less current to the battery bus.

    Think of the MPPT (maximum power point tracking) controller the equivalent of an automatic transmission for a car, vs driving the car around with with no transmission and just a clutch (PWM controller -- Pulse Width Modulation). With a PWM controller, it is just an "on/off" switch. Works very efficiently with the "right Vmp solar panel", but is not efficient with higher voltage Vmp panels/arrays.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • palausystem
    palausystem Solar Expert Posts: 122 ✭✭✭
    So then for my 345w panel x 2:
    690w/14.5=49A. Controller will output its 40A max....
    Off-grid 48v, 3 kw PV, Sunny Island 5048U, SunnyBoy, US Battery RE L16XC  6v, 800ah, Genset: Kohler 8.5 RES propane.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    edited April 2020 #39
    Yes, assume all is working correctly, the controller will "clip" the output to 40 Amps.

    And the "realistic" peak current (occurs rarely, and not for very long typically). For "cost effective" derating, using 77% derate:
    • 2 x 345 Watt panels * 0.77 panel+controller derating * 1/14.5 volts nominal charging = 36.6 Amps... fixed "usual best case" peak current during charging
    I/we always try to be on the "conservative side" a bit... In this example, the "lost harvest" due to clipping with this array is not very much (a few hours a year? Only when the battery is less than ~80% discharged, and light DC loads, cool/clear sky, etc.).

    Just keep the controller in a well ventilated (cool if possible) area--No hot closet, poor circulation, with southern sun in through a window.

    Temperature (every 10C/18F increase in room temperature is a ~1/2 reduction in life for electronics). Also, even thermal cycling from cold to hot every day, is not great either. See "HALT Testing":

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highly_accelerated_life_test
    Environmental stresses are applied in a HALT procedure,[1] eventually reaching a level significantly beyond that expected during use. The stresses used in HALT are typically hot and cold temperatures, temperature cycles, random vibration, power margining, and power cycling. The product under test is in operation during HALT and is continuously monitored for failures. As stress-induced failures occur, the cause should be determined, and if possible, the problem should be repaired so that the test can continue to find other weaknesses.
    -Bill


    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • garynappi
    garynappi Registered Users Posts: 105 ✭✭
    edited April 2020 #40
    Estragon said:
    FWIW, I run most of my LED lighting directly on DC.  They normally use a 120vac power supply in a regular household installation, which outputs ~13vdc.  Running off DC directly eliminates inverter and transformer costs/losses and avoids the MSW issue (albeit at a cost of heavier wiring for higher current at low voltage).  If lights are close to batteries, this might be worth considering.

    The lights do need to be able to take the range of battery operating voltages (~10.5-16v for 12v nominal).  You'd need to confirm for your particular lights.
    Agreed.

    The OP didn't mention the square footage of the greenhouse, or what type of lighting (Or I missed the SF and LED or HID) they plan on using. 

    Maybe a look into some fruit / veg enthusiast sites like (http://tropicalfruitforum.com) will help design the lighting. These folks are growing tropicals where the "Maker" never planned on them growing :-:smile:

    Estragon, I don't have a greenhouse but am very interested in your DC lighting scheme, can you elucidate on it's particulars? Are you using marine hardware or converted 110 volt stuff?

    I converted my 110v powered LED patio lighting using series resistors to bring the string to ~2.2 volts and connect it to my CC load.  



  • palausystem
    palausystem Solar Expert Posts: 122 ✭✭✭
    Will be running 250w led's off this system, plus another 125w off existing home system, total of 1500w/day. A few weeks in April and a few in Oct.  I'm helping someone else so don't know the details of the greenhouse.
    Off-grid 48v, 3 kw PV, Sunny Island 5048U, SunnyBoy, US Battery RE L16XC  6v, 800ah, Genset: Kohler 8.5 RES propane.
  • garynappi
    garynappi Registered Users Posts: 105 ✭✭
    edited April 2020 #42
    Will be running 250w led's off this system, plus another 125w off existing home system, total of 1500w/day. A few weeks in April and a few in Oct.  I'm helping someone else so don't know the details of the greenhouse.
    Then those 250 watt are watt "equivalent" yes? The actual current / wattage is very important to know. A 250 watt "equivalent" LED bulb is likely less than 30 watts of actual power and radically affects your calculations. The 125w are AC filament type bulbs? 

    PS. A pic of your fixture and quantity of bulbs needed will tell a lot and the color temperature is good to know... 3k or 6k, you may need to switch them out if the plants flower. . 

     


  • palausystem
    palausystem Solar Expert Posts: 122 ✭✭✭
    LED 250 actual watts.
    Off-grid 48v, 3 kw PV, Sunny Island 5048U, SunnyBoy, US Battery RE L16XC  6v, 800ah, Genset: Kohler 8.5 RES propane.
  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @garynappi - I have a bunch of these as ceiling/pot lighting:
    https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/hardware/lighting/75326-indoor-4-watt-white-led-downlight

    Also some strip lighting and a couple of 1w night lights.  They would all normally use 120vac->12vdc power supply(s) in a typical house installation.  I run them, plus other 12vdc loads off a12vdc breaker panel.  The panel is wired back to batteries with some spare heavy (6awg IIRC) wire I had around.  Other dc loads include a couple of reefers, a small pump, and a fan.

    Depending on distance, running 250w (~20a @ 12v per light) loads direct from dc may be impractical.  At 4w each, mine don't add up to much and run fine with 14awg wire runs.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • palausystem
    palausystem Solar Expert Posts: 122 ✭✭✭
    So I have the design for the system. 12v, 400Ah batt, 2x 345w panels. It goes like this:
    1000Wh/day x 1.18 x .083 x 2 x 2 = 392Ah battery.
    392 x 14.5 x 1.20 x .07 = 513W array.  The charge controller is Epever Tracer 4210AN (specs are above). For 12 volt system it will accept  up to 520w from the array (max array:780W). That works out to a 7% rate of charge for 3 weeks in late spring and 3 weeks in late summer.  The rest of the time the system will have less use.  The inverter is  Kinverch 1000w pure sine.
    The controller will accept 1040W with a 24v system. I would like to upgrade in the not too distant future by adding a 24v battery and one more panel to get a 1035W array:
    1400Wh/day x 1.18 x .0416 x 2 x 2 = 275Ah battery
    275 x 27.6 (is this the right number for 24v charging?) x 1.3 x .10 = 987W array
      A question about this is, would I need to keep this future upgrade in mind as I purchase various disconnect switches and the like? Or will that stuff all have to get upgraded as well?  I still haven't learned about hooking it all up and would welcome a pointer towards info in that area and/or I will do a search in this forum.
    Thanks all  

    Off-grid 48v, 3 kw PV, Sunny Island 5048U, SunnyBoy, US Battery RE L16XC  6v, 800ah, Genset: Kohler 8.5 RES propane.
  • palausystem
    palausystem Solar Expert Posts: 122 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2020 #46
    Cost of these items:
    Panels $175 each x 2
    Controller $129
    Inverter $129
    Batteries are leftovers from previous system (Rolls/Surette 6v 400 Ah x 2.  $300ea?)
    balance of system ??
    Off-grid 48v, 3 kw PV, Sunny Island 5048U, SunnyBoy, US Battery RE L16XC  6v, 800ah, Genset: Kohler 8.5 RES propane.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    For a DIY system, poster 2manytoyz has a lot of pictures (scroll 1/2 way down page):

    http://2manytoyz.com/

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • palausystem
    palausystem Solar Expert Posts: 122 ✭✭✭
    I just have one string so it sounds like I don't need a combiner box? Just a 20A fuse (2 x 9.10A Imp panels in series) and a DC disconnect?
    Off-grid 48v, 3 kw PV, Sunny Island 5048U, SunnyBoy, US Battery RE L16XC  6v, 800ah, Genset: Kohler 8.5 RES propane.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    edited April 2020 #49
    If you have 1 series string of panels (and don't plan on adding more parallel strings later), no over current protective device is required from the array to the charge controller.

    HOWEVER, many folks like using a properly rated switch (or even properly rated breaker) near the charge controller so they can cycle the solar array power off and do work without worrying about a "hot" PV circuit as they work on the wiring in the area.

    And higher voltage DC wiring with decent current is nothing to sneeze at... 100 VDC @ 15 amps can be "more exciting" than 100 VAC @ 15 amps (DC current tends to sustain arcs much better than AC current).

    A nice Youtube example:
    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • palausystem
    palausystem Solar Expert Posts: 122 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2020 #50
     Looking at disconnect switches, there's a few designed for batteries, I guess a "single pole" switch (?) that has one terminal in and one out...could it be used on the positive wire from the panels?  It says rated for 48v battery, 275A. It's $14 as opposed to a $67 one that looks more "appropriate", 2 wires in, 2 wires out, UL ratings, etc. 
    Off-grid 48v, 3 kw PV, Sunny Island 5048U, SunnyBoy, US Battery RE L16XC  6v, 800ah, Genset: Kohler 8.5 RES propane.
  • palausystem
    palausystem Solar Expert Posts: 122 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2020 #51
    From the 12V 400Ah battery to the inverter how do I rate that fuse/breaker? The spec on the 1000W inverter says "internal fuse: 40A X 3/250V"
    Off-grid 48v, 3 kw PV, Sunny Island 5048U, SunnyBoy, US Battery RE L16XC  6v, 800ah, Genset: Kohler 8.5 RES propane.
  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Three 40A fuses in parallel will equal 120A , 1000W divided by 12V  would be 83.3A, the current draw is dependent on voltage, inversely proportional to be exact, so as the voltage drops the current will increase,  therefore at 11V the current would be 91A. Hopefully the voltage would normally be kept at 12 or above so a value of 100A would work, this would  prevent internal fuse failure that would occur if the external fuse were greater in value, than that of the internal. The internal fuses are often soldered onto the circuit board making replacement a little more involved

