Need help with XW MPPT60-150 MPPT operation.

creakndale
creakndale Solar Expert Posts: 27 ✭✭
in Advanced Solar Electric Technical Forum #1
Last week I received my XW-MPPT60-150 that I had Pre-Ordered from Northern Arizona Wind and Sun. Ver: 1.02, Build 0002

For the past week, I have been learning/running tests on the XW as I eventually plan to have an off-Grid Solar electric and Solar hot water home. However, I cannot get the automatic MPPT function to operate correctly and need some help figuring out what I'm doing wrong. I've read through the manual so many times yet this MPPT issue eludes me. I am an electronics technician so I have knowledge of voltage, current, meters, scopes, PC's, etc.

Right now my Solar electric setup is very small consisting of:
1) Two each 12V car type starter batteries wired in series for 24 nominal volts.
2) Four each 12V nominal, 75 Watt maximum, old PV panels. Measured panel specs: Voc~20V, Isc~3A.

The non-MPPT "Manual" operation performs correctly. I set the Input option to Manual, then set a Reference voltage which causes the XW to "clamp" the
array voltage and the available charge current goes into the 24V battery bank. No problem here.

If I configure the four panels into a 48V nominal array (four panels in series, Voc~80V, Isc~3A) in MPPT mode, my XW operates like this:
The XW starts to "sweep" the PV array. The Reference voltage keeps increasing and it appears to hold at the MPPT voltage (~65V) for about 20 seconds. At this point the charge current appears excellent. But then the Reference voltage begins increasing about 0.5V every 8 seconds. Eventually, it reaches a high enough voltage that the charge current begins to drop. The Reference voltage continues rising and the charge current continues to drop to 200mA. The Reference voltage keeps increasing well beyond the array's Voc. Eventually, the Reference voltage begins heading lower (again at 0.5V every 8 seconds) until it is close to the array's Voc. Then the Reference voltage "turns arround" and starts increasing again well beyond the array's Voc. All this time the charge current stays at 200mA. The MPPT mode continues oscillating in this way until the sun goes down. However, if I abort MPPT mode and configure to Manual mode I can get up to 2.2A into the battery bank.

If I configure the four panels into a 24V nominal array (two panels in series/parallel, Voc~40V, Isc~6A) in MPPT mode, my XW operates like this:
If the input current is less than ~3.3A then MPPT behaves incorrectly as described above. However, if the array Input current is above 3.3A then MPPT appears to function correctly. But if a cloud comes over and the array input current drops below ~3.3A, MPPT fails and starts oscillating as above. It never recovers even when the cloud passes and the array input current goes above 3.3A. If I abort MPPT mode and configure to Manual mode I can get up to 4.4A into the battery bank.

This leads me to believe that my XW's:
A) MPPT function only works if the sustained array current always stays above 3.3A, yet I cannot find any documentation to this fact.
B) Firmware contains a bug for small arrays.

I wrote to Xantrex Customer Service 4 days ago and received an automatic response saying my issue has been forwarded to their suport team. I have not received any other communication from them.

I've tried charging the battery bank when it's under load and with no load. I've discharged the battery and tried the different battery chemistry settings
(Flooded, Gel, AGM). None of this appears to affect the MPPT operation.

Any ideas or suggestions from this knowledgable group?
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Comments

  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #2
    Re: Need help with XW MPPT60-150 MPPT operation.

    congratulations on being the first that i am aware of to receive your xw as i'm sure it's been long awaited by you. the drawback is that you are also the first to have a problem. without having one before me i don't know what you are experiencing and the only one that may have an answer for you before you would hear from xantrex would be solar guppy. if he doesn't chime in here then try him at his site at: http://www.solar-guppy.com/forum/index.php?sid=0bb01dadbedeca91ffcce23c1bac3be5
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  • boB
    boB Solar Expert Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭✭
    #3
    Re: Need help with XW MPPT60-150 MPPT operation.

    CooL ! At least somebody finally got one of these. Yes, low power levels
    can be tricky and might need special considerations in tracking.
    I don't have an answer for you either, but I guess I should look at
    the manual, which I have, and see what you mean by reference voltage.
    I assume this is the voltage that the input ~would~ be at, if it could
    generate that input voltage ??

    Have you tried going to Xantrex's forum and asking there ?? Mr. Guppy
    also hangs out there I believe, and you could get help from the Canadian
    masters as well.

    Please keep us posted on your findings if you can.
    Thanks,
    boB
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  • Windsun
    Windsun Solar Expert Posts: 1,164 ✭✭
    #4
    Re: Need help with XW MPPT60-150 MPPT operation.

    In the menu setup there is a place to set the charging current limit. I notice that it is in the range of 6 to 60 amps, which might indicate that the lower limit for correct MPPT operation is 6 amps although I see nothing actually stating that anywhere.
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  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    #5
    Re: Need help with XW MPPT60-150 MPPT operation.

    I Hooked up My Xantrex Manufacutured XW-MPPT60-150 to the test bench

    I have my low-voltage arrays at 54V nominal and tested with currents of .125 to 3 amps input amps with a 12V battery/electronic load. The unit I have works as expected which is when array is connected, the unit goes to the vmp point in about 4 seconds and then tracks correctly, no half volt jumps but a continual nudging of the vmp/mppt point. For other readers, selecting the input values display, the array voltage IS the reference/vmp/mppt voltage the unit is tracking to as long as its in Bulk charge. I ran at power level of about 20-200 watts and did not see what you are seeing

    The unit on the bench has firmware 1.00 build 0004.

    By what your decribing, the first thing I would check is have you correctly wired the array and battery as a 4 wire connection?. Battery and Array neagatives ARE NOT the same and must not be bonded. if you have a common negative, what your seeing could happen as that would short out the current sense(s) and the unit would not be able to properly track

    If this is not your issue, I would suggest you call Xantrex support as thats not expected performance for the charge controller. The 800 number is listed on the Xantrex web-site
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  • creakndale
    creakndale Solar Expert Posts: 27 ✭✭
    #6
    Re: Need help with XW MPPT60-150 MPPT operation.

    Thanks for the comments. It's good to know that the XW is supposed to operate in automatic MPPT mode with much less than 3.3A array input current.

    I checked the wiring and I do not have the Battery (-) and PV (-) connected together. It's wired as shown on page 2-13 of the April 2007 Revision A Owner's Manual (PDF file, page 33). Although, I do not have an earth ground connected to the Chassis Ground Terminal(s) as I'm doing bench testing.

    Guppy, I think the problem is with the input current sense circuit. As soon as the XW comes to life (array voltage is above battery voltage and the relay clicks) my XW displays the input current as 3.3A (on it's Input screen) even when there's only 200mA of measured input current per external Beckman multimeter. For all measured array input currents of 100mA to 3.3A, my XW displays an input current of 3.3A and MPPT misbehaves. As soon as the multimeter measured input current goes above 3.3A then the display is correct and MPPT functions correctly. Example: measured array input current of 3.4A is displayed as 3.4A, measured array input current of 4.2A is displayed as 4.2A. I will call Xantrex today since they aren't responding to my email request for assistance. Hopefully, somebody will be there on Friday?

    The Manufacture date of my XW is 22/JUN/2007
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  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    #7
    Re: Need help with XW MPPT60-150 MPPT operation.

    The input current not reporting correctly would cause your problems, 100% sure on this!

    Double check that ALL array wiring is ONLY going to the XW charger ... it common to have the array negative and battery negative bonded at another location that is not charger terminals. For example one might have a combiner box and the bond wire happen there.

    If your 100% sure the array has no other connections other than to the charger, ask Xantrex to ship ahead a new unit as the one you have is definantly not working correctly.
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  • creakndale
    creakndale Solar Expert Posts: 27 ✭✭
    #8
    Re: Need help with XW MPPT60-150 MPPT operation.

    Solar Guppy,
    I have removed all meters and loads from the XW. It's now as basic as it can be. I have a switch in the PV positive to the PV(+) connection on the XW and another switch in the Battery positive to the Battery(+) connection of the XW. PV return directly to PV(-) connection on the XW and Battery return directly to Battery(-) on the XW. The only way the PV return and Battery return could possibly be connected is inside the XW.

    Flip on the Battery positive switch and the XW boots up. Display = ChgrOFF and Low Light as I have not flipped the PV positive switch yet.
    Input Display: 0W, 0.2V, 0.0A
    Output Display: 0W, 25.6V, 0.0A

    Covered the array with a blanket. Flip the PV positive switch connecting the array to the XW.
    Input Display: 0W, 33.8V, 0.0A
    Output Display: 0W, 25.6V, 0.0A

    After 11 seconds, XW relay clicks. Bulk. Charging.
    Input Display: 100W, 29.9V, 3.3A (there's no way the covered array is making 3.3A)
    Output Display: 7W, 25.6V, 0.3A

    Uncover the array.
    Input Display: 118W, 35.3V, 3.3A (I doubt it's making 3.3A as it's cloudy out)
    Output Display: 85W, 28.7V, 2.8A

    Within a couple of minutes the XW transitioned to Absorb mode.
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  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    #9
    Re: Need help with XW MPPT60-150 MPPT operation.

    Call Xantrex, You've got a bum Charger for sure ... if it need be explain that the input current always reads 3.3 amps regardless of actual current.

    Xantrex should offer ship-a-head and get a a replacement soon

    Good luck!

    PS: for Xantrex support options

    http://www.xantrex.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=44&PN=1

    1-800-670-0707 Mon to Fri 5:30 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. (Pacific Time)
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  • creakndale
    creakndale Solar Expert Posts: 27 ✭✭
    #10
    Re: Need help with XW MPPT60-150 MPPT operation.

    Solar Guppy,
    Thank you for the Xantrex support info, etc. I have been unable to get through to anyone at Xantrex today and now I need to recharge my cell phone from being on infinite hold. I will try them again on Monday and if I still can't get through I will ask NAWS to help. Also, I'm going to post at the Xantrex Forum just in case someone from the company is paying attention.
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  • creakndale
    creakndale Solar Expert Posts: 27 ✭✭
    #11
    Re: Need help with XW MPPT60-150 MPPT operation.

    Update: I was able to get a hold of Xantrex Technical Support via telephone this Tuesday morning and talked with Gary regarding the problem with my XW's input current sense. They want to get the unit back to an engineer ASAP and are paying for shipping to have UPS pick it up probably tomorrow or Thursday.

    At the same time they are shipping me another XW saying I should receive it early next week.

    To obtain Xantrex customer service: I was told that telephone requests for service/technical support get priority. Emails for customer support do get answered in the order they are received but they are currently running about 2 weeks behind with reading/answering emails. Gary was able to find all my emails within their system.

    Hopefully this will all work out. It took about 10 minutes of being on hold this morning before my call was routed to Technical Support.
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  • nigtomdaw
    nigtomdaw Solar Expert Posts: 705 ✭✭
    #12
    Re: Need help with XW MPPT60-150 MPPT operation.

    I am a devoted Xantrex fan but finding why I ask the question why ? As I become more savvy I see other dealers manufacturers bending over backwards to keep a smile on custumers faces,yes Im talking Outback and Magnum and MidNs , they listen to there customer base, Our thread starter must have been over the moon to be shipped an exclusive XW60 but was left to post for help on the sadly forgotten Xantrex bulletin board for a plea for help. Only damage limitation got him a response ! I intend to voice my concerns with Xantrex as far as I can see its modernise or die in the re sector...... you are slowly becoming a monolith. If solarguppy reads this I feel as a Xantrex fan also why cant they appoint one guy just one guy to spend 20 minutes each day to look at there BB and customers in distress and say hey we care !

    I have a full working perfect Xantrex setup and soon hope to become an installer, supplier,in my area of Spain, at the moment I feel Outback, Magnum MNSolar would serve my needs better, sorry Xantrex but your losing the plot,

    I see the interaction of SG, Creezer, boB, Robin, the independance of Niel and others as healthy fun.................. has Xantrex lost the fun side to business
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  • nigtomdaw
    nigtomdaw Solar Expert Posts: 705 ✭✭
    #13
    Re: Need help with XW MPPT60-150 MPPT operation.

    I am a devoted Xantrex fan but finding why I ask the question why ? As I become more savvy I see other dealers manufacturers bending over backwards to keep a smile on custumers faces,yes Im talking Outback and Magnum and MidNs , they listen to there customer base, Our thread starter must have been over the moon to be shipped an exclusive XW60 but was left to post for help on the sadly forgotten Xantrex bulletin board for a plea for help. Only damage limitation got him a response ! I intend to voice my concerns with Xantrex as far as I can see its modernise or die in the re sector......Xantrex you are slowly becoming a monolith. If solarguppy reads this I feel as a Xantrex fan also why cant they appoint one guy just one guy to spend 20 minutes each day to look at there BB and customers in distress and say hey we care !

    I have a full working perfect Xantrex setup and soon hope to become an installer, supplier,in my area of Spain, at the moment I feel Outback, Magnum MNSolar would serve my needs better, sorry Xantrex but your losing the plot,

    I see the interaction of SG, Creezer, boB, Robin, the independance of Niel and many many others as healthy fun on this forum but has Xantrex really lost the fun side to business ?

    Xantrex proudly stood by XW means Xantrex Wins....................Ok remember the Jedi and the final fightback or even the Final Frontier. does XW mean Xantrex Who?
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  • boB
    boB Solar Expert Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭✭
    #14
    Re: Need help with XW MPPT60-150 MPPT operation.

    Is there any news on the defective XW controller ?? Did you get another unit ??

    I heard a rumour that the X is having a bit more trouble than they would like of these first XW controllers and am wondering how well they work when they do work.

    boB :D
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  • Windsun
    Windsun Solar Expert Posts: 1,164 ✭✭
    #15
    Re: Need help with XW MPPT60-150 MPPT operation.
    creakndale wrote: »
    ....Emails for customer support do get answered in the order they are received but they are currently running about 2 weeks behind with reading/answering emails....

    That's kind of scary, if their email backlog is so bad that it is taking them 2 weeks.
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  • creakndale
    creakndale Solar Expert Posts: 27 ✭✭
    #16
    Re: Need help with XW MPPT60-150 MPPT operation.

    On Tuesday Oct. 9, 2007, Xantrex Technical Support said they are making arrangements for UPS to pick up my defective XW-MPPT60-150 from my residence with a prepaid shipping label. UPS will stop by on Wednesday Oct. 10th or Thursday Oct. 11, 2007 to return the unit to Xantrex, in California under RMA. I was told that I would receive a replacement XW-MPPT60-150 either Monday Oct. 15th or Tuesday Oct. 16, 2007 via UPS. Also, on the evening of Oct. 9th, a moderator from the Xantrex Discussion forums emailed me not realizing that I had successfully contacted Xantrex by phone earlier that day. I'm glad she emailed as that gave me a Xantrex person I could email, if the need arose.

    After waiting a full week, UPS never showed up. I emailed the Xantrex moderator asking for a UPS tracking number as I was tired of waiting for UPS to show up. Later that evening I received a call from the Xantrex's Customer Service Operations Supervisor. She was very apologetic and informed me that they are having problems with the XW-MPPT and they don't have a replacement unit to send to me. She told me they want to repair my XW-MPPT60-150 in British Columbia, Canada and get it back to me ASAP. The next day, one of her team members sent me all the information to have it shipped FedEx overnight at their expense. I took the boxed up unit to FedEx and within 24 hours, on Friday morning, Oct. 19 it was delivered at Xantrex, Canada. FedEx is amazing.

    They've had it for a week and I haven't heard anything from Xantrex.

    I'm still hopeful that this will be resolved correctly. In hind sight I should have waited until these controllers had been deployed with real users at least six months. I hope they don't butcher my XW and they take the time necessary to fix it properly. A little compensation for all the hassle would also be appreciated.
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  • halfcrazy
    halfcrazy Solar Expert Posts: 720 ✭✭✭
    #17
    Re: Need help with XW MPPT60-150 MPPT operation.

    does not sound real promising dont see much of any of the xw stuff floating around. they will get it figured out soon hopefully. either they didnt run a very good beta program or there manufacture in china is doing something cheaper then they hoped
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  • nigtomdaw
    nigtomdaw Solar Expert Posts: 705 ✭✭
    #18
    Re: Need help with XW MPPT60-150 MPPT operation.

    Its not good news for anyone that the XW CC seems to have serious teething trouble, competition for product sales in the market place is good for consumers, I hope Xantrex get a grip soon, as OB might leave them standing when thier new 80 a cc starts to ship. Not to forget MN Classic !
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  • boB
    boB Solar Expert Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭✭
    #19
    Re: Need help with XW MPPT60-150 MPPT operation.

    Yep. This stuff isn't easy.

    As C. Fr. once said, "If it was easy, even Xantrex would be doing it !"

    boB ;)
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  • creakndale
    creakndale Solar Expert Posts: 27 ✭✭
    #20
    Re: Need help with XW MPPT60-150 MPPT operation.

    I receievd my repaired XW-MPPT60-150 today. It was shipped FedEx priority overnight from British Columbia, Canada. The enclosed documentation stated:
    "Performed Control Board Repair and Modification. Unit was Retested, Burned In, Hipotted and Tested Again. No Other Problems Found. Warranty Repair. No Cost To Customer."

    I connected the XW CC to my battery bank/panels and Eureka! It works! The input current is being sensed and displayed correctly. I had half a day to play with it and the MPPT function appears to be working properly with my small array.

    When you remove the access panel to make the connections, the terminal block is mounted to a circuit board that is partially exposed. I noticed that there is solder flux around the visible solder connections. I don't remember any flux around these solder joints when I sent it in for repair which probably means the board was replaced. Originally there was a "QC Passed" (Quality Control Passed) sticker placed across the chassis compartment as a tamper indicator. They didn't replace that sticker. So now if the unit needs warranty service during the next 5 years, I could be accused of opening up the unit thus voiding the warranty. I will have to write to Xantrex so there is a record of this oversight. Details Xantrex... details!
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  • nigtomdaw
    nigtomdaw Solar Expert Posts: 705 ✭✭
    #21
    Re: Need help with XW MPPT60-150 MPPT operation.

    All well that ends well !:D

    Congratulations on your new appointment as XW MPPT beta tester,keep us updated . :p

    I think Ill still sit on the fence a while whilst it stops raining MPPT controller roll outs !;)
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #22
    Re: Need help with XW MPPT60-150 MPPT operation.

    creakndale,
    good deal on getting your xw back and working. please let us know down the road how well it's working and any little things you notice or could fill us in on about its operations.
    nigtomdaw,
    creakndale is not a beta tester (or was that sarcasm?) as he had bought that unit outright as far as i know with the release of the xws to the public for sale. unfortunately he had trouble with his and many times firstly released products will show up any overlooked problems not initially found in the beta testings or it was just a faulty board mistakenly passed for good. we don't know which is the case right now as his was the only story we have gotten so far.
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  • nigtomdaw
    nigtomdaw Solar Expert Posts: 705 ✭✭
    #23
    Re: Need help with XW MPPT60-150 MPPT operation.

    Neil it was sarcasm,:roll:

    Ive followed the post with interest from the start, it could have easily been me as Ive been waiting since last November for one.:grr

    Id have had major problems returning one of thes back to US from Spain, unlike OB who honour there warranty worldwide not dependant on location where purchased .

    I can buy a OB MX 60 from say NAWS ship to Spain and if it fails I can take it to my local OB repairer dealer under warranty in Spain, confirmed by an OB offical on there forum, within hours of posting . You might not say thats fair on the local deallers but they want just a smidge less than $1000 for an MX and I.m not rich enough or stupid enough to stomach that when I can buy from NAWS and other for $500 or less. and ship to Spain for about $100, would you ? Why electrical gear is so dear in Europe from America is a mystery, even b4 the recent run on the $

    I posted the same question on X's forum about 5 weeks ago about there International Warranty todate still no reply. Thats why I didnt pre order and jump in.... the only reason ! I am an Xantrex fan, all my gear is Xantrex but Im getting peeved with there lack of custumer support, indeed it took the originator of this thread topic to post in dispair on X forum b4 he got any direct support. Hence my sarcasm of being a beta tester.

    Whilst on the OB forum the other day I noted an installer listed a problem with a new FX unit he had fitted. looking for maybe a quick simple answer ? guess what OB contacted him direct i persume via email b4 it was confirmed on the forum that he had a faulty unit, hows that for support.

    Whilst on my fence OB previewed its new Flexmax 80 so I ll wait for that to land, safe in the knowledge that if it has teething troubles as I accept any new unit can there will be a company eager to help and an International repair warranty service debt nearby.
    Sorry if it sounds like a rant:blush:
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #24
    Re: Need help with XW MPPT60-150 MPPT operation.

    doesn't sound like ranting to me and ok on the sarcasm. solar guppy helped to design some of the xantrex stuff, but he isn't the company so you may wish to pose your questions to xantrex. i believe they also have a forum, but i don't have the url for it.
    i do give a great deal of credit to outback on their good customer relations and the backing of their products. i would like to think that boB and robin had much to do with that policy and not just the products. on the other hand i'm beginning to think the classic is vaporware as it's been far too long since the initial anouncement here years ago. it was promised to myself, crewzer and some others a beta test version of the classic by boB and robin. nobody can beta test them if we don't get them.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #25
    Re: Need help with XW MPPT60-150 MPPT operation.

    I will, to a degree, back the difference between buying a unit in the US and servicing it in the E.U. (for example)...

    In the US there are very few exclusive territories (for example, anybody in the US can buy from Wind-Sun in Arizona--based on price and/or service). For Wind-Sun--they have to keep their expenses low and, hopefully, their customers happy. The Internet has now made this competition even more difficult for local "value added retailers" to compete with a Wind-Sun (and other large Internet retailers).

    Perhaps the EU creation and support of mail/Internet ordering will start pitting the German retailer with the UK retailer with the Spanish retailer (and it will be painful)... But, at this point, I would guess that this is still rather new and the local retailers have yet to experience the "pain" of extreme competition that has been happening for decades now in the US (Chain stores, explosion of Internet Business based on our old mail-order trade laws).

    But for now, the "local" EU warranty service organization has been funded by local EU retailers/distributors "paying" for the (more expensive?) EU warranty infrastructure.

    If somebody wants to buy a unit in the US--then the buyer takes on the burden of ordering outside their region (shipping, duties, language). Many times the person ordering gets a nasty surprise when they get hit with high duties and filling out custom forms to exchange parts for warranty repair (happened with my father-in-law when he bought some fish pond items from Canada for the "great price" only to be hit with relatively high duties and customs charges by major shippers like UPS). These costs made any Canadian Warranty backed service not worth the effort on his part.

    I applaud OutBack for supporting customers that want local warranty support on foreign purchases. But--I would wonder how their EU sellers would feel about this if they start loosing substantial sales to the US.

    I have these arguments sometimes with my wife...

    I can go to the local store and see the product, ask questions, etc. But when I go home to think about purchasing it--I can search for the item on the web (or use a service like PriceWatch), buy it much cheaper without talking with anyone, and get it in three days (no local sales tax approximately pays for the shipping costs, many times sales tax savings is more than the shipping costs) and it shows up on my porch in three days.

    Or, I will go to the local store and buy it there--because I do not want to lose the local supplier that was there to answer my questions, loan a tool to install, or allowed me to buy extra parts and return those I did not need, to save me multiple trips to the store.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • nigtomdaw
    nigtomdaw Solar Expert Posts: 705 ✭✭
    #26
    Re: Need help with XW MPPT60-150 MPPT operation.

    Neil
    I maybe being a bit harsh on X but probably because OB shine in the customer service department.

    Ive had two occasons when Ive emailed X direct for help got a reply sameday from Barcelona and on the other ocasion next day from Arlington. But the last couple of months X seems to have gone into Bunker Mode, especially with there forum. I think boB indicated that the XW MPPT problems may be more wide spread that this single thread suggests.

    Re the XW vs The Classic, Xantrex announced shipping of the New XW in 2006 for Spring of 2007 it shipped late Oct. Im not aware that boB has given any date for shipping of beta units,its still in design debug software creation you cant test what isnt finished . Creating land marks can be a lengthy process. :p

    BB. Your point is taken, I too have to pay VAT on my import and pay for shipping this is all handled by my shipping company, but I do intend to be the small local supplier in my area and offer the advice and fitting service . but on average US American RE kit from X and OB and Morningstar out here is twice + the price. So if simple blokes like me can buy retail from NAWS or others like Maverick Solar on Ebay ship small amounts and pay import duty add a healthy 40% markup and still be a lot cheaper that the so called offical suppliers who are buying in bulk at whoelsale prices direct from OB or X offical distributor then somebody over here is being very very greedy and deserves to have the competition this simple guy can give. Would you pay over $300 for a C40 charge controller or $410 for a C60. Someone somewhere is making a mint. I make no apologise for upsettig the greedy ones !

    The internet has changed retailing for good. If I need advice on anything theres usually a forum like this for it. Hey I needed help on a stove the other day and found a fantasic forum called Hearth.com. They solved my problem in 4 hours. There will always be the place for the Value Added Retailer heck I hope to become one, the greedy make it possible ! Most people want a professionally installed system at a fair price goods and labour and a friendly wrench local to sort out problems when it goes wrong. Europe may have the friendly wrench and the fair labour charge but it certainly is screwing its customers on equipment prices
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #27
    Re: Need help with XW MPPT60-150 MPPT operation.

    Nigtomdaw,

    I agree that the customer can come out ahead when there is more competition...

    In the US, I think there was an interesting conjunction of the old mail order/catalog sales business (which has a long history in the US--especially with rural communities--guess what the old massive Sears catalogs were used for....). Plus virtually everyone here (including those that probably should not have them) have credit cards.

    When the Internet became popular (plus supported pictures/graphics)--and retailers understood how to make an online catalog... The conjunction of a low level catalog sales combined with a reasonably safe way for electronic funds transfer (credit cards)--it just took off big.

    In other countries, cash tends to be used more, and perhaps catalog/mail order was not big--it seemed slower to go anywhere.

    I know that France years before the Internet was popular in the US had the MiniTel system (spelling?). Read a lot about it and people using it for getting tickets and such online... Did not quite become what the Internet is now--at least from what little I have seen... Don't know why... (less/no graphics; inability to upgrade hardware vs the ubiquitous PC of today?).

    In the end, I always thought that the marketing/sales groups where "over thinking" their sales channels (VARs, VADs, National Accounts, stocking/non-stocking distributors, etc.) at the expense of the customer (i.e., sucking as much cash as possible).

    The Internet has certainly made gate-keeping of information and customers a losing game for many companies now.

    Good luck with your future business venture! (although, you may run into new obstacles once in a while--like "foreign warranty" support--I know the marketing folks in my old companies would have tried to figure out how to stop "out of channel" sales).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • nigtomdaw
    nigtomdaw Solar Expert Posts: 705 ✭✭
    #28
    Re: Need help with XW MPPT60-150 MPPT operation.

    BB.Spain is only just entering the world of big DIY stores Large Walmart style out of town supermarkets, well behind the UK which is probably 5 /10 years behind USA, Ive seen several reports that high Spanish retail margins are stiffling growth, I live near a decent size town, but have an hours journey north or south to get to a large Walmart of DIY superstore. The UK has only a handfull of knowledgeable Renewable Energy equipment retailers (We dont get much sun in good old blighty) Choice not price forced me initially to USA to source my personal equipment. The knowledge bank here (US) is vast and open. My nearest Xantrex OB official distributor is 2 hours south of me, I do intend to visit, and will see if the distributor or the final retailer is making the big bucks. However Im not fluent in Spanish and Im unaware if they have an English speaking rep, so Im forced by my situation to deal with American resellers which Im happy to do and can still be competitive.
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  • boB
    boB Solar Expert Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭✭
    #29
    Re: Need help with XW MPPT60-150 MPPT operation.
    nigtomdaw wrote: »
    BB. However Im not fluent in Spanish and Im unaware if they have an English speaking rep, so Im forced by my situation to deal with American resellers which Im happy to do and can still be competitive.


    Kelly Lane is the European OB rep in Barcelona, Spain. He's a good guy and speaks english too.. We worked together at OB and Trace Engineering...

    Half-way down the page:
    http://www.renewable-energy-world.com/display_article/272696/121/ONART/none/SOLRV/1/Looking-to-Spain/
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  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    #30
    Re: Need help with XW MPPT60-150 MPPT operation.

    Xantrex has worldwide support, though I don't have any insite to who they deal with ( end-user or approved re-seller )

    I have no clue if the person is with still with Xantrex, but I would assume Xantrex is still there?

    With my work in doing a Spanish Version of GT-View back in 2005, I worked this this fellow ...



    José María Delgado
    Customer Service
    Europe, Middle East & Africa
    XANTREX TECHNOLOGY, S.L.
    Tel. (+34) 93 470 5330
    Direct (+34) 93 556 0975
    Fax (+34) 93 473 6093

    Ed. Diagonal 2A - Constitución 3, 4º 2ª
    Sant Just Desvern - 08960 - Barcelona
    SPAIN
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  • boB
    boB Solar Expert Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭✭
    #31
    Re: Need help with XW MPPT60-150 MPPT operation.

    Technosun is one of the big dealers over there...

    http://www.technosun.com/

    boB
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