Inverter grounding

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MT1912
MT1912 Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭✭
Hello, I'm trying to clarify a lot of info I'm getting from different sources. I apologize if this was asked and answered here before.
My off grid solar system consists of 6 100W panels and 2000W pure sine Samlex inverter. I'm charging 2 Sun Extender batteries, total of 220 amp hours.
I'm not sure how to ground my inverter, or do I even have to. Wires from solar panels are running into my home office which is on the second floor of the house, I'm using the power to run my office computers and monitors. This is complete separate system, nothing is connected to any home wiring, just a simple off grid setup --> Solar panels--> Charge controller--> Batteries--> Inverter. I have fuses between the charge controller and batteries (mainly for disconnect) and between batteries and inverter. Inverter does have a GFCI outlet.
Right now my inverter is not grounded at all and al is working good, but...
What are the ways to ground it?  I've seen a video where a guy connected a chassis of the inverter to the ground pin of the receptacle, just using a ground wire of a 3 prong plug, of course isolating other two wires. IS this a proper way to do it?

Thanks for any advice.

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  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    AFAIK, this type of inverter (PSW, with outlets) likely has neutral bonded to chassis ground internally.  Connecting the chassis to outlet ground pin seems unwise to me (duplicate bond).

    Is it hardwired to branch circuits running the computers etc., or are they run off the gfci outlet?
     
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • MT1912
    MT1912 Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭✭
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    All the equipment is run from a strip connected to one of the GFCI outlets of the inverter. I have some chargers run directly on 12V so they are connected directly to batteries, but that's just very small current.
  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Personally, I'd just leave it floating then. 

    In an RV or similar application I could see a case for connecting the inverter chassis to the RV frame (eg so a line wire chafed on frame would fault). 

    You could connect the inverter chassis ground to a house ground, but I don't think that really gets you much in terms of safety.  Seems to me to be much like a portable generator application, and if there's no connection to the house system it's simpler to keep it completely separate (IMHO).


    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • MT1912
    MT1912 Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭✭
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    Estragon said:
    Personally, I'd just leave it floating then. 

    In an RV or similar application I could see a case for connecting the inverter chassis to the RV frame (eg so a line wire chafed on frame would fault). 

    You could connect the inverter chassis ground to a house ground, but I don't think that really gets you much in terms of safety.  Seems to me to be much like a portable generator application, and if there's no connection to the house system it's simpler to keep it completely separate (IMHO).



    That's what I was thinking, but I wanted to hear more opinions from other more experienced people with electrical background. Thank you for your input.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,443 admin
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    In theory, you should attach the chassis ground screw/stud of the AC inverter to the DC Return (usually Negative terminal) the battery negative bus (either the same diameter of your +/- cables, or at least #6 copper cable). If there is, for example, a short between the positive DC bus (internally in the inverter), and the chassis of the inverter, this will pop the positive DC fuse/breaker from the positive battery bus.

    And run a ground wire (for your 2000 watt inverter, ~17 amps max output) 12 AWG cable from the "common" battery return ground bond (negative bus typically) to the green wire grounding of your AC system (at the home's ground rod, cold water pipe, etc.). This is to make sure that any AC hot to ground short (appliances, AC wiring, etc.) shorts will safely short the AC inverter and shut it down rather than shock somebody.

    Note, smaller PSW/TSW AC inverters typically "float" The AC neutral/white wire. Larger inverters (and generators) typically Neutral/white wire to Ground (chassis) bond (or generator chassis bond).

    In either case (floating AC Neutral or Ground Bonded Neutral) are safe when using GFI outputs. Note that any Neutral/Ground bonding  is "before" the GFI breaker/outlet inlet. If you Ground Bond the Neutral on the output of a GFI breaker or outlet, it can/will pop the GFI protection (especially if you have 2 or more Neutral/Ground bonds).

    And if you have a MSW type AC inverter, you cannot do an AC Neutral/Ground bond on the AC output (and the ground bond the DC negative bus)--This will "short out" the AC inverter internal transistors.

    In general, Ground Bonding to a Ground Rod/cold water pipe is for Lightning protection (and static discharge, reduce chances of corrosion, etc.).

    Ground bonding the AC neutral, AC chassis/green wire grounds (and DC negative ground to inverter chassis ground/epanel chassis grounds, etc.) are to ensure that any "Hot" to chassis short circuits will pop protective breakers/fuses (or electronic protection on AC inverter outputs). You don't want, for example, a sink to be "hot" with DC or AC power.

    There are other reasons for "ground bonding" (such as easier starting for flourescent lamps, flame detection on automatic spark natural gas/propane igniters)--But those rarely apply to solar power system these days (LED lamps, etc.).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • MT1912
    MT1912 Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭✭
    edited January 2020 #7
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    BB. said:
    In theory, you should attach the chassis ground screw/stud of the AC inverter to the DC Return (usually Negative terminal) the battery negative bus (either the same diameter of your +/- cables, or at least #6 copper cable). If there is, for example, a short between the positive DC bus (internally in the inverter), and the chassis of the inverter, this will pop the positive DC fuse/breaker from the positive battery bus.

    And run a ground wire (for your 2000 watt inverter, ~17 amps max output) 12 AWG cable from the "common" battery return ground bond (negative bus typically) to the green wire grounding of your AC system (at the home's ground rod, cold water pipe, etc.). This is to make sure that any AC hot to ground short (appliances, AC wiring, etc.) shorts will safely short the AC inverter and shut it down rather than shock somebody.
    So are you saying I should connect my inverter chassis to the negative terminal of my battery bank? It's just two 12V batteries connected in parallel with cables. And then from the same point on inverter chassis to run a wire to my AC ground of the house? From the location where the bank is, the only way to get to my house AC ground is to connect a wire to one of the wall outlets ground. I don't have access to any pips  etc. it's a room on the second floor away from pipes etc...  Would that be safe? Or, safer than no ground at all? Given this is completely separate system not connected to anything in the house.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,443 admin
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    As I understand, a grounded three prong socket (with neutral/ground bond) is "per code" as safe as a ground bonded neutral, no green wire to ground plug, behind a GFI Breaker or outlet (in old homes, without a ground wire to the outlet, a GFI outlet or breaker is an acceptable upgrade vs having to run a greenwire to all outlets.

    Your small inverter probably does not have a Neutral/Ground (to inverter chassis ground) bond internally. It is, probably, a floating AC output. That plus a GFI outlet on the inverter is "safe".

    With floating AC outputs, wiring and safety issues get a bit "complicated". Floating AC outputs (such as behind an isolation transformer) are "touch safe" (if you touch one wire, you cannot get a shock because you do not complete a circuit). However, if there is a short from one AC line to metal/ground/etc., it is no longer floating and can become a shock hazard (isolated supplies are used in manufacturing to test equipment being built, but before final Hipot testing for safety). For these systems, there is a required (monthly?) test that the outputs are still floating (no internal shorts) because a "shorted floating output" does not automatically turn of the AC power (no tripped breaker, etc.). The GFI does still protect against you touching a "hot wire" and ground by shutting off the power (obviously, if you touch the Black and White 120 VAC wiring, you will get a shock, GFI devices do not protect against these "faults").

    But from your point of view, as long as the wiring is done correctly (right size and type of wire, proper terminations, wall outlet mounted in box, no exposed "hot" components, etc.)., your AC output protected GFI outlet(s) is(are) going to be fine. And you should not have any problems with appliances plugged into the outlet.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • MT1912
    MT1912 Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭✭
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    Thank you Bill, you threw a lot of info on me and I think I'm at the beginning where I was before, still not sure. I don't have an electrical background so half of what you said is above my head. 
    Front outlets are GFCI, but it does have a grounding point on chassis at the back. If I boil down my understanding of the first paragraph you wrote above, you are saying it is safe to ground it to one of the wall three prong outlet ground point, but you don't think it's necessary because of the GFCI outlet on the inverter, am I understanding it correctly?
    So If I really wanted to ground it, I could run that wire from chassis to the wall outlet ground. I'm not saying I will, but it wouldn't hurt anything, correct?
    I appreciate your time you take to answer, and sorry if you feel I need to be spoon fed the answers.

  • MT1912
    MT1912 Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭✭
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    As you can see from the picture, this inverter can be hard wired as well, right next to a GFCI outlet is an inlet for a wire coming in, so IF I connected that wire and plug my appliances this way, then there is more need for that ground, am I on the right track?
  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
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    FWIW, I had an earlier model Samlex 2000W inverter with hard wire and GFI outlets, it was neutral ground bonded internally so providing a ground to the supplied ground lug would be all that is required. Contact Samlex to confirm this, rather than relying on second hand information, their support is actually very good, from personal experience, 
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,443 admin
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    How about asking the question backwards... What kinds of loads do you want to run? Will the Solar Outlet be near any sinks/water/etc.?

    More or less... Assuming just a home office and "normal office loads", I would run a 6 AWG cable from the inverter chassis ground to the battery negative bus (negative ground bus). And I would run a 12 AWG or heavier wire from the battery negative bus to a ground connection connection at your main panel, house ground rod, cold water pipe, etc. And call it a day.

    Run 3 prong sockets (Hot, Neutral, safety Ground) as normal in the office, don't bother connecting the safety ground. This is assuming your 120 VAC solar power is from (after) the GFI outlets (GFI protected).

    More words/explanations, does not change the above suggested wiring. Read at own risk...

    The 6 AWG wire from chassis to battery negative will "short out" any +12 volt to inverter chassis shorts (wiring, transistor cases, etc.).

    The 6 AWG chassis to battery negative to 12 AWG or heavier cable to the "house ground" will protect against any normal 120 VAC short circuits and other house branch circuits/etc. shorted to your solar 120 VAC (i.e., a computer connected to solar, and a  120 VAC utility power laser printer networked through USB or something--And there is a 120 VAC short). Either the solar GFI or a 120 VAC circuit breaker (house or solar) will trip (and keep things safe).

    You could run a 14 AWG cable from House ground (somewhere) to 120 VAC solar outlet ground green screw--But not really needed (leave outlet ground socket floating).

    And you should keep your Black (Hot) and White (Neutral) wire from the inverter to the office outlets properly connected (polarity--The ground bonded neutral/white wire from inverter to socket white screw). Reversing Hot and Neutral at the outlet is not considered "kosher" under NEC). It is assumed that (at a minimum) power switches are in the "hot leg", the threaded portions of light bulbs are "neutral", etc. (for examples).

    The reasons for having "code" and following "code" is that 1) everyone "knows" the wiring rules and 2) much of the reason for code is to catch the "weird" failures (short circuits 'anywhere', water intrusion, rodents eating wiring, etc.) and to reduce the chances of fire/shock.

    And, if you live in a lightning prone area, connecting the grounds between the House and Solar power systems will help keep "all 120 VAC circuits" at the "same voltage" (don't get an arc from solar AC to utility AC).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset