Charge controller and battery sizing question

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BillyBob
BillyBob Registered Users Posts: 2
Learning about setting up a solar system is like drinking from a fire hose. So much information with such a steep learning curve. My son and I have built an off grid cabin and now we are ready to install power for led lights, fans, radio, TV and apartment type fridge. We looked at kits that have everything pre-wired, but want to learn how to do it ourselves to be more self sufficient. 
We have bought 12 panels
SPECS:
  • Maximum Power Output (Pmax) 280W
  • Open Circuit Voltage (Voc) 44.9V
  • Short Circuit Current (Isc) 8.28A
  • Voltage at Maximum Power (Vmp) 36V
  • Current at Maximum Power (Imp) 7.77A
  • Conversion Efficiency 15.46%
We are mounting them facing due south and under 100' from MPPT charge controller, batteries and inverter. All panels will be tied into a combiner box with breakers for each string.

I was advised the seller to make 4 strings of 3 panels wired in series which would have a Voc 135 volts. Also was advised to use one Outback FM80 charge controller for 48 volt or 2 FM80 controllers for 24 volts. Is this correct?

We are thinking of making it 24 volt. Or should it be 48 volt? 

 We and have found the Battle Born 12 volt 100 amp hour Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries. Are these batteries a good choice? If 24 volt would 4 batteries work starting out? How many batteries for a 3000 or 3500 watt inverter?

Our main goal is to not get locked into a system that can not be added on and expanded easily and 24 or 48 ties your future. 

Austin
Average Solar Insolation figures

Measured in kWh/m2/day onto a solar panel set at a 60° angle:
(For best year-round performance)

JanFebMarAprMayJun
3.82
 
4.18
 
4.86
 
5.27
 
5.19
 
5.65
 
JulAugSepOctNovDec
5.90
 
5.72
 
5.31
 
4.87
 
4.07
 
3.67
The more I read and study the more confused I get. I'm ready to purchase the charge controller and want to make sure everything above is correct.


Comments

  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Yes, running 24v nominal does need 2x the charge controller capacity vs 48v.  Additionally, running lower DC voltages requires heavier wire etc, as current is higher at lower voltage for a given load (wattage).

    You didn't mention a pump for water.  If gravity from cistern, gasoline pump or whatever,  either voltage would likely be ok.  If an inverter powered pump is needed or may be added, I'd be inclined towards 48v.

    4 x 100ah @12v batteries gives you 4800 watt-hours of storage.  Obviously power consumption is highly variable based on personal preferences and choices.  That said, a comfortable (electric fridge, no air conditioning or electric heating) but efficient off-grid cabin might use ~3500ish watt-hours per day, so 4800wh storage basically allows for one gloomy day, then starting a generator on the second.  Personally, I'd prefer to be able to go a couple of days and crank the genny on the third.

    If your climate is such that sunny days are also the hot ones, I'd even consider air conditioning.  If the cabin is reasonably well insulated, running the AC in the afternoon once batteries are charged can work well to cool things down.


    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
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    Starting with 48V will definitely be an advantage when it comes time to expand, additionally it keeps costs down by allowing extra capacity of the charge controller and lower ballance of system costs.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • billybob9
    billybob9 Registered Users Posts: 141 ✭✭
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    Just wanted to say I'm glad we're not fishing in different boats right now as we have a Bill, Billy, Billybob, Billybob9 and boB all at the same time. LOL
  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Personally, I think BB and boB are in an entirely different boat.  I'm just happy to be within shouting distance.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
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    Just being anywhere near/around the water is great for me!

    The "Raw AH" rating of battery bank does set some limits on surge current capability (sort of maximum inverter and solar array support).

    However Lithium, and to a degree AGM, are very good at surge even in smaller AH capacity (C/2 to even C*2 surge). And for some (like some of the LiFePO4), you have to look at their specifications--While the max/surge current of the basic chemistry is capable, the actual terminal/internal construction sets limitations, and so does (in Li Ion) does the BMS.

