Are panels on the roof worth more than dollars in the bank?

Gene.243
Gene.243 Solar Expert Posts: 35 ✭✭
I'd like various peoples opinions on whether it is worthwhile financially to put panels on the roof.
I'm talking about a grid tied system sized to eliminate most of my monthly electric bill.
Typical consumption is 400 to 500 KWh per month except June ,July, August , and September the air conditioner kicks in and consumption rises to about 2,000 KWh per month. 
Cost of grid power is $31.43 per month customer fee and $0.10537 /KWh

I'm considering a system like this one.  http://www.solar-electric.com/solar-panels-mounts-kits-accessories/prsy/grid-tie-solar-kits/enphase-grid-tie-kit-03.html

To mount a system like this to my roof I have to go on a west facing slope with 20 degrees elevation.  

I've been lurking here for a few years now and am ready to try a system if it makes sense.
The federal tax credit is going away at the end of the year and the credit may be what makes the system make sense. 


What are the factors that I'm missing?

Thanks
Gene

Comments

  • WaterWheel
    WaterWheel Registered Users Posts: 375 ✭✭✭
    Tax credit was extended for several more years.

    Conext XW6848 with PDP, SCP, 80/600 controller, 60/150 controller and Conext battery monitor

    21 SW280 panels on Schletter ground mount

    48v Rolls 6CS 27P

  • Gene.243
    Gene.243 Solar Expert Posts: 35 ✭✭
    Yes indeed. 
    Thank you.

  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2016 #4

    What are the factors that I'm missing?

    1. What is your solar isolation, I believe there is a calculator out there for figuring your solar harvest that includes the alignment, and angle.
    2. What is the power companies opinions, sound strange? Do they support solar? Some municipal electric companies are exempt from "Net Metering Laws" Some charge extra fees. Go and talk with them. Ask about the DIY and what other requirements there are, likely an external shut off these days.
    3. How is the net metering done? In many/most places your extra energy produced will roll over to the next month so you could build up a reserve for summer months.
    4. How much will the electric companies let you do your self?
    5. Will your power needs grow?
    6. How old is your roof? There will be additional charges when replacing the roof to dis-connect and re-connect.
    7. How long do you plan to stay in your home?
    8. What are the local opinions on solar? Will it add or subtract value to your home?
    9. What cost in increased insurance?
    10. What do you think the future holds? Will electric prices go up? Will Energy credits become marketable? Will interest rates go up? Will hyperinflation destroy our economy? Will Trump win and crank up coal? Will the neighbor build a huge multistory building shading your panels?

    I would suggest getting a contract for what ever is agreed with the power company. Things are changing in many states, having a contract can help protect you.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • Gene.243
    Gene.243 Solar Expert Posts: 35 ✭✭
    Photowhit said:

    What are the factors that I'm missing?

    1. What is your solar isolation, I believe there is a calculator out there for figuring your solar harvest that includes the alignment, and angle.  
    2. What is the power companies opinions, sound strange? Do they support solar? Some municipal electric companies are exempt from "Net Metering Laws" Some charge extra fees. Go and talk with them. Ask about the DIY and what other requirements there are, likely an external shut off these days.
    3. How much will the electric companies let you do your self?
    4. Will your power needs grow?
    5. How old is your roof? There will be additional charges when replacing the roof to dis-connect and re-connect.
    6. How long do you plan to stay in your home?
    7. What are the local opinions on solar? Will it add or subtract value to your home?
    8. What cost in increased insurance?
    9. What do you think the future holds? Will electric prices go up? Will Energy credits become marketable? Will interest rates go up? Will hyperinflation destroy our economy? Will Trump win and crank up coal? Will the neighbor build a huge multistory building shading your panels?

    1  PVWATS says I can generate about half of my annual consumption annually
    2  I'll get going and see what they say.
    3  Same as #2.
    4  I still have some insulation to add but this old house is not going to get any bigger and the kids are out of the nest.
    5  Reshingled 5 years ago with "30 year" shingles.
    6  I'll stay as long as I can make it up the stairs.
    7  It's not a "coal" area and there's a wind farm 15 miles south.  House value is up to the buyer.
    8  My agent says none.  
    9  In the future grid power will cost more than it does today.   Interest rates will stay near zero as long as  banks can lend debt.  
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    In my humble opinion, GT solar power is not an "investment". If you have "extra money" and want to "stabilize your electric bills"--It can work ok (it is what I did--But I also did a bunch of "reasonable" conservation steps first).

    You will (probably) not get any of the money back when you sell the property--And with some buyers, they may offer less or even walk away because of all the stuff on the roof.

    You are, more or less, pre-paying 5-10+ years of your utility bill. If you "break a leg" and had to move tomorrow--The money is probably lost.

    The folks building solar panels+inverters and the installers themselves--Nobody can predict who will be in business 10+ years from now. There is a good chance you will have to pay for your own repairs (I had to pay $500 to have my 3.3 kWatt array replaced--Although BP did, and still does, warranty the panels themselves).

    Also, when I installed my system, my power company said I would be "grandfathered" from major rate changes for 10 years--12+ years later, I am now getting forced into less good (from my point of view) rate plans--And the future hold more changes.

    Realistically, I understand the utility's point of view--Only about 1/4 of my power bill is really "variable" on usage--That is the fuel costs for generation. 1/2 the bill is for distribution system costs/maintenance, and another 1/4 is for the costs of constructing/maintaining the power plants. My selling my power at "retail" pricing back to the utility is not a good plan for them.

