Why isn't the charge controller using the panel to feed loads when the battery is charged?

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unexpected
unexpected Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭✭
So another Epever Q.  I've been watching the monitoring program and with a small load, I'm seeing negative current in the battery and no power being produced. Panels are at 21V and sitting unused.

Even with a 3 amp load and ample solar, the controller drains the battery first. After a while it kicks in and starts feeding power to both, because I assume the battery voltage dropped. What am I missing here?

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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,442 admin
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    What is the battery voltage using a voltmeter? Like 12.42 volts or whatever.

    Every controller manufacturer is different in how they choose to charge the battery bank... Some start charging to 14.4 volts (if AGM/sealed) and then drop after 2 hours to 13.6 volts. Others will wait until the battery voltage drops to (for example) 12.5 volts, then "rebulk" or start a full charging cycle.

    With solar charge controllers, a large enough solar array, and property programmed, you would expect that even if the controller does not want to recharge the battery bank (take to 14.4 volts), it should bring the bank voltage to ~13.6 volts "float voltage" (to keep the battery charged and the loads supplied--But not "actually recharge the battery bank"--Recharging is a "cycle" and if the battery is already near full, there is not a good reason to start a full charging cycle and wear out the battery bank sooner).

    With solar charge controllers... You connect to the battery bank first and let the controller "boot". Then after a few 10's of seconds, connect/turn on the solar array.

    For example, you connect the array first, the controller sets 24 volts (because of leakage current from array to Vbatt output) and could overcharge a 12 volt battery bank (not your problem at this point).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • unexpected
    unexpected Registered Users, Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 4
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    Its all set up voltage wise. Just the battery is charged and the controller is in float and I see current coming out of the battery and the solar producing 0. Some people have mentioned using diversion in this situation, but the epever has no settings for it and I would have to build something custom in between the battery and the charge controller to switch off the battery and fake the voltage
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,442 admin
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    If the battery is floating (say 13.6 volts), the controller "sees" 13.6 volts)--Then all is "OK".

    If you are drawing current out of the battery, eventually the battery will try to fall to 13.5 volts, and the charge controller will start letting current through to bring it back to 13.6 volts.

    It seems a little odd to have the battery being discharged but maintaining 13.6 volts. That is why it is nice to have a separate voltmeter so you can verify the charge controller and wiring connections.

    Details matter here. You have a pretty complicated "black box" (the charge controller) that is making decisions and remembering history to decide what to do next...

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • littleharbor2
    littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 2,046 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2019 #5
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    There's a very good chance you are getting power from your PV but the controller isn't explicitly telling you so. If in the event your load is larger than your array can supply then of course your batteries will be contributing to power the load. If your batteries are still in absorb your array will be powering the absorb cycle and powering your load with a minimal amount of current into the battery showing. As bill mentioned, If you had a separate monitoring device you could see this. My Tri-metric will show ,for example, a positive charging current of say 21 amps although my Midnite Solar controller shows 40 amps incoming. The difference in current is what is going to my loads at that time. All charge controllers are different in their level of info available too so having the separate monitoring device really helps to know what's going on.

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

  • unexpected
    unexpected Registered Users, Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 4
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    Maybe its because the battery is above float voltage since I set lithium to float low?





  • NANOcontrol
    NANOcontrol Registered Users Posts: 261 ✭✭✭
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    If you sit around an watch a charge controller it will drive you nuts! They seem to be designed for charge where the batteries mostly sit around not being used. The other times they are waiting trying to figure out what to do next. I have a device that monitors panel voltage and diverts energy to water heating. It looks for rise in panel voltage over the power point to divert.  After a night of use, I'm heating water at 7:30am.  I couldn't believe it the first time I saw it.
  • unexpected
    unexpected Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭✭
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    I'm still watching it like a hawk because I'm programming it. :)
  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2019 #9
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    I'm still watching it like a hawk because I'm programming it. :)

    Good to know you're paying attention, with lithium batteries  it's definitely required.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • unexpected
    unexpected Registered Users, Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 4
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    So I found out how this thing works a bit.

    You have to set the boost voltage to slightly below maximum charge and then float below that.

    eg, I want to charge to 3.92V which is 70something percent

    So I set the the maximum charge to 15.70 (3.925) and then the boost voltage to 15.68. For the float I set 15.58v. In this configuration it never quite reaches "max" charge and then splits the load with the battery when in float mode after about a .2v dip.

    When the load drops off, it tries to "put back" charge for a few minutes and then drops the current back down to 0.

    Unfortunately this has some downsides. Mainly it could be micro cycling the battery but also, there is no way to carry small loads .5A or so just off the solar panels.

    The float doesn't really trickle charge, eg push current in at a higher voltage unless you set it that way. It just puts back a bit of what it thinks you took out. For them advertising it as a lithium CC, they don't seem to get lithium at all.


  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
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    Most charge controllers are designed for lead acid, setting up the parameters in custom settings is really an adaptation, not really a dedicated lithium charging profile. Each controller will have its individual idiosyncrasies which need to be figured out and as such what works with one won't nesesarally work with another.

    As the controller output and load terminals connected in parallel to the battery, once the target voltage is reached charging should terminate within a short duration then transition to float. Being that Lithium batteries have a low self discharge the voltage will remain above the float setting until a load is applied, once the voltage drops and reaches slightly below the float value the controller will begin to pass current to maintain the setpoint. Depending on how often the controller makes its sweeps there may be a slight delay where the battery supports the load, once charging again to maintain the float voltage current will pass to the loads because everything is in parallel.

    Minor fluctuations in voltage around the float value shouldn't be considered micro cycles but rather the controllers limited ability to precisely clamp the voltage 100%, what you don't want is large swings where the voltage drops significantly before charging resumes.
    More sophisticated controllers will have a recharge setpoint which prompts a fresh cycle once the voltage drops below a certain threshold, usually set at a significantly lower voltage than float. This feature is particularly useful with lead acid which don't tolerate partial states of charge, with lithium that is generally not a major concern, especially in a ballanced system where the array is capable of supporting loads as well as maintain float.

    Regarding the 0.5A load not being drawn from the array, how are you determining that? Often controllers won't detect such small values even though they are passing current, try with a larger load. Having a DC clamp on ammeter is almost an essential tool for solar systems, allowing dynamic readings to be made. One additional point the PV voltage input is at a higher value than the battery with MPPT so the 0.5A load at battery voltage, will be less on the PV input, for example if the input voltage is 32V and battery 16V, the 0.5A battery side load would be 0.25A on the PV side as current is inversely proportional to voltage. 

    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • unexpected
    unexpected Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭✭
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    It tells me in the monitor even loads up to .1A... what you're talking about in terms of lower voltage is called boost restart on this charger. I set that way below float, like .4 or .5v

    I ended up getting a full sine inverter and wiring it to the battery through a 40A relay (knock on wood about that rating) and I'm using the load terminal as a LVD since all available LVD under $$$$$ suck. The full sine had trouble starting from the load terminals' PWM when charging up its caps. Got real tired of turning it on 4 times.. Unfortunately now I have no idea what the thing is drawing. Was going to splice my watt meter in between but its leads are only 14GA.

    All I can do right now is compare cell voltage to current going to the battery. At least it turns on solar real fast. Now will be the time to see if this can really maintain a charge without going over in case I want to start charging to higher levels.