240v output from inverter/charger fed by 120v generator??

nobadays
nobadays Registered Users Posts: 43 ✭✭
in General Solar Power Topics #1
You folks here and the forum host have helped me with my off-grid solar set up. It has been a journey and a steep learning curve! Installing this on a mountain cabin in Colorado - with a permit - has led to even more complications as they are under NEC 2017. 

My contact at NAZWS says I should run my Schneider 4048 inverter/charger with the 240vac output which will allow for the total 3800 watt rated output. If I opt for 120vac output the wattage will drop to 2700... which will still more than meet my needs.

My 3500 watt generator only has 120vac output. My understanding is the Schneider inverter/charger allows for load sharing, meaning if I know I am going to run a heavy power using tool/heater/etc. I can fire up the generator which will now feed power to the inverter/charger instead of directly to my 100amp load center, and the inverter/charger will decide how much battery/how much generator produced power goes to the load. (I probably over simplified that...or don't understand the mechanics at all!!)

Anyway, here is my dilemma. I don't see how I can feed the inverter/charger with only 120vac when the output is set to be 240vac.  All may be good if my batteries are up and it can pull power from them, but what if I have killed the battery feed to the inverter/charger or the batteries are flat.... how will a 120vac input from my generator magically turn into 240vac out the other side to feed my load center?

I will admit I'm a bit over my head here! I have wired homes, businesses and even control circuits but when it comes to this solar equipment I seem to get lost! I can't help but think that if I feed the inverter/charger -set for 240vac output - with 120vac, one leg will be dead.

Your help is greatly appreciated!
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,894 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #2
    Don't be over your head try it. csw40408 will work and output 240vac from a 120vac genset. To be able to start the inverter, the battery for a 48v nominal must be at least 24vdc or higher. You should not really ever be doing this as the inverter will cut out at 42vdc from the battery.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • Tecnodave
    Tecnodave Registered Users Posts: 437 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2019 #3
    nobadays,

    the main transformer in some inverters that are split phase are autotransformers...they can balance 120/240 split phase loads as well as output 240 volts from a 120 volt input or output 120 volts from 240 volt input. My MagnaSine MS4024AE is wired that way and does output 240 volts from mt Onan 4kw generator which is 120 volt only.  I suspect that is what the XW does but I'm not sure of that. Outback uses an external Autotransformer to do the same thing. Model XT-240  the trace inverters also had an external Autotransformer 

    Wikipedia  Autotransformer 
    EDIT.........I meant to say SW not XW.........
    david
    2 Classic 150, 2 Kid, 5 arrays 7.5 kw total  2ea.  2S6P Sharp NE-170/NE-165, 1ea. 12P Sanyo HIT 200,  2ea. 4/6P Sanyo HIT 200, MagnaSine MS4024AE, Exeltech XP-1100,  2 Banks L-16 battery, Rolls-Surette S-530 and Interstate Traction, Shunts with whizbangJr and Bogart Tri-Metric, iCharger i208B  dc-dc buck/boost converter with BMS for small form lithium 8S 16650 or LiFePO4,
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,894 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #4
    I wish you were right about the XW. It is not designed to operate from a 120vac source. The CSW is however.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • nobadays
    nobadays Registered Users Posts: 43 ✭✭
    #5
    Dave - Tecnodave...  My Inverter/Charger is the CSW I believe.

    This is off the invoice: "Schneider Electric SW Conext 4048-120 3800 watts, 48 volts DC. 120/240 volts AC output, split phase. 50/60 Hz selectable."  So if the "C" in CSW is for Conext it looks like I am good to go!   So many things have jumped out that I guess I'm beginning to get "gun shy." 
    Thank you! Don
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  • Tecnodave
    Tecnodave Registered Users Posts: 437 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2019 #6
    ,Dave,

    thanks for that info , I confess, I don't know too much about the XW  but it looks good so far ,  I think I need to download the manuals to see the difference between the two lines. 

    David

    EDIT:  went and peeked in the store, I did not know the XT+ was only in the 7-8 kW units, been awaiting a beta MidNite Rosie
    2 Classic 150, 2 Kid, 5 arrays 7.5 kw total  2ea.  2S6P Sharp NE-170/NE-165, 1ea. 12P Sanyo HIT 200,  2ea. 4/6P Sanyo HIT 200, MagnaSine MS4024AE, Exeltech XP-1100,  2 Banks L-16 battery, Rolls-Surette S-530 and Interstate Traction, Shunts with whizbangJr and Bogart Tri-Metric, iCharger i208B  dc-dc buck/boost converter with BMS for small form lithium 8S 16650 or LiFePO4,
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  • MrM1
    MrM1 Registered Users Posts: 487 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2019 #7
    Don the csw na (aka Conext SW North America ) handles 120v input to 240v output. It's just with the 120v input there are limits to charging etc 
    REC TwinPeak 2 285W 3S-3P 2.6kW-STC / 1.9kW-NMOT Array / MN Solar Classic 150 / 2017 Conext SW 4024 Inverter latest firmware / OB PSX-240 Autotransfomer for load balancing / Trojan L16H-AC 435Ah bank 4S connected to Inverter with 7' of 4/0 cable / 24 volt system / Grid-Assist or Backup Solar Generator System Powering 3200Whs Daily / System went Online Oct 2017 / System, Pics and Discussion
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  • Tecnodave
    Tecnodave Registered Users Posts: 437 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2019 #8
    Also please note.....operating at 120 volt only the battery charge output is reduced but also the feed through is limited My MS4024AE is limited to 2900 watts out from 120 volts in , I beleive with the CSW4024 is limited to 2700 watts out in pass through mode.....with 120 volts only in.......battery charging......and pass through total power.  It's in the manuals.
    I do not know much can be output in grid support mode that the CSW has with 120 only in......if it is even capable of grid support at 120 volts in.......it is probably limited as well.   The MS4024AE does not sycronize with the grid and has no grid support feature. This(power pass through phase balancing)  has to do with the Autotransformer used as the main transformer used in both these units.
    2 Classic 150, 2 Kid, 5 arrays 7.5 kw total  2ea.  2S6P Sharp NE-170/NE-165, 1ea. 12P Sanyo HIT 200,  2ea. 4/6P Sanyo HIT 200, MagnaSine MS4024AE, Exeltech XP-1100,  2 Banks L-16 battery, Rolls-Surette S-530 and Interstate Traction, Shunts with whizbangJr and Bogart Tri-Metric, iCharger i208B  dc-dc buck/boost converter with BMS for small form lithium 8S 16650 or LiFePO4,
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  • nobadays
    nobadays Registered Users Posts: 43 ✭✭
    #9
    MrM1...Tecnodave,  thank you for helping to set my mind at ease!  I know that the CSW 4048 when wired for 120vac output can only deliver 2700 watts ac output so it makes sense if the ac input is only 120vac the output would be reduced.  We are off grid so no grid tie issues.

    I haven't even opened the boxes yet but did download the manuals but looking through them I did not find this information.   I have the installation guide and owner's manuals.  I admit I have not read them cover to cover as I am one of those hands on learners. I will have the manuals out and in my hand as I start installing the equipment next week. I have to see it, read it and do it before it really sinks in.

    Thank you again! 
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  • MrM1
    MrM1 Registered Users Posts: 487 ✭✭✭✭
    #10
    Did you also get a system control panel (scp) and /or combox? U need this to set up the CSW
    REC TwinPeak 2 285W 3S-3P 2.6kW-STC / 1.9kW-NMOT Array / MN Solar Classic 150 / 2017 Conext SW 4024 Inverter latest firmware / OB PSX-240 Autotransfomer for load balancing / Trojan L16H-AC 435Ah bank 4S connected to Inverter with 7' of 4/0 cable / 24 volt system / Grid-Assist or Backup Solar Generator System Powering 3200Whs Daily / System went Online Oct 2017 / System, Pics and Discussion
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  • nobadays
    nobadays Registered Users Posts: 43 ✭✭
    #11
    MrM1.... yes SCP. I'm using Chevy Volt lithium modules (4 x 48v 8kw) so had to have the SCP to program the equipment. I think I have a pretty good handle on how to set up the system...and I will follow the manual closely. 
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  • nobadays
    nobadays Registered Users Posts: 43 ✭✭
    #12
    For those interested, this is the information I got back from NAWS after my contact spoke with an engineer with Schneider:

    The SW 4048 inverter is configured for 120/240 VAC split-phase in and out.  The AC input has three terminals: L1, L2, and Neutral.  You can feed the inverter single-phase 120 VAC and it will still output split-phase 120/240 VAC.  The single-phase input must connect to AC input terminal L1, as the AC input terminal L2 is not able to qualify incoming AC power on its own. 

     

    However, doing this will reduce your AC pass through and battery charging amps to half of its rated capacity.  In other words, by default, the inverter can use up to 30A from an AC source to pass through to loads and to charge the batteries.  By feeding the inverter just 120VAC, this 30A capacity would be reduced to 15, so the pass through would not be more than 1800W. 

    Cheers

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  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #13
    To maximize the potential of the generator, assuming it has the capacity, a suitable step up  transformer 120V to 240V could be used, naturally a 240V generator would be the better choice. 
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
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  • Tecnodave
    Tecnodave Registered Users Posts: 437 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2019 #14
    Nobadays,

    I beleive that you are misinterpreting Schneider's statement on this........the pass through capacity is 30 amps per leg, running on one leg is therefore 120 volts times 30 amps.....3600 watts  whereas with two legs feeding the pass through power is 2  times that ....240 volts at 30 amps .....or 2 times 120 volts times 30 amps....7200 watts....    The pass through capability  of L1 does not decrease if L2 is not present. My MagnaSine does the same exact thing at this same situation. My battery charge capability is 110 amps with both legs feed and 55 amps with one leg only fed. I am doing exactly that as I have a 120 volt only generator.....Onan Emerald 4.0........maybe Dave Angelini will pop on and verify that....Both of these inverters are using the same wiring scheme to feed the Autotransformer that is used as the main transformer in these units....
    MagnaSine MS2024AE.....and Schneider (C) SW4048..........also true on the MS4048AE and MS2024PAE and MS4048PAE

    please note I do not have a Schneider CSW unit..........I will defer to Dave Angelini's expereince with Schneider Equiptment on this issue.... I have and service many MagnaSine units and do only the batteries  and charge controllers of my only Schneider customers installation.....(I took over this account due to a miserabily failed battery installation and the inverters were not the issue). 2 times XW4048 units fed with 240 volt generator

    David
    2 Classic 150, 2 Kid, 5 arrays 7.5 kw total  2ea.  2S6P Sharp NE-170/NE-165, 1ea. 12P Sanyo HIT 200,  2ea. 4/6P Sanyo HIT 200, MagnaSine MS4024AE, Exeltech XP-1100,  2 Banks L-16 battery, Rolls-Surette S-530 and Interstate Traction, Shunts with whizbangJr and Bogart Tri-Metric, iCharger i208B  dc-dc buck/boost converter with BMS for small form lithium 8S 16650 or LiFePO4,
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,894 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #15
    It really is the limitation of this units charger David. From my measurements you can expect a decent genset with a good power factor match to get about 22.5 amps  DC in the normal charge voltages centering around 57vdc.
    Maybe a bit more from a 120 ac grid connection.

     In watts, about 1200 to 1300 watts of charging power. This should be plenty for a cabin system like the OP has. Also perfect for a small inverter based genset.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • Tecnodave
    Tecnodave Registered Users Posts: 437 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2019 #16
    @Dave Angelini,

    Is the PASS THROUGH POWER when fed with one leg 30 amps at 120 volts or only  15 amps at 120 volts? That was the statement posted.....

    Looking at the issue a bit differently , let's assume that the batteries are fully charged and do not need any of the available input, they are being fed with solar only.,  will the pass through be 15 amps or 30 amps? 

    The total power passed through the relay will be the total of battery charger power  and pass through power!

    my MS4024AE. will pass through 7200 watts fed with 240 volts in, and 3600 watts fed with 120 volts in
    max battery charge for my 24 volt system  would be 3300 watts fed with 240 volts and 1650 watts fed with 120 volts
    110 amps at 30.0 volts at 240 volts in and 55 amps at 30.0 volts  at 120 volts in

    i am certain that I am correct on this issue but I do not want to get into a dogfight on this issue

    david
    2 Classic 150, 2 Kid, 5 arrays 7.5 kw total  2ea.  2S6P Sharp NE-170/NE-165, 1ea. 12P Sanyo HIT 200,  2ea. 4/6P Sanyo HIT 200, MagnaSine MS4024AE, Exeltech XP-1100,  2 Banks L-16 battery, Rolls-Surette S-530 and Interstate Traction, Shunts with whizbangJr and Bogart Tri-Metric, iCharger i208B  dc-dc buck/boost converter with BMS for small form lithium 8S 16650 or LiFePO4,
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,894 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #17
    One leg only! As I told the OP try it! 
    The CSW 4048 charger is 45ADC with split phase. You can imagine it will be less with one leg right?
    Just like in Red October, "one ping, one ping only" Yuk here comes a another thunderstorm better go....
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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