Retro fit Old Well

southforksouthfork Registered Users Posts: 29 ✭✭
My backup well / Emergency supply limited use has pump problems I'm looking for a complete solar package to replace the 220 AC well pump well is 300 ft deep with pump set at 275 ft I have a 2500 gal storage tank with a jet pump for pressure system . So the solar system would only need to fill the storage tank that I'm thinking of moving the tank to gain 12 ft in elevation for emergency gravity flow . What would  the best system for my needs ?  Also how do I add my solar system to the bottom of my post show it shows on each post ?    24 solar world 285 watt panels with 24 Enphase 250 s ground mount grid tied . Thanks                                                                
 24 solar world 285 watt panels with 24 Enphase 250 s ground mount grid tied .                                                                

Comments

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,883 admin
    edited January 2017 #2
    You can edit your profile here:

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    And specifically your Signature here:

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    Regarding pumping--You have the choices of:
    • Pure Solar Panels (no batteries, no genset, no AC power)
    • Hybrid Solar--Run solar panels + some sort of backup power
    • Solar Friendly--A pump that will run from a small AC inverter+battery+solar panels+backup genset
    For in-well pumps, Grundfos makes some very nice (not cheap) pumps with a wide variety of pump configurations.

    https://www.solar-electric.com/commercial/solar-water-pumping/submersible-and-well-pumps.html?manufacturer=Grundfos

    There is the SQ Flex family motor which will take 30-300 VDC (really higher than 30 VDC), and also will take something like 90-240 VAC. This motor will work very nicely with just solar panels (pumping during daylight hours)--But will also work with other AC or DC power sources.

    There is also the SQ Family which only works from 120-240 VAC (as I recall). These are similar to above and have very low starting surge current (virtually none)--And are very AC inverter and Genset friendly. The SQ pump motors are all quite a bit less money (as I understand--I am not in the solar business).

    The SQ-xxx pumps are very good quality and can be your primary well pump too.

    They may be a bit on the expensive side if this is only intended as a backup water / energy source.

    There are other vendors/brands out there... As well as other traditional pumps (from Franklin and others) that have lower starting surge and/or can be fitted with VFD (variable frequency drive--basically what is inside the SQ-Flex pumps) at the well head (nominally a 3 phase pump motor, but other options are possible). Typically three wire pump motors with the starting capacitor at the well head have lower starting surge vs standard two wire pump motors.

    Standard well pumps can have very high surge current for starting--Necessitating the use of a large inverter+battery bank, and/or genset.

    If this is for short term emergency supply--A "cheap" well pump plus noisy 4-5 kW genset you run once a day or a couple times a week with backup fuel supply (propane, better storage, or gasoline+preservative rotated once a year, or siphon from car gas tank when needed) would be more cost effective vs a pure solar SQ-Flex type pump+solar panels.

    My usual suggestion is to do several paper designs and see which works out best for your needs.

    Our host as a pumping FAQ here:

    https://www.solar-electric.com/solar-water-pumping-guide.html

    Do you have a local well driller/support company that will do the work--Or are you planning on doing this yourself?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • southforksouthfork Registered Users Posts: 29 ✭✭
    Thanks for all the information I know it won't be cheap I think we pumped it dry this summer and may have fried the pump it has a low water switching device but there's a heavy draw when I turn the breakers on and no water going to tank . The easy way would be to replace the pump or controls ? But solar would be a great way to give me an additional emergency system . My domestic system is another deep well system with an additional 2500 gal with gravity flow provision . I'm in a wild fire prone area and if the grid fails I would sure like to know I have enough water . I installed the domestic system myself but do have a local pump service if needed like for pulling the pump I would need a wheel device maybe I could make one from junk around the ranch . I use a lot of water fruit trees / horses / goats and a large garden . I have a 6500 watt gen set for the house but its about 700 ft out to the well and 300 ft to the second and a 100 ft  drop in elevation and two hundred feet deep and no switching device just cords .
     24 solar world 285 watt panels with 24 Enphase 250 s ground mount grid tied .                                                                
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,503 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Cords will be much less expensive than solar,
    You can get low rate solar pumps (1GPM) that run off a couple panels, but they get pricey
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • AnawaAnawa Solar Expert Posts: 211 ✭✭✭
    South fork, can your domestic and emergency water distribution piping systems be "connected"?  If so, is there any merit in tieing the systems together so that that you can make use of some of your existing and/or new equipment? For example, if you add a new deep well emergency pump, can it be used to fill your domestic tank (or vice versa)?
    Paul 
    in Georgia

    System 1: PV- 410w Evergreen, Mppt- Blue Sky Solar Boost, Batt - 225ah Deka AGM, 12v led house lighting,
    System 2: PV- 215w Kyocera, PWM - Morningstar PS30, Batt- 225ah Deka GC's, 12v led house lighting, Dankoff 12v water pump,
    System 3: PV- 1.5kw Kyocera, Grundfos 11 SQF well pump, 3000 gal above ground water storage, dom water & irrigation,
    System 4: PV- 6.1kw Kyocera, Mppt- Outback FM80-2ea, Inverter- Outback FX3648-2ea, Batt- 804ah GB traction, Grundfos BMQE booster pump 240v, Mitsibushi mini-splits 240v, 18k and 15k
  • southforksouthfork Registered Users Posts: 29 ✭✭
    Paul I have valves to tie one to the other and can fill the storage tanks but I would like to have one system off grid for peace of mind . Its not the cost just something I want to do i have another used pump out in the barn if I wanted a quick fix . Both wells have excellent tasting water but one is loaded with minerals and water spots terrible so i avoid mixing the two . By moving one storage tank about 100 ft from well head I gain about ten feet in elevation and would have excellent gravity flow to everything . Right now I can just place buckets out on the deck and catch all the water I want with this insane weather out west .
     24 solar world 285 watt panels with 24 Enphase 250 s ground mount grid tied .                                                                
  • AnawaAnawa Solar Expert Posts: 211 ✭✭✭
    Just wanted to explore your options to determine alternatives.

    I'm partial to Grundfos SQ-Flex pumps becuase I have had them in service for a few years. If you're looking for a stable and reliable pumping system, you can't do any better than Grundfos. That said, and as Bill has already pointed out, you will need to be prepared to spend the money up-front and have confidence that the ROI is down the road and wrapped with the Grundfos dependability.

    Do you want your emergency water system to be "completely" off-grid, including pressurizing? If so, things can get a bit complicated, so one step at a time.
    Paul 
    in Georgia

    System 1: PV- 410w Evergreen, Mppt- Blue Sky Solar Boost, Batt - 225ah Deka AGM, 12v led house lighting,
    System 2: PV- 215w Kyocera, PWM - Morningstar PS30, Batt- 225ah Deka GC's, 12v led house lighting, Dankoff 12v water pump,
    System 3: PV- 1.5kw Kyocera, Grundfos 11 SQF well pump, 3000 gal above ground water storage, dom water & irrigation,
    System 4: PV- 6.1kw Kyocera, Mppt- Outback FM80-2ea, Inverter- Outback FX3648-2ea, Batt- 804ah GB traction, Grundfos BMQE booster pump 240v, Mitsibushi mini-splits 240v, 18k and 15k
  • southforksouthfork Registered Users Posts: 29 ✭✭
    Grundfos SQ-Flex pumps is what I'm looking at I just need to fill storage tank I already have an ac system at the tank for pressurizing if needed via gen-set or grid but gravity flow will work great from present location just need to move tank a little more plumbing and wire . I re plumbed my Domestic well and tank this summer new Gould jet pump to replace a Sears unit that seemed to run non stop to keep up with watering needs the new unit brings pressure back up in about 38 seconds old pump about 10 minutes with an 80 gal captive air tank . Now my electric meter runs backward when the suns out .
     24 solar world 285 watt panels with 24 Enphase 250 s ground mount grid tied .                                                                
  • southforksouthfork Registered Users Posts: 29 ✭✭
    Trying to weigh all of my options is it possible to add a branch circuit off of my grid tied solar array that wont effect its operation ? the micro's are just wired into two breakers that feed the main or other option to run a 3SQF2 pump I'm a lot closer to my domestic well and maybe I can just swap pumps and place my domestic well on solar ? and just repair my backup well . 
     24 solar world 285 watt panels with 24 Enphase 250 s ground mount grid tied .                                                                
  • AnawaAnawa Solar Expert Posts: 211 ✭✭✭
    It's good that your "on demand" pressurizing with the AC generator and the gravity flow will met your needs. 

    The SQ set-up is pretty straightforward using the Grundfos controller. I would suggest you adequately ground the system. I've had some lighting strikes somewhere between my well-head and controller (about 350 ft apart) that fried the remote generator electronics and blew a ground fault breaker in my DC electrical  panel. I've been told that the in-ground power cable to the pump acts like lighting rod. I suppose.

    I bring this up because you can have flexibility in where you locate your controller from the well pump. The Grundfos controller has an option for a remote generator pump operation. If you can house the controller at or near other structures in your compound, maybe you can consolidate some of your activities. If this is an option, you may need to increase the size of the power cable to the pump.

    Another consideration is pump-to-well sizing. The SQ has dry pumping protection, however, if you oversize the pump to exceed the well recharge rate, frequent or excess occurrences of dry-pumping may affect the integrity of the unit. I don't know that for sure, but something to think about.

    Good Luck!
    Paul 
    in Georgia

    System 1: PV- 410w Evergreen, Mppt- Blue Sky Solar Boost, Batt - 225ah Deka AGM, 12v led house lighting,
    System 2: PV- 215w Kyocera, PWM - Morningstar PS30, Batt- 225ah Deka GC's, 12v led house lighting, Dankoff 12v water pump,
    System 3: PV- 1.5kw Kyocera, Grundfos 11 SQF well pump, 3000 gal above ground water storage, dom water & irrigation,
    System 4: PV- 6.1kw Kyocera, Mppt- Outback FM80-2ea, Inverter- Outback FX3648-2ea, Batt- 804ah GB traction, Grundfos BMQE booster pump 240v, Mitsibushi mini-splits 240v, 18k and 15k
  • southforksouthfork Registered Users Posts: 29 ✭✭
    southfork said:
    Trying to weigh all of my options is it possible to add a branch circuit off of my grid tied solar array that wont effect its operation ? the micro's are just wired into two breakers that feed the main or other option to run a 3SQF2 pump I'm a lot closer to my domestic well and maybe I can just swap pumps and place my domestic well on solar ? and just repair my backup . Disregard my domestic well is already solar powered when the sun is shining back to my backup well .
     24 solar world 285 watt panels with 24 Enphase 250 s ground mount grid tied .                                                                
  • AnawaAnawa Solar Expert Posts: 211 ✭✭✭
    I'm a bit confused. Does your current array (in your signature) power both the both the domestic pump as well as the back-up pump through your main electrical service? Is it your objective to at least have one of the well pumps operating via a stand-alone array or do you want to use the current array and no additional PV?


    Paul 
    in Georgia

    System 1: PV- 410w Evergreen, Mppt- Blue Sky Solar Boost, Batt - 225ah Deka AGM, 12v led house lighting,
    System 2: PV- 215w Kyocera, PWM - Morningstar PS30, Batt- 225ah Deka GC's, 12v led house lighting, Dankoff 12v water pump,
    System 3: PV- 1.5kw Kyocera, Grundfos 11 SQF well pump, 3000 gal above ground water storage, dom water & irrigation,
    System 4: PV- 6.1kw Kyocera, Mppt- Outback FM80-2ea, Inverter- Outback FX3648-2ea, Batt- 804ah GB traction, Grundfos BMQE booster pump 240v, Mitsibushi mini-splits 240v, 18k and 15k
  • southforksouthfork Registered Users Posts: 29 ✭✭
    Yes everything is connected to the main stand-alone is what I was thinking all this is new to me . After a good nights rest I think the best option is to repair the backup well and have a transfer switch in stalled to use the generator if needed . My domestic well already has gravity flow set up if needed .
     24 solar world 285 watt panels with 24 Enphase 250 s ground mount grid tied .                                                                
  • AnawaAnawa Solar Expert Posts: 211 ✭✭✭
    Sounds like a good plan and saves money too!

    Good Luck
    Paul 
    in Georgia

    System 1: PV- 410w Evergreen, Mppt- Blue Sky Solar Boost, Batt - 225ah Deka AGM, 12v led house lighting,
    System 2: PV- 215w Kyocera, PWM - Morningstar PS30, Batt- 225ah Deka GC's, 12v led house lighting, Dankoff 12v water pump,
    System 3: PV- 1.5kw Kyocera, Grundfos 11 SQF well pump, 3000 gal above ground water storage, dom water & irrigation,
    System 4: PV- 6.1kw Kyocera, Mppt- Outback FM80-2ea, Inverter- Outback FX3648-2ea, Batt- 804ah GB traction, Grundfos BMQE booster pump 240v, Mitsibushi mini-splits 240v, 18k and 15k
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