Do I have all my components..how about fuses?

System · January 2008

I currently have :

one- Atlantic Solar Products 12volt/16 amp charge controller

two- Solar Cynergy 80 watt solar panels { 160 watts total} { VOC 21.6V-ISC5.17A-VMP-17.2V-IMP-4.65A}

one 150 watt pure sine wave inverter

one 200 A/H deep cycle lead acid battery- 12volt

14 AWG STRANDED wire

This setup will be used to run about 125 watts worth of devices...laptop, small t.v..cordless phone...etc.....

will I need to purchase any fuses/fuseholders to be installed on the positive wires coming from my solar panels ? If so, please advise me what I need and if Lowes or Home depot sells it......I want to make sure I do this correct the first time.......alos, do they make any quick connectors for attaching the wires to the battery ? Thanks

mike95490 · January 2008

Re: Do I have all my components..how about fuses?

Standard 12V (32V actually) auto fuses should do fine.
Keep the inverter 12v leads short, and the inverter should have a fuse already on the cable.
I know nothing about that charge controller, if it has a low voltage protected LOAD output for your 12V stuff.

for those size panels, no panel fuses needed. The controller should have internal fuses/protection for itself.

System2 · January 2008

Re: Do I have all my components..how about fuses?

Thanks....so where does the car fuse get installed...and is it those small colored car fuses...and what amp fuse should I go with...and finannly, what type of fuse holder do I need to get? ..

mike95490 · January 2008

Re: Do I have all my components..how about fuses?

That's going beyond the scope of advice I'm comfortable giving over the internet.

Generally, Fuses should be as close as practical to the source of the power [ 200ah battery], so that if there is a problem, more of the circuit is protected.
In this instance, the solar is a fairly weak source, and the controller can be expected to protect itself. ( my 4.5KW array on my roof has no fuses, not needed (so they say))

my rule of thumbs:

The fuse should be about 2x the rated, expected load, but no more than the wires can safely handle.

here's a gauge/amps chart I found on the internet
http://wiki.xtronics.com/index.php/Wire-Gauge_Ampacity

As an example:
14g romex in a house, has a 15A breaker
12g 20a
10g 20a
note their disclaimer: It is not permissible to be read by anyone who has ever met a lawyer.

The wires should be sized to at least 3x the expected load, so as to carry enough current to fry the fuse, if ever needed. Otherwise, the wire cooks, melts and does nasty stuff, and the fuse never blows.

Connect both the inverter's leads, and the charge controllers BATT leads to the battery terminals.
Connect the miscellaneous loads to the LOAD terminals on the controller. Connect the PV leads to the ARRAY or PV terminals. observe the correct polarity, + to + and - to -.

Perhaps you need to seek out a local HAM operator, or electrician, or someone that can give you more hands-on advice.

If you have links to your charge controller manual, I'd be glad to look at it.

System2 · January 2008

Re: Do I have all my components..how about fuses?

should I isntall the fuse coming right off of the psoitive wire of the solar panel before it connects to the charge controller ?,,,is that the only fuse I should need to put inline?

n3qik · January 2008

Re: Do I have all my components..how about fuses?

This is what my set up looks like. I have fuse/circuit breakers between everything. My setup is 99% to NEC/UL code.

Fuses are cheap, I would put one between the each panel and charge controller. One between the charge controller and battery. One between the battery and inverter. Need them on the positive side only. Total count is 4.

Now sizing:
Each panel = 6 amp fuse
Charge controller to battery = 20 amp fuse
Battery to inverter = 30 amp fuse

NOTE: most inverters have built in fuse(s) protection. I would go 10% lower with a external as the internal are a PITA to replace.

System2 · January 2008

Re: Do I have all my components..how about fuses?

in my 1st post, I gave the tech specs of my panels, charge controller, battery and mentioned the watts of my deviceds I will be periodically running...

how do I know what size fuses I need to put inline between each device? ....

n3qik · January 2008

Re: Do I have all my components..how about fuses?

I added the sizes. The edit function did not worked:grr:grr had to try twice.

You posted in between edits.

System2 · January 2008

Re: Do I have all my components..how about fuses?

Thqanks...so I should put a 6 amp fuse on each positivred wire of each solar panel { 2 fuses total..one for each panel}...and theN connect the positive wires together and the /negative wires together of each solar panels so they are wired in parrellel and then go from there?

n3qik · January 2008

Re: Do I have all my components..how about fuses?

Yep.

OT: WTF, message must be 18 characters or more.

crewzer · January 2008

Re: Do I have all my components..how about fuses?

Sunnyday,

The correct size fuse for each PV module is 5.17 A Isc x 125% x 125% = 8.08 A. So, 9 A if you can find them, otherwise 10 A. 8 A will probably do in a pinch, but I can’t recommend them.

The charge controller is probably not rated for continuous duty. Therefore, the two modules are technically too large (16.16 A > 16 A). Oh well. Look for something between 16 A and 20 A to put between the controller and the battery.

Assuming the inverter is 85% efficient and operates down to 10 V, it’ll draw ~17.65 A at full output power. The fuse between the battery and the inverter should be rated at 17.65 A x 125% = ~22 A; I think 25 A is the next standard size.

14 AWG wire is pretty small stuff. #12 would be better between the modules and the controller, and #10 between the controller and the battery. #8 should be OK between the battery and the inverter.

Check the manuals for your controller and inverter. For example, the manual for the Samlex 150 W sine wave inverter contains this sort of information. If you want to do this right, you’ll need UL listed fuses and holder. Auto fuses generally are not UL listed.

HTH,
Jim / crewzer

System2 · January 2008

Re: Do I have all my components..how about fuses?

Thanks...the inverter is a Wagan- 150 watt/300 watt pure sine wave inverter.....and its suppose to be 95% efficient....but I doubt it ..lol....I havent recieved it yet.....its on its way.....I wont be running any high draw devices with my setup....so I thought that 14 awg wire would be allright...if not, I can buy heavier gauge wire.....Heres the info on my charge controller :

This new Atlantic Solar Products (model: ASC 12/16-AES539, ASP-C3038) solar battery charge regulator for photovoltaic systems is manufactured by Specialty Concepts a world leader in PV controls whose motto is "Nobody can claim more experience and reliability than Specialty Concepts". It is perfect for RV's, 5th wheels, homes, farms, boats, cars or anything equipped with 12v solar panels.

FEATURES:

Made in the USA
12 volt, 16 amp
Combine in parallel for addtional wattages (as stated in spec below). Combining in parallel is also useful for dissimliar arrays that feed the same battery bank.
Automatic Sequencing Controller (ASC)
Pulse Width Modulated (PWM)
Highly Reliable
Blocking diode for reverse leakage protection
Low frequency
Shunt charge regulator

Highly Weather resistant suitable for outside mountable due to the hard epoxy resin casing (outdoor charging stations, outdoor lighting, boating projects, farm fields, etc.)
LED for charging
LED for alarm
Anodized aluminum chassis
Lightning protection
Two terminal block strips accepting 10awg
Comes complete with the A, E, and S options
Option A: Temperature compensationOption
Option E: Provides a 10 amp relay for Low Voltage Load Disconnect (LVD)/Generator Start
Option S539: made Special for Atlantic Solar Products
Well documented 24 page installation and operation manual that you can download below directly from the manufacturers web site (spec sheet and other info also available, please email)
This unit will fully charge a completely dead battery
Max Voltage: 26Volts
Max Current: 16Amps
Max Wattage: 192 - 416 watts as follows: the controller will accept a panel or an array of panels that is guaranteed not to go over 16 amps and 26 volts. Multiplied out that is 416 watts max. So will accommodate panels up to a max of an absolute max of 416 watts
Retails for over $90
.
INSTRUCTION/INSTALLATION MANUAL: http://www.specialtyconcepts.com/SPECIALTY_CONCEPTS_PDF_FILES/ASC_INSTRUC_MANUAL.PDF

n3qik · January 2008

Re: Do I have all my components..how about fuses?

IMP=4.65 X 2 = 9.30 AMPS. Is this not what he will see in real life output, maybe less. I have read most panels seldom put out at the rated power. If this is true, a 16 AMP controller will be find.

Edit:
Found this in the manual:
"These charging sources can damage the ASC and/or the generating equipment because the ASC regulates charging by short circuiting the input."

This is not good, I would look a another controller if you can.

System2 · January 2008

Re: Do I have all my components..how about fuses?

but that warning about damging the ASC is just to advise agasint using the controller for wind/hydro sources of power generation...correct?

System2 · January 2008

Re: Do I have all my components..how about fuses?

n3qik wrote: »

IMP=4.65 X 2 = 9.30 AMPS. Is this not what he will see in real life output, maybe less. I have read most panels seldom put out at the rated power. If this is true, a 16 AMP controller will be find.

.

and if this is truue, then theres no way my 2 solar panels could produce 16 amps or more...so I wouldnt even need two fuses wired to the solar panels..to the charge controller?

crewzer · January 2008

Re: Do I have all my components..how about fuses?

Sunnyday,

It's true both the output voltage and the output current from a PV module are usually less that the spec values. However, there are certain conditions under which the values meet or exceed those specs, and your system should (must?) be designed to handle those conditions.

NEC 690.8(A)(1) defines maximum current as Isc x 125%. This value is also treated as continuous [690.8(B)]. Additionally, circuit breakers or fuses must be rated at an additional 125%, unless they’re rated for 100% continuous duty and/or possible conditions-of-use derating (i.e., high temperature).

The issue with the first 125% multiplier is due to unusually high solar irradiation during certain environmental conditions. Specifically, conditions such as edge-of-cloud events, high-altitude applications, or reflections from water, snow, or ice can dramatically increase PV current output. The PV systems wiring, fuses/breakers, and other components must be sized and/or protected to deal with these excess current excursions, even if they are infrequent and/or brief.

See here for an "edge-of-cloud" discussion: http://www.outbackpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=578
See here for a "winter reflection" discussion: http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?t=621

The correct size fuse for each PV module is 5.17 A Isc x 125% x 125% = 8.08 A. So, 9 A if you can find them, otherwise 10 A. 8 A will probably do in a pinch, but I can’t recommend them. It’s possible that a maximum fuse size spec is included on the product label on the backside of each module.

Thanks for providing the info on the controller and inverter. This info would have been handy earlier in this discussion. Your controller’s “load current, short circuit, continuous” appears to be 16 A. Since the total short circuit continuous current from your array is 5.15 A Isc x 2 x 125% = 12.925 A, your 16 A controller appears to be adequate for your proposed PV array.

Note that the controller manual contains suggestions for wire sizes between the PV array and the controller as well as for between the controller and the battery; see table on sheet #6. Fuse locations are also suggested; see drawing on sheet #7.

Your Wagan inverter’s manual indicates the efficiency is “approximately 90%”. Assuming the inverter is actually 85% efficient and operates down to 10 V, it’ll draw 150 W / (10 V x 85%) = ~17.65 A at full output power. The fuse between the battery and the inverter should be rated at 17.65 A x 125% = ~22 A; I think 25 A is the next standard size. A 20 A fuse may provide you with some measure of “early” protection.

See: http://www.wagan.com/downloads/9754%20manual.pdf

Good luck with your system!
Jim / crewzer

System2 · January 2008

Re: Do I have all my components..how about fuses?

Thanks to everyone for your replies/help//......I think I will go get the fuses/ fuse holders today.....

My setup is gonna be all close together....so my wire lengths will be 5 ft or less for each connection....this is why I though I could use 14 AWG gauge wire and also because I will only be pulling a max of 125 watts for my appliances....but evidently im wrong about this? Also, is there any difference in system efficiency by using stranded copper wire or solid copper wire ? And can anyone recomeend a dependable sealed/ glass matt deep discharge 12v battery that has a high A/h rating { 100 A/h or more} and cost between $100- $200....{ the less expensive the better} .....and are you connectin your wires to your battery by using normal automotive lead battery clamps ? I really appreciate everyones help and look forward to using solar power as soon as I have all my info correct.....

rplarry · January 2008

Re: Do I have all my components..how about fuses?

sunnyday
I used to have a Wagan 300 watt sine wave inverter and it used about 2 amps@12v (24 watts) at idle. This amounted to 48 amphours used in a 24 hour period. Yours may be different. What I did to reduce that was to install a relay and a remote switch so that I could shut off the inverter power when I did not need it. Something you might want to check on.
Larry
PS: 48 AH is almost 50% of your available power from a 200 AH battery, but maybe the newer Wagans are not wasteful at idle.

crewzer · January 2008

Re: Do I have all my components..how about fuses?

Sunnyday,

14 AWG wire is generally a bad idea for your application. Depending on your wiring configuration and allowing for ambient temperature derating (could be ~70 C at/near the PV modules), 14 AWG wire may not be adequate between the PV array and the controller. Additionally, the NEC fuse limit for 14 AWG wire is usually 15 A. This value is less than I recommended for the fuses between the controller and battery and the battery and inverter. I still like my previous recommendations.

Stranded wire is recommended, as it’s reasonably flexible. Solid wire is not particularly flexible, and motion (i.e., day/night thermal expansion/contraction) will eventually cause it to fatigue and break.

Try finding a Group 27 size AGM battery (~92 Ah, I think), or a Group 31 size (~105 Ah). East Penn’s Deka and MK are popular brands for batteries in those sizes.

Deep-cycle batteries are usually fitted with both automotive style (“SAE”) terminals as well as screw terminal with wing nuts. High-quality Blackburn (Thomas & Betts) mechanical connectors are available from Home Depot.

HTH,
Jim / crewzer

Do I have all my components..how about fuses?

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