    For Deep Cycle Flooded cell Lead Acid, they have less surge capability (C/2.5 max, and C/8 is a good max for maximum continuous draw).

    For most people, it is your average energy usage (maybe 5 hours per night, for 2 nights of no-sun recharging/bad weather, 50% maximum discharge) drives the actual battery sizing--And usually, that AH capacity is "enough" for max inverter/surge for most installations.

    And any "high surge/power loads", frequently have their "solar friendly" equivalent (such as Grundfos well pumps, "slow pumping" to tank, then local pressure pump, energy star appliances, etc.).

    With an LiFePO4 type battery bank, their charging cycle is much faster and more "solar friendly" (high charging current until full--vs the 2-6 hour absorb cycle of FLA). And you can use the ~20-90% cycling capacity (~70%+ of capacity) vs the 40-50% of capacity of FLA batteries (for longer battery life). However, when you go to 20% SoC for Li Ion, that is it (genset or power off). Whereas, you can, on occasion, take a FLA deep cycle battery down to 20% SoC when needed (you do need to recharge quickly, with a genset, if needed back towards 80% SoC to not "kill" the FLA battery with sulfation).

    In the end, knowing your loads, and picking "solar friendly" electrical devices are going to be a big help. To answer questions like what panels, what controller(s), etc. falls out after the "paper sizing" (back of envelope) design. You use those numbers when you select the actual hardware for phase 2 detailed paper design.

    Just to say 100' from array to charge controller will work well with a "standard" 140-150 VDC max input charge controller, vs a 200 or 600 volt maximum input solar charge controller... Don't know until both phase 1 and 2 paper designs are done.

    Other issues, your loads... If you have 12 VDC set of loads (like HAM radio)--Then 48 VDC is less interesting... If your AC loads are "smaller", then finding a good fit (smaller 48 VDC inverter with the "features you want" could be an issue--Although, there seem to be a lot more smaller 48 volt AC inverters in the last few years available).

    Sorry, no real answers. But hopefully it helps you taking steps forward.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • billybob9
    billybob9 Registered Users Posts: 141 ✭✭
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    I just hate it when I have to explain to a person that thinks the word Forum means the Inquisition to them, but here goes. When your on the water fishing and using the VHF it's hard to communicate with other fisherman if everyone has the same or similar name.  Got it...…..
  • BillyBob
    BillyBob Registered Users Posts: 2
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    Thanks everyone for all your comments. If we make the system 48 volt is it correct that we need 8 batteries to get same storage capacity as four with a 24 volt system? 

    I would like (still trying to convince son) to have some 12 and 24 volt outlets. With 12 volt we could us simple car radio, 12 volt fans, etc. and we found a 24 volt solar fridge https://www.homedepot.com/p/Unique-16-6-cu-ft-470-L-Solar-DC-Top-Freezer-Refrigerator-Danfoss-Secop-Compressor-in-White-UGP-470L-W/308557996

    I know they sell them, but do the step down converters work? Where we put the fridge I would like to have both AC and 24 volt outlets. We have AC fridge already, but in future could get a solar fridge like above.  

     
  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Using 12v batteries, a single string of 4 in series gives you a 48v nominal bank (vs 2 strings of 2 for 24v).  The overall watt-hour storage is the same either way.

    Not sure about that particular fridge, but AFAIK, most Danfoss based can run on 12v.  I have 2 in the cabin (for heavily insulated site built boxes), and 1 for a sailbox icebox, all running on 12v.

