Is the electric car significantly greener?

softdown · January 2018

Add one more looming mega-problem to a growing list. I also worry about the fact that many of our traditional profit factories are under duress:
Beef
Wheat
GMO food
Processed food
Fast food
Soft drinks
Marriage
NFL
Hollywood
Pharmaceuticals are currently doing well but storm clouds may be forming...
Coal/Oil though the current administration is clearly friendly to these industries. My opinion, I have a few, is that if you consume these products then you should thank them rather than hate them. Interesting that so many of the absolute mega consumers of such energy are on a global warming high horse telling us mere proles to cut back. While they use a hundred times more than the typical household. Hypocrites.

softdown · January 2018

The "dreamers" press on with "global warming salvation" via the electric car. I don't see anything stopping the sales of electric cars in the near future. At some point in the fairly near future, we will apparently need to do one of these options:

1) Upgrade the power grid in an extremely expensive way.

2) Equip tens of millions of homes with a considerable solar array and a gigantic battery bank.
The ability to construct gigantic batteries from common elements such as silicone, sodium, or calcium may still be decades away. I should note that we can make gigantic batteries but real world applicability and solutions are still a dream. Right now I would urge consideration of a re-evaluation of the venerable old nickel plated iron battery. Iron is cheap, extremely abundant, and very long lived. Also very easy to re-cycle large quantities. Nickel is expensive but plating is not. Even gold plating is pretty cheap.

What is stopping the Iron Edison battery? Not as efficient to charge but panels are so cheap now.

softdown · January 2018

Did you know that this is the second battle between electric and gas cars? Gas won about a century ago because of the lack of range and charging stations for the electric cars. The image I seen was of a Model A type auto with a couple lead acid batteries behind the drivers seat. My dogs could probably pull a Model A type auto with those super skinny tires and light weight.

BB. · January 2018

A model T Ford apparently gets around 21 miles per gallon and 40-45 mph top speed (average road speeds about 35 mph at that time).

Bill

BB. · January 2018

Batteries are hard. - Bill

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/25/tesla-employees-say-gigafactory-problems-worse-than-known.html

Tesla employees say to expect more Model 3 delays, citing inexperienced workers, manual assembly of batteries

CEO Elon Musk has already had to disappoint eager customers with Model 3 delays due to manufacturing "bottlenecks." Gigafactory employees expect he will have to, again.
Tesla employees say the company was making batteries for its Model 3 vehicles partly by hand as recently as mid-December.
Employees also said that quality control workers were not experienced, and two said that some batteries are leaving the factory with a potentially serious defect, a claim that Tesla vigorously denies.

softdown · January 2018

These laptop type lithium batteries do appear to be pretty intricate for their size. Indeed...high tech batteries are hard.

dennis461 · January 2018

What makes you guys think we need more electricity?
I've been working in the electric generation and distribution industry for 25+ years and have seen the effect flat line demand has made.

http://www.businessinsider.com/electricity-demand-dropping-power-industry-negative-impact-2017-12

westbranch · January 2018

I don't really know personally but here in BC the (only) Power Utility, BC Hydro, is building the SITE C dam with a max design output of 1,100MW (instantaneous ) and an avg. annual output of 5,100 GWh .... I hope they know something I don't....

BB. · January 2018

Even with lots of subsides, I last remember California is at 0.92% or so electric cars (not sure).

And overall, around 50% of the total electric cars in the US:

https://cleantechnica.com/2017/01/20/december-2016-us-ev-sales-2011-2016-sales-figures-state-ev-volumes/

-Bill

softdown · January 2018

dennis461 said:

What makes you guys think we need more electricity?
I've been working in the electric generation and distribution industry for 25+ years and have seen the effect flat line demand has made.

http://www.businessinsider.com/electricity-demand-dropping-power-industry-negative-impact-2017-12

Pretty explosive growth in the electric car seems to be anticipated. Maybe that is a good thing, certainly positive in some ways. What gets me is the fact that so many people strongly feel that electric cars are magically powered by free sun farts.....without increasing the electrical demands from the grid. A grid that largely uses coal and oil byproducts for creating the energy for the electric cars.

