Totally Clueless & new to solar!

System
System Posts: 2,511 admin
in General Solar Power Topics #1
I am about to open a small restaurant in an isolated (sort of) area of northern Montana. I have been thinking that I should power the restaurant with solar power. Now for the bad part... I don't even know where to begin! All I know is there are panels you attach to the roof (freestanding out of the question due to our high wind) & they soak up the energy from the sun & provide power storing it in batteries?
Any help where to go to find out how to go about finding out what I need for equipment, how much this will cost me, how to install it, how to use it, how much power I need, etc. would be greatly appreciated! Right now I am running off of a very noisy gasoline powered 17,500 WATT generator. I can't wait to have peace & quiet again!
Thanks so much in advance,
Chef Beth
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #2
    Re: Totally Clueless & new to solar!

    I guess the first question is - how much good sun do you get in winter, and how long is the business open in the winter.

    If you have any chance of grid power being available, you should look into a "grid-tie" system, where you "feed the grid" with solar power in the daytime, and at night, use the grid power. This is the MOST efficient method to use solar power.

    For a food service business, there may be regulations/health concerns about the reliability of stand-alone solar power. (fridge not cold enough because batteries did not charge because of cloudy days.)

    Can you give us a zip code, and what your expected loads are, and nighttime hours needed ? This is going to be pretty pricey, with battery banks, and all, unless this is a popcorn shack.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #3
    Re: Totally Clueless & new to solar!

    Chef Beth,

    Your are in a mixed situation here... You are starting a new restaurant so you can work on installing energy conservation measures right from the start (lighting, heating/cooling, fridges, etc.). But, at this time you really don't know how much electricity you will need to run all of this.

    And, you have to meet food service / health department requirements too--so some of the appliances applicable to a home, may not be available for your use...

    Also, one would need to know what months you will be open (summer/fall/spring or 12 months per year). In any case, you will need your gasoline generator to provide backup power (can close down if it has been cloudy for a few days). And, if you have high wind, a wind-turbine may also make a good alternate power source too... And, mounting solar panels on the ground (really, just a metal structure anchored to the ground) is perfectly OK and may be easier to clean every so often (dust, snow, etc.).

    Do you have electric utility available? Is it nearby, but would cost $xx,000 to run to your place, etc...

    Depending on the answers, your installation could look very different, and the range in costs from by factors of 2-4x (on grid solar is less expensive and most efficient--off grid solar with batteries, inverters, solar panels, generator, etc. will be the most expensive).

    Generally, you would be best to setup your kitchen/building to run off of fuel (propane, natural gas, or whatever you have there)--heating, hot water, and even propane powered fridges would allow you to build the smallest solar array that you can (and keep your costs low).

    If you have a power bill from a restaurant that you have run before (or from a friend in the area) you can find out how many kWhrs per month it would need...

    Generally, restaurants are high users of electricity... Utility provided electricity will cost you around $0.07-$0.30 per kWhr (regionally dependent).

    Grid Tied solar (if you have utility power available) will cost you (in cash out of pocket divided by a ~20 year equipment life) very roughly around $0.25 per kWhr...

    Off Grid solar will cost you around $1.00 per kWhr (or more). This would include the the panels, inverters, controllers, batteries (which have to be replaced every 5-10 years) and rough fuel costs for a backup generator.

    The above numbers are very rough--but will give you an idea of what your "power bill" will be for your restaurant...

    300kWhrs per month--about $30-$90 per month for utility power, about $300 for off-grid solar/generator power...

    3,000kWhr per month--about $300-$900 per month for utility power, about $3,000 for off-grid solar/generator power...

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #4
    Re: Totally Clueless & new to solar!

    In the north, you have the added problem of long days in the summer (lots of potential) short days in the winter, (less potential). My intuition is if you are running ~17kw worth of generator now, the size of any system to be effective would be VERY expensive. As suggested by others, look to using propane for all your heat generating appliances, stoves oven, etc. I would consider using propane fridges as well if you can. I suspect that your propane is quite expensive where you are as it is here in NWO for us. Then you can look to PV for running other things like the lights, cash register etc.

    I have a hunch that you are far from the grid if you have a big generator now.

    Good luck with your endeavor,

    Icarus

    Meegwech!
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #5
    Re: Totally Clueless & new to solar!
    ChefBeth wrote: »
    very noisy gasoline powered 17,500 WATT generator. I can't wait to have peace & quiet again!

    please re-check the label on the generator. 17KW would need about a 40 HP motor, which is a pretty big one.

    Then, how many hours a day, do you need to run the generator ?

    Does the generator have a meter that reads how much power is being consumed ?
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • dale
    dale Solar Expert Posts: 29 ✭
    #6
    Re: Totally Clueless & new to solar!

    The DOE has regional prices and averages for fuel cost. I'm not sure of the model assumptions, but it does make for an interesting read.

    The link is: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/steo/pub/

    On right hand side select "WF1 Selected U.S. Average Consumer Prices and Expenditures for Heating Fuels During Winter".
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  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    #7
    Re: Totally Clueless & new to solar!

    Thanks for all your input.
    FYI, yes my generator is 17500 & it does have enough power to run the entire payload of ovens, fridges, freezers & the works. I have decided to go with the regular utility line that is available to me for now since it is all ready there. Maybe in the future I can add wind, solar, or both as a supplement. For now it is a small restaurant (seats 24) & unfortunately fully electric. I will be using propane for my new ovens & going with lower cost factors for myself & the business until I can afford improvements.
    I do appreciate all your input & wish I could just start out fully solar/wind powered but unfortunately the budget won't allow that right now.

    Chef Beth
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #8
    Re: Totally Clueless & new to solar!

    If you have regular utility power available--then using it is the #1 way to go right now (and converting to propane/energy efficient appliances).

    Your next best step would probably be solar panels for hot water (or water preheating) for domestic water and space heating (in terms of costs). Cheaper to install and get a relatively large amount of "power" (hot water/air). However, there is usually a lot of maintenance required to keep things running (pumps fail, leaks, electronics go bad, etc.). If you don't have a sharp do-it-yourself person there, and/or a nearby installer with good references, be cautious taking this route.

    The next best bang for the buck is Grid Tied solar with 1 year net metering. Costs can be pretty competitive with utility power, little maintenance (clean panels once in a while), reliable (little to fail), and pretty easy to diagnose problems (replace panel with rock hole, replace GT inverter if it does not work).

    Your bigger issue may be with your local utility. Many of the smaller ones will not support Grid Tied power, or their billing will not give you very good "rates" for your power... You might be able to work a mutually advantageous agreement for them to let you connect a "pilot" grid tied system for "green" newspaper coverage.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    #9
    Re: Totally Clueless & new to solar!
    BB. wrote: »
    If you have regular utility power available--then using it is the #1 way to go right now (and converting to propane/energy efficient appliances).

    Your next best step would probably be solar panels for hot water (or water preheating) for domestic water and space heating (in terms of costs). Cheaper to install and get a relatively large amount of "power" (hot water/air). However, there is usually a lot of maintenance required to keep things running (pumps fail, leaks, electronics go bad, etc.). If you don't have a sharp do-it-yourself person there, and/or a nearby installer with good references, be cautious taking this route.

    The next best bang for the buck is Grid Tied solar with 1 year net metering. Costs can be pretty competitive with utility power, little maintenance (clean panels once in a while), reliable (little to fail), and pretty easy to diagnose problems (replace panel with rock hole, replace GT inverter if it does not work).

    Your bigger issue may be with your local utility. Many of the smaller ones will not support Grid Tied power, or their billing will not give you very good "rates" for your power... You might be able to work a mutually advantageous agreement for them to let you connect a "pilot" grid tied system for "green" newspaper coverage.

    -Bill

    im new too.ijust bought a 28 foot used motor home.i want to install solar power and need help choosing a kit.i plan on powering amps .i play guitar.little else but light and laptop.what do i need.help!!
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