eu3000is with psx-240 and xw6848

new2PVnew2PV Solar Expert Posts: 305 ✭✭
Hi, question if i were to use a eu3000is generator with a outback psx-240 transformer to step up the voltage to 240v will i need to connect the neutral bar in the psx-240 to the ac2 input of the xw6848 inverter? It has been refrenced in thte eu3000is that the neutral is not bonded to the ground (frame of the generator). Can the xw create 120v from its 240 input only? Should i leave the neutral un hooked on AC2?
XW6848 inverter with 2 X mppt 60 150 CC , with Canadian solar 260Watt panels 2 x 3.5 kw array

Comments

  • inetdoginetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    The fact that the generator neutral is not bonded to the frame ("grounded") does not mean that there will not be a neutral wire which will be at a voltage halfway between the two lines that make up the 240V output.
    In fact, the NEC requires that that neutral wire be bonded to ground at some point in the system. It just does not have to be bonded at the generator.
    If there were a bond at the generator and you connect the generator to your house wiring through a transfer switch that does not switch the neutral (the most common variety) you would have two ground to neutral bonds at different locations. That is prohibited by the NEC for customer wiring.
    You most certainly do not want to leave the neutral on AC2 disconnected.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • new2PVnew2PV Solar Expert Posts: 305 ✭✭
    OK thanks, I will connect it to the AC2 neutral connection in the XW.
    XW6848 inverter with 2 X mppt 60 150 CC , with Canadian solar 260Watt panels 2 x 3.5 kw array
  • new2PVnew2PV Solar Expert Posts: 305 ✭✭
    edited November 2015 #4
    I am surprised no one has used this combination of generator and inverter? I thought Chris Olson used this transformer successfully with the xw inverter
    XW6848 inverter with 2 X mppt 60 150 CC , with Canadian solar 260Watt panels 2 x 3.5 kw array
  • new2PVnew2PV Solar Expert Posts: 305 ✭✭
    edited November 2015 #5
    Maybe I shouldn't ground the Ac2 upon reading this forum someone mentioned that grounding the neutral would fry the inverter in the eu3000IS Generator. Now I don;t know what to do?  Maybe the Xw does not need the neutral at all from the Gen?
    XW6848 inverter with 2 X mppt 60 150 CC , with Canadian solar 260Watt panels 2 x 3.5 kw array
  • VicVic Solar Expert Posts: 3,145 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2015 #6

    Hi new2..

    In an attempt to be clear ...  The Honda EU3000is generators have an AC output of 120 VAC,  for North America.  This means that the output Twist Lock plgt has three conductors  --  Black for the 120 VAC Hot,  White the other 120 VAC connection,  and the Ground connection,  which would be the Green.

    If you choose to not use the Neutral  --  the White wire  --   you will simply have NO AC OUTPUT from the genset at all,  whatsoever.  The genset will be perfectly happy,  it will just be delivering NO power to your loads.

    The Honda EU3000is/a s in use here do not have an issue with connecting the genset's neutral (AC cold) to Xantrex 5548 SW+ inverter Neutral at AC1 or AC2 input,  nor does the Honda.

    The systems here have a single connection from the AC Neutral and system Ground.

    These inverters are Stackable,   and each 5548 supplies one side of the 240 VAC Split-Phase power,  which is a bit different than the Conext XW inverters,  which have native Split-Phase outputs from a single inverter.

    This is just the experience on one system,  which uses an EU3000.  The other system's Honda genset is an EU6500is,  which also has no issue with its Neutral being connected to system Neutral,  and also has a single-point connection from system AC Neutral to Ground (this occurs in the inverter's AC Conduit Box.

    Just my experience.   Believe that you are in Canada,   but believe that your basic AC power systems are quite similar to those in the USA.

    FWIW,  Good Luck,     Vic

    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH [email protected], 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • new2PVnew2PV Solar Expert Posts: 305 ✭✭
    Thanks, Vic so using the house bond to ground the neutral will not fry the inverter in the generator as some members here are saying?
    XW6848 inverter with 2 X mppt 60 150 CC , with Canadian solar 260Watt panels 2 x 3.5 kw array
  • VicVic Solar Expert Posts: 3,145 ✭✭✭✭

    Hi new2..,


    I cannot guarantee anything,   really.


    The two EU3000is gensets here have NOT been damaged by connecting the genset Neutral to the main system Neutral buss,  and the genset Ground to the main Ground in the AC Conduit box of the system.

    Each of the Honda EU3000 manuals state that the Ground of the outlets and the genset frame are connected.   Neither of these manuals show a bond between the genset Neutral and genset Ground in the schematic diagram.


    The manual for the oldest 3000 STATES that there is NO connection between genset ground and genset Neutral.


    The above,  and my personal experience in connecting two different 3000s into two different off-grid power systems has resulted in NO discernible poor operation,  harm or damage to either genset,  or power system.


    This is ALL that I am saying.   Additionally,  have used a Honda EU6500is on one of these power systems,  also with its Ground and Neutral connections tied to the appropriate busses of the power system,  and there has been no discernible harm/damage/degraded operation,  either.


    The oldest EU3000 is about 11 years old.  The newest one is about 6 - 7 years old.  Cannot say what may have changed verses more recent units,  and cannot say just what might be different in units made for your country (Canada,  I believe),  and units made for the USA (assume essentially NO differences between US and Canada units).