    The purpose of the fuse, or overcurrent protection (OCP ) is to protect the conductors in the circuit, or in the case of the inverters internal fuses the internal circuitry of the inverter. The battery to inverter conductors need to be sized appropriately  to not only reduce voltage drop, but also have a current carrying capacity greater than the rating of the OCP, which can always be less but never more than the conductor rating. 

    The voltage rating of the fuse is the maximum allowable voltage so one of a greater value will allow lower voltages. When a fuse is rated for AC current the maximum voltage would  be half that value when used for DC, however it's best to use DC rated equipment.  

    Circuit breakers are handy in that they can be reset along with providing a means of disconnect, some are polarity marked, if so, the positive marked terminal would go the the side with the highest energy potential, in solar applications this, in most cases, is the battery. When more than one circuit breaker is used in parallel to achieve  higher current protection, it's good practice to link them together with a tie bar to allow switching of all as one.

    Never use circuit breakers that are only AC rated in a DC circuit, they won't offer the protection needed and in worst case scenarios can self ignite.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • palausystem
    palausystem Solar Expert Posts: 122 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2020 #53
    Want to clarify hooking up the inverter:
    The second one uses less wiring of course. (sketch of busbar connections not accurate but you get the picture)
    But I take it is not ideal...?  I did look at the Smartgauge website.  There's a lot of good info there.  It seems like with the busbar setup you are still pulling from one end of the battery through to the other.  But what do I know, not much. 
    Off-grid 48v, 3 kw PV, Sunny Island 5048U, SunnyBoy, US Battery RE L16XC  6v, 800ah, Genset: Kohler 8.5 RES propane.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    You want to "bus bar" to have very low resistance (and relatively short) connections to the battery bank. Batteries wired as the Smartgauge site to the bus bar. And connect your branch circuit wiring, as needed, to the bus bar and each + lead the leaves the bus bar has a fuse/breaker to protect against short circuits, and the battery negative tied to ground rod/vehicle chassis ground/whatever so that the battery bus is not "floating" and you can get away with breakers in the "hot" leads only, none required for returns leads (more discussion if you wish on grounding).

    What you really do not want are long/"skinny" wires from the battery to the bus bar. AC inverters are "electrically noisy"... And if you have a long resistive/inductive wire from from the battey to the bus bar, that electrical noise can affect the operation of the charge controller (some MPPT type charge controllers have been known to charge the battery bank "less effectively" when subjected to electrical noise on the DC bus).

    Being close to the battery bank when all "common connections are made", the battery bank tends to "filter out" much of the electrical noise.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • palausystem
    palausystem Solar Expert Posts: 122 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2020 #55
    OK, sounds like a few more feet of wire is worth the trouble. I'll make the connections at the battery terminals.
    I would like to talk about grounding.  In another post (Wiring and fuse help) you talk about the ground wires from the panel frames to a grounding rod.  What else should I be thinking about? I'm in the SF bay area near Mt. Diablo so lightning is not much of a concern. 
    Off-grid 48v, 3 kw PV, Sunny Island 5048U, SunnyBoy, US Battery RE L16XC  6v, 800ah, Genset: Kohler 8.5 RES propane.
  • palausystem
    palausystem Solar Expert Posts: 122 ✭✭✭
    Is the 40A fuse between battery and CC too low? Should it be more like 50?
    Off-grid 48v, 3 kw PV, Sunny Island 5048U, SunnyBoy, US Battery RE L16XC  6v, 800ah, Genset: Kohler 8.5 RES propane.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    Cable from Panel Frames to ground rod--Really for lightning control. My own array (installed 15 years ago, GT system), the installer just ran the array ground to the AC grounding screw in the inverter--No extra ground rod). We have had lightning over the years, but rare, and not real close (hills, tall trees, power poles, etc.). Your choice on that (and whatever code says).

    You do want to run a 6 AWG ground wire from the "array grounding" to the house grounding so that if there is a short circuit somewhere--It will pop a breaker (6 AWG provides current path back to AC main panel and Neutral/Ground bonding point).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • palausystem
    palausystem Solar Expert Posts: 122 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2020 #58
    Regarding my post #56 showing wiring, the 2 panels will be in series, not the  parallel 20A it says on the sketch.
    This system will just be running a few lights and small draw items, off of some extension cords.  There is a GFCI outlet near this setup, a hundred thirty feet from the main A/C panel down by the house. Could I tie a ground wire onto that somehow? Hmm. Probably not with 6AWG. Do I need to breaker protect this system some other way, the house ground is too far away.
    Off-grid 48v, 3 kw PV, Sunny Island 5048U, SunnyBoy, US Battery RE L16XC  6v, 800ah, Genset: Kohler 8.5 RES propane.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    If your AC branch circuit power is "local" to the solar power system is fed through a GFI... You are fine. The GFI will trip if there is any H/N to ground/locally earth grounded frame. You do not need a ground wire (of some sort) from solar frame back to the home ground.

    If, for example, you had some yard lights mounted on the solar array that are powered by straight 120/240 VAC power. You would want EITHER a ground wire from the main panel (same AWG or heavier vs the L/N wiring), And/Or GFI protection (either GFI breaker in Main panel, GFI outlet to yard, or GFI locally to local ground.

    The idea that "somehow" the circuit will be turned off is there is a short (solid green wire ground prevents the local "metal" from becoming "hot" wrt ground) and for any outside (near pool, near water, near sink inside) that will trip if there is a Hot connection through a "person" to earth ground (reduce the chances of electrocution).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • palausystem
    palausystem Solar Expert Posts: 122 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2020 #60
    I think I follow you, but let me see.  If I have a GFI circuit/outlet from the house main panel near the proposed array, I can run a wire (same AWG as circuit wire) from said GFI circuit to the "array grounding", which is what, connect panel frames to each other with a wire then from that wire to the GFI?
    What about the battery "bus"? As per my diagram I'm installing fuses on the positive battery leads.  Do I need a ground wire from the negative battery terminal to... a grounding rod?
    And the rest of the components will be fine? 
     
    Off-grid 48v, 3 kw PV, Sunny Island 5048U, SunnyBoy, US Battery RE L16XC  6v, 800ah, Genset: Kohler 8.5 RES propane.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    I try for "functional explanations around grounding".

    Running an outlet "near" the array--Then the only source that can "electrify the array" with power from the AC mains is that branch circuit. So running a ground wire from the nearby outlet to the array would certainly keep the "solar mounting frame" "safe" if you (for example) were using an electric drill or hanging Christmas tree lights on the frame. If there was no way to get AC house power to the frame under any normal cases (100 feet away, no plans to run any power to the mounting frame, then grounding to the house is not really needed. A ground rod at the base of the framework, is more than good enough (for static discharge and lightning).

    For the Battery Bank... Again two part test... One is that any metal in the area (electrical panels AC or DC, plumbing like sinks, AC inverter chassis, etc.) be tied to the same "single ground point" as the Battery (negative typically) point (as well as the AC grounding from the house). So as that any reasonably conceivable electrical/insulation failure would avoid "electrifying" some random large piece of metal (and would trip a fuse/breaker instead).

    The other part is ground rod/cold water pipe. But if the battery is already grounding to the "house ground", the house usually has cold water pipe (and newer code) ground rod. So a separate ground rod is not needed...

    HOWEVER, lightning is a Radio frequency phonomyn. Lightning does not like right angle turns, does not like to "follow simple (6 AWG) cable for much more than 10-20 feet if there is something else (like earth) nearby--It will jump away. Also, if you have lightning ground coming down from an array in the "middle of the roof, and down through the center of the house, the lightning will naturally try to go to the "walls" of the house (all the current flowing in one direction down a wire, creates a magnetic field, that "repels" the electrical current from flowing down the middle of the conductor towards the edges (i.e., copper pipe is used for large AC electrical conductors), and if you have multiple grounds from roof to ground rods--The ground conductors are to be distributied equally around the outside of the house (like at the four corners).

    If your AC mains/DC power system is at the wall of a house, a ground rod right next to the exterior wall works great. If your power system is in the "middle" of a building, that is not great--the lightning will try to reach away from the center to other wiring/plumbing/etc. at the "edges of the building".

    I think a ground rod to battery negative bus, short, at least 6 AWG, close to outside wall, with ground rod driven next to outside watt/foundation is not a bad idea in lightning prone country (and tie DC ground bus to rest of house AC grounding too for short circuit tripping of breakers/fuses).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset