Off grid backyard trailer solar

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  • littleharbor2
    littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 2,044 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2018 #32
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    Fullriver AGM batteries can handle Higher charging current than flooded lead acid batteries. While not necessary, you can charge at 20%, even 25%  of the Ah. rating.
    http://resources.fullriverbattery.com/fullriver-battery/charging-instructions/batteries.pdf

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

  • tucsonjwt
    tucsonjwt Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭✭
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    The Full River batteries are 12 volt, so 4 of those batteries in one string would be 48 volts. The inverter/chargers I am looking at seem to be pricey in the 48 volt size. Am I better off with a seperate 48 volt inverter and a separate charger?  It seems that the inverter/charger combos have only a two year warranty. I don't know if seperate chargers could charge appropriately with temperature correction and automatic  dynamic charge parameters.







  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Generally speaking, I think buying a good inverter/charger tends to be a better value than buying quality separates.  Some separate chargers do temp compensation, PF correction etc., but tend to be pricey.

    That said, separates sometimes make sense in some applications (eg need small inverter but large capacity charger).
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • tucsonjwt
    tucsonjwt Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭✭
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    Just to clarify, if I have a 24 volt battery bank with a 230 AH total capacity, at a 13% charging rate, I would have a 30 amp charge rate x 24 volts, resulting in a 720 watt demand on a generator to charge the batteries? So the charge rate depends on the voltage of the system and the percentage of the total AH of the battery bank? Also, the bulk, absorption, and float charge amperage would change as the batteries are charged, so the total watt demand from the generator would reduce as the charger moves through the different charge stages? Theoretically, a generator could be set to eco mode (400 watt output on a 1600 watt normal output generator) and the generator would ramp up to meet the bulk charge demand and go back down to eco mode during absorption and float stage? The inverter/charger could be programmed to disconnect from generator power during the absorption and float stage, and rely only on solar power during those two charge phases?
  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Essentially correct.   The power the generator has to supply will be somewhat higher than the charging wattage though.  For example, IIRC, my Iota chargers have a relatively low power factor, so 720w charging would need something like 720/.65pf=~1100VA power from generator.  OTOH, my Outbacks' chargers are higher PF, so generator load would be closer to the 720w charging current.

    I normally only bulk charge with generator.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • tucsonjwt
    tucsonjwt Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭✭
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    I have been monitoring the power draw on the 10 cu ft refrigerator I have in the trailer with a killowatt meter.  I am getting about 1.5 kw per day.  I am considering getting a small 3.5 cu. ft. chest freezer and using a 120 VAC Johnson Controls mechanical temperature probe which will allow the freezer to act as a refrigerator by cutting off current to the freezer when the probe reaches the set temperature (like 40 degrees.)  The youtube videos I see show about 320 watts ac consumption in a 34 hour period.  There is a problem with condensation at the bottom of the freezer, but I think I can deal with that.  Does that 320 watt figure sound reasonable?  I would not mind using it as a freezer only, but I think the power draw would be close to 1 kw in that normal configuration, which would be OK in the winter but would sap too much of my 1220 nominal solar panel wattage in the summer.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
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    Just to be pedantic... 1.5 kw is actually 1.5 kWH (kilo Watt*Hours). I understand what you are saying. (and 1.5 kWH is 1,500 Watt*Hours).

    Yes, a small chest freezer with a "refrigerator" range thermometer can be around 250 WH (0.25 kWH) per day pretty easily.

    Of course, refrigeration systems work harder in hot weather/rooms/climates--So keeping the area "cool" as best you can will help. And winter/cold weather will help you then.
    • 320 WH per day * 1/34 hour measurement * 24 hours per day = 226 Watt*Hours per day (from video)
    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • tucsonjwt
    tucsonjwt Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭✭
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    The ideal situation would be to keep the trailer at about 80 degrees in the summer, and keep the batteries as well as the fridge in the trailer at the same temperature.  This assumes that I can get that 450 "watt hour" window a/c supported with 1230 nominal solar panels and some supplementation with a small generator.
  • tucsonjwt
    tucsonjwt Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭✭
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    If I have 4 solar panels of 305 watts per panel, should those panels be wired in one string of 4 panels, or two strings of 2 panels in parallel? Would a charge controller be able to the combined voltage of 32.7 Vmp per panel (130.8 total?)
  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
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    tucsonjwt said:
    If I have 4 solar panels of 305 watts per panel, should those panels be wired in one string of 4 panels, or two strings of 2 panels in parallel? Would a charge controller be able to the combined voltage of 32.7 Vmp per panel (130.8 total?)
    If you go to your personal settings and create a signature, it would save the bother of other asking or rewind searching to know what charge controller you have. What you would do to determine maximum voltage permissible is use the VOC not VMP, just trying to be helpful, not critical. 
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
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    Yep, need to know your exact hardware (and some information about the installation--Top of an RV, or 100+ foot run from array to battery shed), etc. Also need the Voc/Isc/Vmp/Imp of the solar panels. Roughly what is the minimum temperature where the system will be installed.

    In general, a good voltage for the array is roughly 2x the battery bank voltage for a quality MPPT charge controller (there are many out there that are not very "capable" MPPT controllers, and some that are not MPPT controllers at all--Even though "MPPT" is printed on front panel).

    For example, if you have a 12 volt battery bank, which will charge at 15.0 volts--Then Vmp-array of ~30 volts is nice (reasonably efficient for MPPT controller).

    However, for a ~140 Vpanel-max input charge controller, in colder regions, Vmp-array-std of ~100 VDC maximum is typical. Too high of Voc-array (in sub freezing climates), and the MPPT controller can be toast.

    And, typically, the minimum Vmp-array-std voltage should be >1.3 x Vbatt-charging-hot (>19.5 volts). If array Vmp is under 1.3x Vbatt-charging, the controllers basically behave like an PWM controller (PWM controllers are much less expensive).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • tucsonjwt
    tucsonjwt Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭✭
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    Sorry. I do not have any hardware selected, aside from the likely selection of solar panels. Please forgive my ignorance of the proper terminology. That is why I am posting in the beginner's section.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
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    No problem Tucsonjwt,

    That is why we tend to have long answers--Both to help educate, and make sure that we are all speaking the same language.

    And if there is confusion, then we can clarify (we try not to make assumptions--The details matter).

    Generally, we try to start with pure math and paper designs. As the math gets settled (i.e., your energy needs for the loads with get us the basic system reference design)--Then once that is understood and (roughly) agreed to... We can talk about the detailed hardware to support those needs.

    I.e, if you decide that ~1,220 Watts of solar panels meets your needs (4x 305 Watt panels)--Then we can start figuring out the size and configuration of the hardware needed.
    • 1,220 Watt panels * 0.77 panel+controller deratings * 1/14.5 volts (12 volt battery bank) = ~65 Amp MPPT charge controller minimum
    And if you have ~65 Amps of charging current, then a "balanced" battery bank may look like:
    • 65 amps * 1/0.10 rate of charge (nice nominal rate) = ~650 AH @ 12 volt battery bank
    The "rules of thumbs" are just starting points (such as 5% to 13% rate of charge for "typical system"--10% plus for "full time" off grid systems suggested)... Get you a quick and relatively capable system design based on "typical" energy needs (like an off grid cabin).

    Yes, each of these devices (batteries, solar panels, solar charge controllers, AC inverters, gensets, etc.) all have their own design rules... But, I like to design for your needs vs giving the "DC to Daylight" answer (like discussing internal combustion engines for a VW bug through a Caterpillar diesel).

    If we can narrow it down to to what you need (VW or Mac Freightliner), then we can discuss those issues directly--And hopefully avoid confusion.

    Once you have gone through a "full design" cycle for your system, the next one will be much easier (you know, roughly, how all the "black boxes" fit together).

    Trying not to frustrate you... There is a lot of information to digest to get a safe and reliable off grid power system.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • littleharbor2
    littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 2,044 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    If you go through the steps to design a balanced system you will be happy and secure in knowing you can depend on your system, as built. Otherwise you may find yourself on the forum inquiring as to "what is wrong with my system". 

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

  • ScoobyMike
    ScoobyMike Registered Users Posts: 37 ✭✭
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    tucsonjwt said:
    If I have 4 solar panels of 305 watts per panel, should those panels be wired in one string of 4 panels, or two strings of 2 panels in parallel? Would a charge controller be able to the combined voltage of 32.7 Vmp per panel (130.8 total?)
    My system is quite similar to the one you are contemplating, with the exception that I have a 150 foot separation between the panels and controller. Check out the Midnite Solar Classic sizing tool (http://www.midnitesolar.com/sizingTool/index.php), it will help you to answer this question.  The answer will be dependent upon your battery bank voltage.  It sounds like you are headed to 24V and I presume that you are going to use an MPPT controller.

    Also, I am using a Honda 2000i with a 12V Iota 55A charger, and the Honda is pretty much maxed out under this load. I draw my batteries down to ~80% SOC and the batteries pull 55A for maybe 20-30 minutes, then start ramping down current draw.  I only use the generator on rainy days and I usually absorb until ~95% SOC. Under this usage scenario I am getting maybe 5-6 hours per gallon run time.

    1.2KW off grid system; 2 strings of 2ea 305W 60 cell panels on a redneck ground mount;  MNPV3 combiner feeds a MN Classic 150 located 100' away;  12V 460AH FLA battery bank powers a cabin-wide 12V DC system as well as a Cotek 700W PSW inverter; Honda EU2000i  and IOTA 55A charger bridge cloudy days and a Champion 3800W generator for short duration, power hungry appliances.

  • tucsonjwt
    tucsonjwt Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭✭
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    Thanks Scooby Mike.  I appreciate your input, since the newer model Honda 2200i is what I have in mind (1800 continuous running watts.)
    I am leaning toward a 24V system only because I have read that it is more "efficient," but I don't know exactly what that means.  I  have read that it is easier to go from 24V to 120V household output than 12V to 120V.  Ultimately, I envision this system being transferred to a conventional RV, so I think having a 12V system has merit, but I am at the limit of solar input at 4 panels at nominal 1220 watts, and an RV would likely only accommodate 3 panels at nominal 915 watt input.  I have seen 3 of these 60 cell panels mounted on an extended Ford Transit cargo van (my likely conversion van choice) by a fellow in New Zealand.  He still had room for a roof vent in the rear.  (youtube 900W Solar Panels on a Van Conversion.)

    Do you just observe your state of charge, then go out and start the generator at 80%, and the charger slows down the current draw, which causes the generator return to eco mode?  I could see running that IOTA 55 amp charger for 30 minutes, per day, then turning off the generator and letting the solar panels do the rest.  I might have to run the generator at sometime during the night to get enough battery power to run the 450 watt hour a/c in the summer.  In southern AZ we have very few completely cloudy days, so I would depend solely on generator power on those days.  I would most likely connect the generator to an extended run tank. 

    I am thinking that I can get my daily winter usage down to about 1 kw hours or slightly less - mostly to power a  120 volt chest freezer converted to a refrigerator, or just use it as a freezer which could also supply ice to a Yeti cooler.  The summer demand might go up to 4 kw hours, which would bring the generator into the picture.  
  • ScoobyMike
    ScoobyMike Registered Users Posts: 37 ✭✭
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    My DC refrigerator is my largest load, then comes the 12V RV water pump, TV and lights. Depending upon how many were in the cabin we would use 15% to 30% of the batteries over night. A good solar day would take the batteries to float by 1:00, and no generator was needed. On rainy days I would run the Honda for ~2 hrs and it would gradually ramp down so it was not like an eco mode on/off switch. I would run a Kill-O-Watt meter and once the load was below 800 Watts I would use the vacuum, toaster or other appliance that my 700 watt inverter could not handle.  I bought a washer that the inverter could handle, I preferred to run on inverter because it caused the generator to constantly cycle (rev).

    Your use case is very different from mine.  I have 24 hr low wattage draw, you have shorter duration high wattage draw (in your trailer office). Once you transition to the RV you may have a more similar use case to mine.  I wired my cabin with 12V, so I chose to stick with a 12V system. I did what you are doing in the early design phase and the experts on this site helped me to evolve into a balanced system that 100% meets my needs.  Often specific questions that I asked were not directly answered and I learned that when this happened it was usually because my thought process was flawed.  Keep asking questions!  Right now you have 2 use cases that are pretty different.  Pick one as your primary use case to optimize and do what it takes to support the other (like run the generator). Start getting some kind of a design down on paper, it really helps to promote specific suggestions.

    Is your budget tight? While solar panels are relatively cheap, MPPT controllers can be expensive. You really should use a combiner box for the solar panels, mine has 3 inputs and I currently use only 2. My solar panels are similar to yours and my classic will support 2 strings of 2 panels or 3 strings of 1 panel. Try working with the Classic sizing tool, the results are very informative.

    1.2KW off grid system; 2 strings of 2ea 305W 60 cell panels on a redneck ground mount;  MNPV3 combiner feeds a MN Classic 150 located 100' away;  12V 460AH FLA battery bank powers a cabin-wide 12V DC system as well as a Cotek 700W PSW inverter; Honda EU2000i  and IOTA 55A charger bridge cloudy days and a Champion 3800W generator for short duration, power hungry appliances.

  • tucsonjwt
    tucsonjwt Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭✭
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    Thanks Scooby Mike.  I appreciate your input, since the newer model Honda 2200i is what I have in mind (1800 continuous running watts.)
    I am leaning toward a 24V system only because I have read that it is more "efficient," but I don't know exactly what that means.  I  have read that it is easier to go from 24V to 120V household output than 12V to 120V.  Ultimately, I envision this system being transferred to a conventional RV, so I think having a 12V system has merit, but I am at the limit of solar input at 4 panels at nominal 1220 watts, and an RV would likely only accommodate 3 panels at nominal 915 watt input.  I have seen 3 of these 60 cell panels mounted on an extended Ford Transit cargo van (my likely conversion van choice) by a fellow in New Zealand.  He still had room for a roof vent in the rear.  (youtube 900W Solar Panels on a Van Conversion.)

    Do you just observe your state of charge, then go out and start the generator at 80%, and the charger slows down the current draw, which causes the generator return to eco mode?  I could see running that IOTA 55 amp charger for 30 minutes, per day, then turning off the generator and letting the solar panels do the rest.  I might have to run the generator at sometime during the night to get enough battery power to run the 450 watt hour a/c in the summer.  In southern AZ we have very few completely cloudy days, so I would depend solely on generator power on those days.  I would most likely connect the generator to an extended run tank. 

    I am thinking that I can get my daily winter usage down to about 1 kw hours or slightly less - mostly to power a  120 volt chest freezer converted to a refrigerator, or just use it as a freezer which could also supply ice to a Yeti cooler.  The summer demand might go up to 4 kw hours, which would bring the generator into the picture.  
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
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    Your battery bus voltage is really a sliding scale between different issues.

    If you need to supply a 120 Watt load--That is ~10 amps at 12 volts... A simple 100 AH 12 volt battery could manage that load. And you can find lots of sub 300 Watt AC inverters at 12 volts. Going to a 48 volt battery bank @ 25 AH per cell/battery--4x more cells to monitor/water, 4x more battery connections, and very few (if any) sub 300 Watt AC inverters.

    Roughly if your loads ares are less than 1,200 Watts or less, a 12 volt battery bank can work fine.

    If your loads are ~1,800 to 3,600 Watts , 24 volt battery bank works fine.

    If you loads are >2,400 to 3,600 Watts or more, a 48 volt battery bank is usually better.

    The efficiency difference using an AC inverter at 12 vs 24 volts is not usually a big deal (a couple percentage points). For example, a 12 vs 24 watt ac inverter:

    https://www.solar-electric.com/lib/wind-sun/PST-300-12-24-specs.pdf

    They are both listed as 88% efficient. And notice, an issue with higher bus voltages, that causes loss issues itself (FETs have capacitance, and cycling between 24 volts "wastes" more energy than 12 volts:

    INPUT CURRENT AT NO LOAD < 500 mA @ 12 volts ; < 400 mA @ 24 volts
    • 0.5 amps * 12 volts = 6 Watts Tare loss
    • 0.4 amps * 24 volts =  9.6 Watts Tare loss
    Picking the proper hardware and configuration really depends on your power needs/overall system size. A "balanced" system design tries to "optimize" the overall system design.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Assuming the loads are in the reasonable 12v range per Bill's post, the RV application might be a deciding factor for me.  Presumably the RV might have 12vdc loads (eg lighting, radio, etc) which could run straight off a 12v bank.  There are 24v versions of loads, but less choice and tend to be spendier.  It's also good to easily be able to use a same voltage house bank for emergency starting.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • tucsonjwt
    tucsonjwt Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭✭
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    Thanks for the input Scooby Mike. Where would I find the Classic sizing tool?

    I expect that a daily refrigerator load of  approximately 300 kilowatt hours would be my constant load per day in the winter. Add another 500 watt hours per day for led lights and charging cell phone and laptops and I think I am at about 1 kilowatt hour per day.

    The summer a/c demand I think will be about 1.5 kilowatt hours overnight, supplemented by the Honda generator.

    My only reason for considering a 24 volt system was for presumed efficiency when compared to a 12 volt system. But I have not yet seen any explanation of that concept, so I don't know if that is a significant consideration. At some point, 12 volt appliances will be in use, even in the current trailer configuration. I presume that there would be some power consumed when converting from 24 volt to 12 volt, but I don't know the magnitude of that loss.

    I would still use a/c in a conversion van, but more generator supplementation would be needed due to one less solar panel in the system. At about 420 watt hour consumption for the a/c, it seems to me that the Honda 2200i with 1800 watts normal would run in eco mode with that load. Direct  connection of the a/c unit to the generator overnight would eliminate any stress on the solar system and battery/inverter. With a low power draw refrigeration system I would think any surplus daytime solar input beyond daytime a/c consumption would satisfy any night time refrigeration demand. A freezer only setup would mean that the freezer could be shut off overnight and maintain frozen food until the following day. 

    What type of DC refrigerator do you have?
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
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    In general, that large of system (300 kHW per month or 10 kWH per day), you are looking at a 48 volt battery bank.

    If you are looking at 1 kWH per day, that could be done with a 12 volt battery bank nicely.

    If you are running a refrigerator is somewhere around 3.3 kWH per day for a "reasonable" cabin/small home solar/off grid system.

    I am not really sure which is the correct number(s). Is this two different systems?

    For the paper design, I don't even "care" if 12/24/48 volts for battery bus voltage--In terms of efficiency.

    In terms of current, I try to keep the battery bank at 800 AH or less. If the battery bank is over ~800 AH, then look at the next higher bus voltage (800 AH @ 12 volts = 400 AH @ 24 volts in terms of cost/stored energy... But 10% rate of charge is 80 amps for the 12 volt bank vs 40 amps for the 24 volt bank).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • tucsonjwt
    tucsonjwt Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭✭
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    I think daily cumulative loads of 1200 watts or less are possible, with the exception of the a/c at maximum draw of 420 watts for approximately 4 hours overnight (during the summer only.) Assuming a battery bank of sufficient capacity to accommodate that increased load overnight (with early evening and/or early morning generator supplementary power input when necessary), would a 12 volt system be appropriate for that total demand of ~ 3000 watt hours per day?  I am assuming that 1220 nominal watts of solar panels will support the a/c consumption of 420 watts per hour during peak sunlight hours during the summer.  I am also assuming a daily generator input of 3000 -4000 watts to support the a/c in non peak sun hours in the daytime and evening hours.  (The Honda 2200i generator operates in normal mode at 1800 watts, and in eco mode of 1/4 output, or at 450 watts, and the a/c operates on high cool at about 420 watts.)

    I see a benefit in have a 12 volt system which can charge cell phones and laptops directly from the 12 volt battery bank with a standard cigarette lighter socket without taxing the inverter.  A 12 volt power roof vent with low amp draw would be a suitable feature for transitional seasons and general humidity control.
  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I have a 12v bank of 4x6v L16 size flooded batteries for roughly 750ah@12v, charged by 1000w(STC rating) pv array.  It's meant for smaller daily power use for more days of autonomy than your estimate, but I think 3kw ( ~250ah@12v) could be handled with daily generator use as proposed.

    The honda eco mode is enabled with a switch, but the generator will run at whatever speed it has to for loads (ie you could run 400w AC plus 300w other loads for 700w total).  It can fault if hit with a sudden large load in eco mode though.  For running something like a circular saw, it's best to take it out of eco mode first.  This may be the case if the AC unit has a large start surge load.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
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    This is for the backyard office trailer... Can you install (temporary or permanently) a 10 AWG buried cable and then use a Kill-a-Watt meter (or an old surplus power meter) to measure you energy usage in the trailer? Get everything setup and running, figure out your energy needs that you want to run from solar, then plan the solar power system to meet those needs (and you can always use the utility power and genset for backup).

    You can send 30 amps a 120' with 3% voltage drop over 10 AWG cable (that is >7,000 Watts at 240 VAC).

    https://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html?material=copper&wiresize=3.277&voltage=240&phase=ac&noofconductor=1&distance=120&distanceunit=feet&amperes=30&x=0&y=0

    Anyway... Just to give an example of the math... Assume 3.3 kWH @ 120 VAC per day and 24 volt battery bank (that is about the largest "24 volt" battery system I would suggest). Using 10% rate of charge and 2 days of storage with 50% maximum FLA battery discharge--This is usually about "optimum" for a FLA battery bank):
    • 3,300 WH * 1/0.85 AC inverter eff * 2 days storage * 1/0.50 maximum discharge * 1/24 battery bank = 647 AH @ 24 volt battery bank FLA
    Then there are two solar array charging calculations. Once based on battery bank AH @ volts capacity (10%+ recommended for full time off grid system). The second based on energy usage and hours per day of sun... Based on battery bank size:
    • 647 AH * 29.0 volts charging * 1/0.77 solar panel+controller deratings * 0.10 rate of charge = 2,437 Watt array nominal
    And based on hours of sun per day. Tucson, fixed array titled for summer production:
    http://www.solarelectricityhandbook.com/solar-irradiance.html

    Tucson
    Average Solar Insolation figures

    Measured in kWh/m2/day onto a solar panel set at a 73° angle from vertical:
    (Optimal summer settings)

    JanFebMarAprMayJun
    4.31
     
    5.12
     
    6.35
     
    7.21
     
    7.45
     
    7.22
     
    JulAugSepOctNovDec
    6.25
     
    5.93
     
    6.02
     
    5.41
     
    4.66
     
    4.09
     
    Say >6.0 hours of sun per day (cover your summer energy needs):
    • 3,300 WH per day * 1/0.52 off grid AC system eff * 1/6.0 hours of sun = 1,058 Watt array
    You are in an area with lots of sun... And if this is an "office trailer", I would suggest that much of your use is during the daytime--So to meet a minimum rate of charge for the battery bank, I would suggest that you tend towards the 2,437 Watt array.

    If, however, you do not have much cloudy weather, and can turn off stuff when there is less sun shining (and you draw most of your energy during the day), you could conceivably use a 1/2 * 647 AH @ 24 volt battery bank (or even a 647 AH @ 12 volt battery bank).

    One system is more of a run and forget... The other, you will need to do more hands on energy management on a day to day process.

    For example, if you chose the 2,437 Watt array, it would (on average) produce:
    • 2,437 Watt array * 0.52 off grid AC system eff * 6.0 hours of sun per day = 7,603 WH minimum per "average summer day"
    Probably more than enough to run your A/C system during the summer day without much worry. And still leave enough energy for nighttime and bad weather office energy needs (fridge, lights, computer, fan).

    Not that a "12 volt deep cycle" battery system is not a "no-brainer" for 12 volt appliances. The 12 volt bus runs from ~10.5 volts to 15.0+ volts... We have had a fair number of reports of "12 volt car accessories" failing as the bus voltage approached 15+ volts (during charging/equalization). And not many like to run at 10.5 volts (11.5 volt battery voltage - 1.0 volts wring drop).

    Running a 120 VAC inverter designed for 10.5 to 16+ VDC FLA battery bus--Does reduce the wide 12 VDC bus issues (HAM -- Amateur Radio -- folks use 13.8 VDC output power supplies to optimize the "12 volt bus" for their nice HAM gear).

    A smaller battery bank with LiFePO4 (lithium Iron Phosphate) battery bank, a 1/2 size battery bank may work well for you too (plus you get to learn more about "cutting edge" storage). (more expensive battery, 1/2 size cheaper, closer to the ideal battery--fast to charge and discharge, no maintenance, long cycle life, high surge current support).

    And, if you want to learn more about your energy usage, something like this might be very interesting (the higher end models will let you long the energy usage on multiple branch circuits):

    https://www.theenergydetective.com/

    The above is a suggested starting point for discussion. You will need to look at its capability and costs, and decide what you need. And note the XXX digit accuracy numbers are not really "that accurate" +/-10% accuracy is about the best you can get in solar (meter accuracy, variation in how energy is measured, etc.). I just use the "whole number" so you can follow my math and downstream usage.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • tucsonjwt
    tucsonjwt Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭✭
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    Thanks for all of the information.  I am staying with the roof footprint of the trailer to determine the number of solar panels.  Any ground mount or roof mount options on permanent structures requires extensive municipal design approval and permitting and $$$.  I need for this trailer installation to be transportable and to have realistic potential for ultimate relocation to a conversion van without extensive new equipment purchases.

    I have read elsewhere, and I believe, that your first off grid battery bank should be comprised of inexpensive batteries because you are likely to make a big mistake somewhere along the way and ruin your batteries.  LiFePo batteries sound nice, but I think their longevity could be easily comprised in inexperienced hands like mine. :)  I am willing to spend the extra $$ for AGM batteries since I have read that they have a operate at 95% efficiency as compared to the 70% efficiency of FLA batteries.  This indicates that about 25% less AGM batteries could used in place of FLA batteries for an equivalent useable AH capacity.  The possible faster charge rate (which still seems debatable based on what I have read) might result in less generator fuel being consumed when compared to charging FLA batteries. 

    Once installed, there will likely be times when I am not able to attend to this system on a daily basis, so whatever system I have needs to be safe and robust enough to independently operate without my daily oversight.  We had temperatures down in the 30s (F) last night and when it is windy with very little humidity the "feels like" temperature is a lot lower.  Winter temperatures at night are below freezing on many days.  Conversely, we have a summer monsoon season (roughly June through September) where temperatures can reach 115 degrees with very high humidity.  This is the season when Tucson receives most of its average 11 inches of rainfall per year. My understanding of lithium batteries is that they should not be discharged at extreme temperatures, and I will likely not be around at times to monitor their state of health.  I know that electrical devices can be configured to stop discharge outside of certain temperature parameters, but that places a $4K-$6K battery investment in the hands of a device which can fail in my absence.  I am not impressed with the 2 year warranty on inverter/chargers. I would think that such expensive devices would be reliable enough to at least approach the powertrain  warranty on new cars (which are now rolling computers.)

    With regard to measuring my total power consumption with a Kill-A-Watt meter, I have been doing that for the past 3 weeks and have determined that 1.5 to 2.0 killowatt hours during the winter is what my consumption would be.  This is based on the current 1.5 kw hours per day consumption of my energy hog 10 cu. ft. frostless refrigerator.  If the 3.5 cu.ft. chest freezer or chest freezer to refrigerator conversion was tested, and confirmed to be 300 watt hours per day, I think 1 killowatt hour per day in the winter would be the accurate estimate.  I currently fire up a small 2.5 gallon electric water heater in the trailer which consumes 1400 watt hours for 15 minutes, so it consumes 350 watt hours total.  No surge start up watts there - totally a resistive load - so although it would tax the battery bank for 15 minutes and does represent a large percentage of the daily winter load,  running the generator for 15 minutes would not cost much in fuel and be better than dealing with the additional fuel source that a propane heater would require.  An electric water heater is simple and requires no maintenance, as long as soft water supplies it, and I do have a water softener installed in the trailer. I have not had good experience with rv style gas water heaters.  I find them to be way more trouble than they are worth, as long as a tiny 2.5 gallon water heater will do the job. 

    I started up the 450 watt a/c a few days ago and I saw no significant surge from this 5000 BTU Frigidaire model. Even when turned to high cool on startup, it runs only in fan mode for about 90 seconds, then ramps up to 400-420 watts.  I have read elsewhere on RV fourms that this model has a built in soft start mode, but I have no confirmation on that.  I have seen videos of this a/c unit starting up and running on eco mode, but I have no first hand verification of that.  I would expect to run the a/c on the inverter, which I assume could hand a small surge load, but would run the a/c straight off the generator if necessary.  This a/c has no digital controls - just rotary dials and numbers to set the thermostat, which is why I installed a 6000 btu a/c unit with remote a few years ago.  That unit also has a "soft start" feature but consumes power in the 580-640 watt hour range.  I can give up the convenience of digital temperature readout and remote control for the purpose of energy conservation.  However, since the 6000 btu a/c can cool the trailer down in a hurry, it might be more economical to run the 6000 btu unit, especially if I install a partition wall in the trailer to reduce the cu. ft. of room space by about 1/2 (although this would also cause more short cycling and less dehumidification in the monsoon season.)


  • littleharbor2
    littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 2,044 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    tucsonjwt said:
    I have not had good experience with rv style gas water heaters.  I find them to be way more trouble than they are worth, as long as a tiny 2.5 gallon water heater will do the job. 





    Have you considered the small, inexpensive propane tankless water heaters?  I've used one on my camper for years without a glitch. They use a couple d cell batteries for ignition. Endless hot water is a nice thing when you have multiple showerers, lots of dirty dishes, etc. I just would hang mine on the side of my camper and use a shower tent next to my camper. You can easily plumb them for multiple needs being being that they have 1/2" pipe threaded input/ output lines.


    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

  • tucsonjwt
    tucsonjwt Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭✭
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    Yes, I have used them. In my case, they a lasted about 6 months to a year then broke- not worth fixing. Those are ok in warm weather. In cold weather they only raise ambient water temperature by a specific amount, and the resulting water may be warm but not hot. Also, they use propane, requiring me to stock another fuel, and they should not be used indoors.

    I set the 2.5 gallon electric water heater to my ideal temperature (about 114 degrees F) and did not waste any water while trying to get the correct temperature. My experiment shows that 2.5 gallons will provide for a  navy shower with enough hot water leftover to wash dishes. I don't think 15 minutes of Honda generator full run time at a nominal 1800 watt level (with 400 watts of spare power to add to the battery bank) would be any more expensive than running propane heater.

    I know you have a good idea and every RVer I know uses one, but I think I will be the nonconformist on this one.



  • littleharbor2
    littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 2,044 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Entirely your prerogative. All good. As to durability My original one is about 14 years old, gets bounced around quite a bit every time it gets set up and put away and still has never failed me. I have only needed to change the batteries one time in all those years. Probably time again, now that I mention it.
     
    Strange you cant get better hot water in cold weather. The temp adjustments seem to be on the other side of the spectrum for mine. Sometimes tricky  to dial in good (not too hot) shower water temp. Oh well.

    You may have gotten a lemon. 

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.