Is APS shutting down DIY Grid Tie Systems

bloodofheroes
bloodofheroes Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭
edited October 2017 in General Solar Power Topics #1
I was just wondering if APS was still allowing for Grid Tie systems, or if you have to have them installed by the Solar companies which defeats the whole point of going solar. I know that in CA they are shutting them down.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #2
    What do you mean by "CA" is shutting down GT Systems. Is this Canada (at least one of provinces have been making it difficult for new GT systems, last I read)?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • bloodofheroes
    bloodofheroes Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭
    edited October 2017 #3
    BB. said:
    What do you mean by "CA" is shutting down GT Systems. Is this Canada (at least one of provinces have been making it difficult for new GT systems, last I read)?

    -Bill
    California. I am looking into buying a system in San Diego. The guy said that the electric company made him disconnect it. Was just wondering if they are going to do the same thing in Arizona.

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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #4
    Hmm... Did he give any details? Size of system, did he get permits and power company approval before installing? Did he install a battery backed "hybrid" system (over the years, some power companies refused folks with battery based GT/Off grid systems over fear of buying off peak power and selling it on peak--i.e. buy at $0.10 per kWH and sell at $0.30 per kWH)?

    There are some cases where a neighborhood had so much solar, that the local distribution grid could not manage the power (was a residential development that was planning on 100% of the homes having GT Solar). GT Solar power systems generally generate higher average peak power than home consumes (i.e., a home consumes over a 24 hour period but generates only over a ~6 hour period--So the solar power system needs to supply higher current to equal the 24 hour home consumption).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2017 #5
    @BB. Said
     Hmm... Did he give any details? Size of system, did he get permits and power company approval before installing? Did he install a battery backed "hybrid" system (over the years, some power companies refused folks with battery based GT/Off grid systems over fear of buying off peak power and selling it on peak--i.e. buy at $0.10 per kWH and sell at $0.30 per kWH)?

    Could one actually profit wit a battery based GT/Off grid system, taking into account the cost of batteries? If so I like the idea, free enterprise the American way, unless of course you're the power company, who likes the game of Monopoly,
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
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  • bloodofheroes
    bloodofheroes Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭
    #6
    He didnt give any details. Just said that it was a "plug in" system, so I doubt that he got any approval. I dont plan on getting approval. Im not building a 5kw system. I will be lucky to hit 1kw.
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  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #7
    No approvals for a grid tied system?
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    edited October 2017 #8
    A true plug-in GT solar power system is usually not something that can get approval. Depending on a whole bunch of details--Plug-in GT systems tend to not be safe. And many of the small/cheap GT inverters are not UL/NRTL Listed devices (not "legal" to use, potentially not safe), and have their own problems (cheaply designed and manufactured, some overheated and failed).

    Note that modern utility meters have can be (and usually are?) configured to only run forwards (prevent stealing of utility power by plugging in meter upside down for a couple weeks at a time). For example, if you consume 500 Watts of power, and generate 1,000 Watts, the meter will bill you for the 500 Watts you ship to the grid.

    Modern meters can also report to the mother ship if you are selling power to the utility. To be honest, I have not heard/seen anything about utilities pulling the meter from homes with guerilla GT solar systems--But they certainly have the right to do it (and some cities will red tag a home that does not have utility power). Welcome to the Bureaucratic state. They are only trying to save us from ourselves (for better or for worse).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • bloodofheroes
    bloodofheroes Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭
    #9
    BB. said:
    A true plug-in GT solar power system is usually not something that can get approval. Depending on a whole bunch of details--Plug-in GT systems tend to not be safe. And many of the small/cheap GT inverters are not UL/NRTL Listed devices (not "legal" to use, potentially not safe), and have their own problems (cheaply designed and manufactured, some overheated and failed).

    Note that modern utility meters have can be (and usually are?) configured to only run forwards (prevent stealing of utility power by plugging in meter upside down for a couple weeks at a time). For example, if you consume 500 Watts of power, and generate 1,000 Watts, the meter will bill you for the 500 Watts you ship to the grid.

    Modern meters can also report to the mother ship if you are selling power to the utility. To be honest, I have not heard/seen anything about utilities pulling the meter from homes with guerilla GT solar systems--But they certainly have the right to do it (and some cities will red tag a home that does not have utility power). Welcome to the Bureaucratic state. They are only trying to save us from ourselves (for better or for worse).

    -Bill

    Yeah, I dont know what I would do without those Bureaucrats there to take care of me. How did we ever live without them??

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  • bill von novak
    bill von novak Solar Expert Posts: 891 ✭✭✭✭
    #10
    mcgivor said:
    Could one actually profit wit a battery based GT/Off grid system, taking into account the cost of batteries? If so I like the idea, free enterprise the American way, unless of course you're the power company, who likes the game of Monopoly,
    I did a quick analysis a few months back assuming 1) the SDG+E "whenergy" real time pricing plan and 2) a Nissan Leaf leased for $144 a month.  (i.e. a leased 24kwhr battery.)  And under those conditions you can just about break even, ignoring the practical problems that the lease doesn't allow you to do that, the utility doesn't allow you to do that, and grid tie inverters aren't set up to do this (but would likely work.)  You do really well in the summer, where the price swing is $0.08 off peak and $1.10 on peak, and less well during winter.
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