    In California, we are at something like 5%+ of the generator capacity with just solar power--And past the point where "subsidies" to people like me cannot be buried in the round off error. I have a target on my back and would be wary of future changes in my billing forced by the utility and state PUC.

    But--GT solar does work as predicted, and so far, my out of pocket costs (helped with various old/out of date rebate programs) made it difficult to ignore GT Solar for me (a dozen years ago).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Mountain Don
    Mountain Don Solar Expert Posts: 494 ✭✭✭
    edited May 2016 #7
    There are people who need solar electric... those are the off grid folks. Then there are those who want solar, the grid tie folks.  I believe the rate structure will go through more changes in the near future. The POCO's will raise the basic meter fee to make up for the loss of power sales and to help pay for grid tie folks using the grid as a no cost or low cost battery. That will reduce savings. 
    Northern NM, 624 watts PV, The Kid CC, GC-2 batteries @ 24 VDC, Outback VFX3524M
  • Gene.243
    Gene.243 Solar Expert Posts: 35 ✭✭
    Thanks BB.
    It looks like point #2 from above will be important.
    My city owned provider has a policy of no feedback at all right now.  They have no ability to measure how much power I generate.  They are looking into getting smart meters in the near future, possibly within a year.  

    The Director at the electric department is in favor of paying a reasonable price for locally generated power but it is up to the City Council.


    Are there any inverters out there that will not export but will still produce?  

  • Johann
    Johann Solar Expert Posts: 245 ✭✭✭
    Is it worth it?
    It may take years before you may get to a breakeven point and in cases you may pay even more than being only on grid power.

    Is it worth it, to have power when the grid goes down, even thou you paid a lot for your system. Remember that a grid-tie-system will go dark also if the grid power goes down, unless you have a hybrid system or an independent system with battery back-up.

    In my case, I could just look at the sky and my grid power would go out without having a cloud or wind in the sky. A generator was to noisy for me,  so that got me to get a inverter that was hooked up to a battery which led me to check into solar to extend battery power and battery life to use as an emergency back-up. Now I use solar power on a daily basis.

    So it may be worth it or not , for individual persons for different reasons.

  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    I guess I was one of the lucky ones with grid tie solar.  My payback was well under 5 years (closer to 3.5 years) and now it is all gravy.  Yes I was one of those that hit the sweet spot financially.  It was back in the heady days of Utility rebates, Federal and State tax credits.  I ended up paying about $1.25 a watt installed after all the breaks.  It reduced my bill from about $6500 annually to about $600 annually. Some of that of course was conservation efforts but on the flip side I add new loads with 2 plug-in cars and a new Air conditioned shop/office. 

    Yes I too lost the original contractor due to solar contraction from APS rate changes reducing the number of systems to be installed. I also had to pay for a couple minor repairs and upgraded some conduit from flex to hard conduit.   I also expect to spend some money in the next few years to replace the inverters, they are under warranty until 10 years but that time is approaching pretty fast.

    I have to sort of disagree with Bill in my case, it was an investment that has paid off pretty well, more than anything I could have tied the money  up in.
  • Mountain Don
    Mountain Don Solar Expert Posts: 494 ✭✭✭
    solar_dave, have the fixed costs for being connected to the utility changed much since you installed.  We thought about doing a grid tie back in 2006. Meter fees have moved upwards and the amount the POCO pays out has been reduced. It doesn't look as attractive, BUT then the PV panels cost less now.    We only paid  $664 to the POCO over the last 12 months, so it hardly seems worth it. 
    Northern NM, 624 watts PV, The Kid CC, GC-2 batteries @ 24 VDC, Outback VFX3524M
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    solar_dave, have the fixed costs for being connected to the utility changed much since you installed.  We thought about doing a grid tie back in 2006. Meter fees have moved upwards and the amount the POCO pays out has been reduced. It doesn't look as attractive, BUT then the PV panels cost less now.    We only paid  $664 to the POCO over the last 12 months, so it hardly seems worth it. 
    Yeah they have been screwing with fixed fees for new solar user attached to the grid. They also kicked in a fee that is variable call the LCFR  for everyone.

    [quote]
    lost fixed cost recovery (lfcr)

    The LFCR recovers a portion of unrecovered fixed cost resulting from energy efficiency and distributed generation programs.

    The LFCR is the result of the 2012 settlement of the APS rate case that was approved by the Arizona Corporation Commission (ACC). Arizona has one of the most aggressive energy efficiency standards in the nation at 22% savings by 2020. These goals cannot by achieved without the LFCR or some other similar mechanism.

    The LFCR allows APS to continue providing programs and services that help customers manage their monthly energy use, while also allowing APS to fund the operation and maintenance of the electric grid.

    Whether a customer uses 1 or 1,000 kilowatt hours a month, reliable service requires a certain amount of infrastructure (wires, transformers and substations) built and maintained. However, a majority of the charges on a monthly electric bill are based on the amount of kilowatt hours a customer consumes and not on the infrastructure required to provide the service. 

     
    who is impacted by the lfcr?
    All residential and small business customers are subject to lost fixed cost recovery. Large commercial and industrial customers have current rate structures which already include the recovery of fixed costs.[/quote]


    So far this year my low cost month was about $20 for fees and such, but we got almost a megawatt in the bank that month.