    Step down works, but you want to include a way of preventing a failed unit from exposing low voltage devices to higher system voltage.  Also, you want to keep low voltage circuit runs fairly short to minimize voltage drop.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • Tecnodave
    Tecnodave Registered Users Posts: 437 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2019 #10
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    Danfoss and Colku compressor referigerators can operate on 10-15 volts or 20-30 volts. They auto sense the voltage. I have two Grape Solar GS-5 referigerators operating on 24 volt system. My power used is 42 watts running and about 70 at startup. Total power use is .25 kW/h per day per unit.  The Grape Solar units are not as well insulated and use a bit more power than the Sundanzer units. The Chinese Colku  compressor is a knockoff clone of the Danish Danfoss , nearly identical.  I have about 4 years expereince using these. The manufacturer of mine,  (Grape Solar) recommended that they be disconnected during equilation.  Grape Solar has exited the business of DC referigerator , they were made in Asia and use the Colku compressor 
    2 Classic 150, 2 Kid, 5 arrays 7.5 kw total  2ea.  2S6P Sharp NE-170/NE-165, 1ea. 12P Sanyo HIT 200,  2ea. 4/6P Sanyo HIT 200, MagnaSine MS4024AE, Exeltech XP-1100,  2 Banks L-16 battery, Rolls-Surette S-530 and Interstate Traction, Shunts with whizbangJr and Bogart Tri-Metric, iCharger i208B  dc-dc buck/boost converter with BMS for small form lithium 8S 16650 or LiFePO4,
  • Tecnodave
    Tecnodave Registered Users Posts: 437 ✭✭✭✭
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    On the subject of step down converters, there are board level units that are not so good, when they fail they expose the low voltage side to full incoming power not regulated. The Samlex SDC-30 is a very stable design that is 20-32 volts in and 13.6 volts regulated output, about $119 , These units are fully encased and look like a small inverter.  Samlex makes a full line of these DC-DC converters for 12-24-48 volts in and 12-24-48 volts output, well regulated with fail safe built in. They do not short input to output as the cheep Chinese units do. There are less expensive ones out there, I use mine for electronics that I would rather not burn up.

    SamlexAmerica.com,  inverters, power supplies, converters, etc.
    Ive never had an issue with their products, I use SDC-30 buck converters and IDC-30 fully isolated converters, very quiet on the EMI-RFI for radio use, etc, 
    2 Classic 150, 2 Kid, 5 arrays 7.5 kw total  2ea.  2S6P Sharp NE-170/NE-165, 1ea. 12P Sanyo HIT 200,  2ea. 4/6P Sanyo HIT 200, MagnaSine MS4024AE, Exeltech XP-1100,  2 Banks L-16 battery, Rolls-Surette S-530 and Interstate Traction, Shunts with whizbangJr and Bogart Tri-Metric, iCharger i208B  dc-dc buck/boost converter with BMS for small form lithium 8S 16650 or LiFePO4,
  • littleharbor2
    littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 2,046 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    BillyBob said:
    Thanks everyone for all your comments. If we make the system 48 volt is it correct that we need 8 batteries to get same storage capacity as four with a 24 volt system? 

    I would like (still trying to convince son) to have some 12 and 24 volt outlets. With 12 volt we could us simple car radio, 12 volt fans, etc. and we found a 24 volt solar fridge https://www.homedepot.com/p/Unique-16-6-cu-ft-470-L-Solar-DC-Top-Freezer-Refrigerator-Danfoss-Secop-Compressor-in-White-UGP-470L-W/308557996

    I know they sell them, but do the step down converters work? Where we put the fridge I would like to have both AC and 24 volt outlets. We have AC fridge already, but in future could get a solar fridge like above.  

     
    There's no reason you cant have a small 12 volt system for the small, intermittent 12 volt loads. I have 2, 12 volt systems at the Baja house to run VHF, stereo and water pumps in the main house and garage. The large 24 volt system is strictly inverted to AC power.

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    BillyBob said:
    Thanks everyone for all your comments. If we make the system 48 volt is it correct that we need 8 batteries to get same storage capacity as four with a 24 volt system?

    Just to clarify, no.  Using identical batteries, 8 batteries would be double the capacity of 4. 

    Capacity in watt-hours is amp-hours times voltage, so (eg) 450ah@24v is the same as 225ah@48v.  Both give 10800 watt-hours of total capacity.


    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter