Air 403 stator windings?

maccluermaccluer Registered Users Posts: 14
I have been unable to repair my old, until now faithful Air 403. I've replaced the control board with no change and now I suspect the windings are shorting.
What is the pattern of windings? Since there are 4 diodes and four wires from the stator it can't be 3 phase like later models. I read continuity among any two wires from the stator. Should this be? Or should there be two independent windings? I really don't understand this alternator at all. My peak 40A outputs is now 4A, with an occasional intermittent high amperage. Running w/o the controller yields only 4A as well.

By the way, I will fly my new Missouri Wind and Solar 24V, 500W low-wind mill on Friday. It's really a fine basic design. I have the (nicely built) Swea direct tie inverter system to try and two MPP controllers for using the mill for radiant floor heating. Will report.

Comments

  • Truth SquadTruth Squad Solar Expert Posts: 126 ✭✭
    Re: Air 403 stator windings?

    There aren't diodes on the stator of the 403. Those are thermostats that were designed to cut out in high temperatures to protect the stator.
  • maccluermaccluer Registered Users Posts: 14
    Re: Air 403 stator windings?

    Thanks for that info---I didn't know that they were hi temp cutouts. But you missed my point. The 4 stator leads attach to a full-wave rectifier of 4 diodes, they in turn to the brushes of the slip ring.
  • Truth SquadTruth Squad Solar Expert Posts: 126 ✭✭
    Re: Air 403 stator windings?

    I misunderstood. Problem is, far as I know, no 403 parts are available. You MIGHT be able to get unreg circuits by asking for the unreg Industrial circuit. Unless your stator is burned, there is less than a 5% chance it's the stator shorted out. With the 403, it's the circuit 95% of the time. What's the serial number?
  • GreenPowerManiacGreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
    Re: Air 403 stator windings?

    Correct me if I missed the point, however, the Air 403 is now called "Air-X" ?

    http://www.air403windgenerators.com/403Wire.html

    These look like D/C generators to me. I'm not sure whether the D/C generator stators can be wired like 3 phase A/C. Four wires, One for each 3 phases and one ground wire, making a fourth.

    Get your digital tester out and use A/C 50 volts setting or better and test each phase to ground. You should get about 1/3 the total power per phase. You'll have to figure out which one is ground first. Mine work like this: Each one produces about 4 volts A/C to achieve, after rectified, 12 volts D/C.

    One or two bad phases means it might have overheated or something else.
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  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Air 403 stator windings?

    Some very basic info on generators/alternators.

    Generator: Field is energized to provide 'source' magnetism. Armature produces output voltage (AC) which is converted to DC via the brushes and commutator alignment.

    Alternator: Rotor is energized via slip rings to provide the 'source' magnetism. Stator produces voltage (AC) which is converted to DC via rectifiers. PMA's are alternators that use Permanent Magnets in place of windings on the Rotor to provide the 'source' magnetism.

    The standard wiring of the Stator on any alternator is point - to - point. In other words, all windings are connected in a series, regardless of how many 'phase' it is; phase is irrelevant when converting to DC anyway.

    Some alternators source the Rotor power directly, by tapping one of the Stator windings. In other words all winding connect points have rectifiers directing the 'positive and negative pulses' to common (+) and (-) terminals. One of the windings will have a separate rectifier feeding positive pulses to the Rotor.

    The principal is the same in any case: a small amount of magnetism is amplified by mechanical motion into a larger amount. Doesn't really matter if you spin the magnet past the wire or the wire past the magnet.

    GPM is correct: the Air 403 became the Air-X. But that doesn't mean the designs are identical or that parts are interchangeable.

    To the OP: you could trying disconnecting the rectifiers and testing each one. They do short out, allowing current to flow in both directions which has a pretty devastating effect on power output. It is unlikely, although still possible, that the wires of the windings themselves have shorted.
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,812 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Air 403 stator windings?

    Doesnt the air-x have a PermMag rotor in the center, and the fixed, brushless windings around it ?
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
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  • Truth SquadTruth Squad Solar Expert Posts: 126 ✭✭
    Re: Air 403 stator windings?

    Yes, Mike90045, you are correct. Here's the life history of the Air:

    1.) Air 303 was the first Air version.

    2.) Air 403 was the next version. It had a different body casting, face casting, rotor, stator, blades, hub, and circuit. When Air 303 circuits and bodies became obsolete, an Air 403 Upgrade Kit was offered by which the alternator assembly of your 303 was assembled to a body and circuit of a 403 and you got the 403 blades.

    3.) Air-X came next. It has a different stator, yaw wiring configuration, and circuit from 403.

    4.? Air Breeze is the newest version. It's pretty much all different from Air-X, even. Slightly different body, different circuit, new style blades, new style hub, new stator type.

    None of these things are really compatable with one another except in minor ways that would lead you to an Abbott and Costello "Who's On First" skit. The only stators that are interchangeable are you can use a 303 stator and rotor with the 403. But you can't mix stators and rotors between the two. Air-X and Air Breeze have different stators that are not interchangeable with any, from what I understand now. Neither are circuits between any versions from 303 to Breeze.

    And, yes, there are a bunch of dealers out there who don't know the difference between any of these versions of Air.
  • maccluermaccluer Registered Users Posts: 14
    Re: Air 403 stator windings?

    Here's more exact info about my 403: It has 12 permanent magnents around the rotor and 36 stator plates, where each bidirectional loop of bundled wires skips two plates. From the stator windings comes two pairs of leads. Each pair is connected to a 4-diode full-wave rectifier whose outputs feed the slip ring. These components alone perform as a PMA, which is then logged down by heat-sinked BJTs that variably "short out" the PMA output under the orders of a controller board containing the standard regulator chip (LM317 I recall).

    BTW, I flew my new Missouri Wind and Solar 500 machine yesterday --- of course in a near gale, but you have to fly when the bucket truck is there. As an early report, the Swea grid-tie inverter works fine except that it is programmed for a higher voltage mill. I have ordered the serial reprogramming cable from Swea.

    Chuck
  • GreenPowerManiacGreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
    Re: Air 403 stator windings?

    That's good Chuck. Do you think the controller board needs to be replaced ? And if so, do they still make them ?


    I know what you mean about Gale winds. It makes a circus act with a flying trapeze. That last gale winds tore the ass out of another wind turbine tail. Never use 1/4" plywood without a good sealer. My newer ones use Press board with an entire can of spray paint for a sealer. Working good so far with all the weather going on.

    Do these systems have or need furling mechanisms ?
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  • maccluermaccluer Registered Users Posts: 14
    Re: Air 403 stator windings?

    GPM:

    I replaced the 403 controller board with no change. The trouble is something basic, like an intermittent inside the slip ring. I'll watch it begin to spin up with normal output, then suddenly drop to 10%.

    As for the Missouir Wind and Solar mill, it's rudimentary---it survives by its rugged simple design. You load up with a dump load and let 'er rip.

    Chuck
  • GreenPowerManiacGreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
    Re: Air 403 stator windings?

    "I'll watch it begin to spin up with normal output, then suddenly drop to 10%."

    Almost sounds like a grounding issue or a diversion control. Check for voltage on the housing while it's spinning up until the point it dumps. Is there a way to disassemble without damaging it ? Some debris inside that came loose and is shorting it out ?
    Nature's Design & Green Energy on FaceBook : Stop by and "Like" us anytime.. Many up-to-date articles about Renewables every day.
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  • maccluermaccluer Registered Users Posts: 14
    Re: Air 403 stator windings?

    GPM:

    Now I can't get it to repeat this intermittent---it's never better than 4 A. I have no diversion. It misbehaves even when disassembled on the table and driven by a drill, even with controller out of the loop and configured as a simple rectified PMA. That's why I originally posted this thread about the windings and what can go wrong with them. Chuck
  • Truth SquadTruth Squad Solar Expert Posts: 126 ✭✭
    Re: Air 403 stator windings?

    What's the serial number of this unit?
  • maccluermaccluer Registered Users Posts: 14
    Re: Air 403 stator windings?
    What's the serial number of this unit?

    The serial # is 40156.
  • Truth SquadTruth Squad Solar Expert Posts: 126 ✭✭
    Re: Air 403 stator windings?

    That serial number is on the cusp of a triac pad issue. Look at the triac pads. If they're greenish-blue, there may be a short at those two pads. You'd need a new circuit to correct that, if that's the problem. If the two traic pads are a reddish-brown, they should be ok. That doesn't mean the triacs aren't themelves shorted, though. And, if so, you need a new circuit.

    Next, look at the rectifier pad and make sure it isn't cut or torn and contacting the body casting at the heat sink. You can get a new rectifier pad.

    Next, check the stator windings that they're not "mushroomed" over so that the windings can contact the body when the alternator assembly is seated in the body.

    Check those three things and we can proceed from there on what next.
  • maccluermaccluer Registered Users Posts: 14
    Re: Air 403 stator windings?

    TS:

    The control board was replaced and corrected nothing. I just ran a test where the two pairs of windings (green/black versus white/yellow) were in turn loaded with a 1 Ohm resistor with the control board completely disconnected. The (rms) outputs when driven by a drill differed by 25%, namely 8 Amps AC and 10 Amps AC. The windings are shorted.

    Here's my central question: What are the winding interconnections? These two pairs seem independent---they each connect to a separate full-wave rectifier. Are they indeed separate windings?

    In my machine there is continuity among all 4 windings and I suspect that that should not be.

    I took out the rotor and carefully inspected the visible windings. All look well.

    Where could I obtain a new or rewound stator?

    Chuck
    ########################################3



    That serial number is on the cusp of a triac pad issue. Look at the triac pads. If they're greenish-blue, there may be a short at those two pads. You'd need a new circuit to correct that, if that's the problem. If the two traic pads are a reddish-brown, they should be ok. That doesn't mean the triacs aren't themelves shorted, though. And, if so, you need a new circuit.

    Next, look at the rectifier pad and make sure it isn't cut or torn and contacting the body casting at the heat sink. You can get a new rectifier pad.

    Next, check the stator windings that they're not "mushroomed" over so that the windings can contact the body when the alternator assembly is seated in the body.

    Check those three things and we can proceed from there on what next.
  • Truth SquadTruth Squad Solar Expert Posts: 126 ✭✭
    Re: Air 403 stator windings?

    You can't get a new stator as far as I know. Call the factory and see if they have a used one, though I doubt even that. If they don't, you can get the stator rewound from any rewind shop, but there are no prints available for the stator.
  • maccluermaccluer Registered Users Posts: 14
    Re: Air 403 stator windings? New are available!

    Amazingly, the distributer has new 403 stators for $135.

    You can't get a new stator as far as I know. Call the factory and see if they have a used one, though I doubt even that. If they don't, you can get the stator rewound from any rewind shop, but there are no prints available for the stator.
  • System2System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: Air 403 stator windings?

    Hi seems you have pretty good knowledge about AirX.
    I have a question: when I compare the partsnumber between Airx and Air Breeze. Here I get the feeling that it might be possible to take the controllerboard and stator from the Breeze to my AirX and hopefully et a Breeze. But the part number for the stator for Breeze is the 24v used on the AirX. Is it poosible that this combination is the difference ? So do you think if I change this to parts it would work?
    R. Jan
  • Truth SquadTruth Squad Solar Expert Posts: 126 ✭✭
    Re: Air 403 stator windings?

    Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm just not interested in helping SWWP sells parts anymore. Nothing personal, but this is the job of their tech support department.
  • System2System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: Air 403 stator windings?

    Ok, I understand. Do you know if there is somthing I can do on my own to enhance the performanc ie get it to start to charge at lower speed, have the controller be not so senstive to turbinespeed/rpm. This so I wouldnt need SWWP.

    R. Jan
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 30,629 admin
    Re: Air 403 stator windings?

    What is the voltage rating of the wind turbine and your battery bank voltage?

    If you have a 24 volt battery bank, dropping to 12 volts can increase energy production significantly in lower wind conditions.

    One short wind thread about voltage conversion
    A way down this thread, some discussions about voltage doubling

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • FrangoFrango Registered Users Posts: 2
    Hope someone is still around watching these posts because I have a question please?
    My AIR403 is the earlier model and getting it going again.
    I understand/hope  that even with this earlier model when the battery volts reach the set point, if it slows right down (hope so) and I believe it will perhaps be because of a resistive clamp that will virtually short the output just like the external switch/brake does.
    If so, what happens then when the battery volts are lifted above this point from a separate solar  installation with its own regulator?
    Will the higher battery voltage damage the AIR403 circuit?  because after all the AIR 403 is right across the battery, no isolating diodes. Cheers

  • FrangoFrango Registered Users Posts: 2
    BTW  the serial number is 31933. Someone asked this of another post for their W/G above.  It was repaired by S/W some years ago and not sure if they upgraded it to the later AIR403 circuit if indeed this was possible??
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