I need to drive a truck type vehicle for my service and supply business and get by using a 281. A large percentage of people could just as easily be driving a 30mpg vehicle as a 15mpg vehicle. They could use fans and swamp coolers instead of air conditioners. Our homes could be much more energy efficient. Instead, people look to the electric car to lower energy consumption. It does not compute.

westbranch · January 2018

I was told today by a friend that owns a TESLA, that TESLA Supercharging stations will now act like parking lots if you don't vacate the charging bay within 10minutes of finishing charging. The charge is said to be 50 cents PER MINUTE! .. you get billed when you have your next Scheduled Service!!.... only available at Tesla!
There are supposed to be 10 Stations in BC. We verified there is one in HOPE, BC on Jan 3/2018

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/6024911/uploads/editor/dj/4vvhro72qplg.jpg

Found this while looking for info on TESLA SUPERCHARGING Stations
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/tesla-supercharging-stations-1.3840373

softdown · January 2018

Westbranch......10 minutes seems like plenty of time to evacuate so others can charge their battery. No?

westbranch · January 2018

I can see it if there were others waiting, but... there was only 1 car in the lot, and those kids, truly kids just eligible to drive, were having lunch across the street... in the city it makes sense to me...

Estragon · January 2018

> @westbranch said:
> I don't really know personally but here in BC the (only) Power Utility, BC Hydro, is building the SITE C dam with a max design output of 1,100MW (instantaneous ) and an avg. annual output of 5,100 GWh .... I hope they know something I don't....

These hydro mega-projects take so long in the planning and permitting stages that the initial numbers are fantasy by the time they're actually built. Like in MB, I suspect site C was at least partly justified by exports which are unlikely now, given the price of natgas.

The utilities know these projects don't make sense now, but the sunk costs make them too costly to stop. In MB, we're looking at years of above-inflation rate increases as a result. BC likely the same.

westbranch · January 2018

Site C IS about 1/2 way built and has ~ 5- 6 , 7? years to go. A nephew worked as an Engineering intern last fall and this May again as a Graduate Engineer in Training, for one of the big contractors and It sounds like he will have a solid work sched. up there for at least 5 years. AN earth filled dam, astronomical volumes of fill and concrete so far, 10 m diam penstocks to come etc...
There are so many peripheral issues I sure would not want to be in the sights of an opponent...

I expect that the excess will go to California, I just hope we get paid for it this time. There is very little said about our 50% of the Bonneville (Grand Cooley Dam) power these days so have to believe Trump doesn't have it on the list, at this time...
Like MB, BC Hydro. also, has applied to the Utilities Commission for a long term Rate increase..

Our excess,some any way will be used by the new immigrants that are projected to come to Canada n the next 10 years +.

Meanwhile, migratory increase plays an increasing role in Canada's population growth. Migratory increase currently accounts for about two-thirds of Canada's population growth. https://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11-630-x/11-630-x2014001-eng.htm

bill von novak · January 2018

softdown said:

While we are refining names and numbers a bit....here is a report that states "It is estimated that there’s about 63 kg of lithium in a 70 kWh Tesla Model S battery pack, which weighs over 1,000 lbs (~453 kg)": That is about 138 pounds of lithium, a significant difference than the 9 pounds previously quoted by another. https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/breakdown-raw-materials-tesla-batteries-possible-bottleneck/

I would vote that being off by up to ~4% is defensible. Being off by an ~ factor of 15? This isn't Congress or a government project where "national security" is the band-aid for all sins.

Nope, that's way off.

The Tesla battery is made up of 7104 18650 cells, each 3250mah. Per IATA and Fedex guidelines, each ah of capacity requires .3 grams of lithium metal. So each cell contains .975 grams of metal. That's a total of 6926 GRAMS or 6.9 KILOGRAMS (or 15 pounds.) Looks like someone slipped a decimal point.

Your next question might be "so why does the Tesla battery have more lithium than the Leaf battery?" Because the Tesla's battery is more than twice the energy of the Leaf's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S
http://blog.evandmore.com/lets-talk-about-the-panasonic-ncr18650b/
http://images.fedex.com/us/services/pdf/LithiumBattery_JobAid.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf
https://www.researchgate.net/post/What_is_the_content_of_pure_lithium_eg_kg_kWh_in_Li-ion_batteries_used_in_electric_vehicles

Math is important!

Is the electric car significantly greener?

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