    That is all,   Good Luck,    Vic

    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH [email protected], 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • new2PVnew2PV Solar Expert Posts: 305 ✭✭
    edited November 2015 #9
    That is good news Vic, and thanks again for sorting this out, damage to the generator inverter would be a costly mistake! Now the only thing that gets me worried is Chirs Olson stated that he measured a 100A in-rush current to the psx-240 transformer, and that it would not work with out overloading the inverter on a 2000series Honda, I am hoping it is not a problem on the eu3000 or I may have to look into some kind of soft start device inline to the transformer, but this is adding more clutter to the whole system...Not sure I want to go this route.
    XW6848 inverter with 2 X mppt 60 150 CC , with Canadian solar 260Watt panels 2 x 3.5 kw array
  • new2PVnew2PV Solar Expert Posts: 305 ✭✭
    Hi just to let everyone know this combination did work, only issue is i get the lights dimming on heavy loads, and the xw kicks the GEN out and goes on battery then goes back to Gen.  I think its due to the eco throttle there is a slight delay on the current out.
    XW6848 inverter with 2 X mppt 60 150 CC , with Canadian solar 260Watt panels 2 x 3.5 kw array
  • inetdoginetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    new2PV said:
    ... I think its due to the eco throttle there is a slight delay on the current out.
    I agree. The XW does not recognize generators that take that long to respond to current demand.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • new2PVnew2PV Solar Expert Posts: 305 ✭✭
    edited November 2015 #12
    What I can do is just keep the eco-throttle off and put a full 30 amp charge into the batteries and run the house with just limited power at the same time.  Its odd that the gen support kicks out the gen on a big surge like starting a motor, and then brings it back online? The psx-240 works well voltage apears to be stable between phases.
    XW6848 inverter with 2 X mppt 60 150 CC , with Canadian solar 260Watt panels 2 x 3.5 kw array
  • new2PVnew2PV Solar Expert Posts: 305 ✭✭
    I started to put a 4500 watt load on the inverter, everything went black as then power returned, any ideas what I am doing wrong? You would think that gen support would prevent this but I guess it overloaded the generator input, maybe I am losing too many watts through the psx-240?  I set gen breaker size to 2800 watts/.80\240=14.5 amps
    XW6848 inverter with 2 X mppt 60 150 CC , with Canadian solar 260Watt panels 2 x 3.5 kw array
  • new2PVnew2PV Solar Expert Posts: 305 ✭✭
    edited November 2015 #14
    Gen support is a total mess with this setup, even limiting the gen breaker size to a smaller setting, it still all shuts down in this sequence, with a bigger load than the generator ouput setting. Gen supports starts to support the load by using the batteries, as the load increases the gen gets disqualified, the battery current skyrockets to about 80-90 amps then the inverter shuts down,  then goes back to generator input then starts all over again, unless you reduce the load. :/
    XW6848 inverter with 2 X mppt 60 150 CC , with Canadian solar 260Watt panels 2 x 3.5 kw array
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,569 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Generator support with Inverter Generators is a very tricky thing,  With a conventional generator, it was predictable how the FQ and Voltage would start to sag with an overload,  Inverter generators don't have the frequency sag associated with overload, they just cut themselves off faster than anything else can respond. So you black out for an instant while the XW switches from charging to inverting.
    It's not the transformers fault or anything, just a new combo of parts that behaves in a non-predictable manner. I would think the AC current sense could detect the beginning of the surge, and I expect the sensors in the generator are a bit faster to protect the internals.
     Inverter generators have no surge capacity, there is no rotating mass to supply a stiff surge for 0,1 second.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,129 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It is not as tricky if you use an inverter generator that is sized to the system. It is ridiculous to try and do this with an XW that can surge to 12,000 watts or more. 
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • new2PVnew2PV Solar Expert Posts: 305 ✭✭
    In an emergency situation it will have to do, it is interesting when I had the alpha gen DC generator at 3000 watts I had no issues running large loads, a great setup, but no way to put a charge in to the batteries...
    XW6848 inverter with 2 X mppt 60 150 CC , with Canadian solar 260Watt panels 2 x 3.5 kw array
  • new2PVnew2PV Solar Expert Posts: 305 ✭✭
    If I disable the inverter and just charge the batteries it works fine I can get a 2400 watt output continuous into the batteries.
    XW6848 inverter with 2 X mppt 60 150 CC , with Canadian solar 260Watt panels 2 x 3.5 kw array
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,569 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Try knocking your Gen Support Amps down to about 10.0  or even 5.0A  See if that helps things
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • new2PVnew2PV Solar Expert Posts: 305 ✭✭
    Mike, i have tried that and the reaction time is to slow. The xw disqualifies the gen on any surge, even with gen support set low. The gen support will work once the load is constant, but any wild current swings ie a freezer cutting in the xw is lighting fast to knock it out. I am thinking about putting some capacitors connected nesr the ac2 connection terminals? What do you think would it help?
    XW6848 inverter with 2 X mppt 60 150 CC , with Canadian solar 260Watt panels 2 x 3.5 kw array
  • vtmapsvtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    new2PV said:
     I am thinking about putting some capacitors connected nesr the ac2 connection terminals? What do you think would it help?
    It will not help and may damage the inverter.  --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • new2PVnew2PV Solar Expert Posts: 305 ✭✭
    vtmaps said:
    new2PV said:
     I am thinking about putting some capacitors connected nesr the ac2 connection terminals? What do you think would it help?
    It will not help and may damage the inverter.  --vtMaps


    What is my next option ?  If I don;t use the built in charger I the charge efficiency would go down the tubes estimating 50% wasted power from ther Gen.
    XW6848 inverter with 2 X mppt 60 150 CC , with Canadian solar 260Watt panels 2 x 3.5 kw array
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,569 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What sort of loads are you running, and what kind of generator is it?  Gas, diesel?  HP ?   Wattage ?
    I have a 6hp diesel rated for about 2700w at my elevation, and it handles 3 fridges cycling on and off, the microwave (1Kw), electric toaster (1700w surge when elements are cold) and 1400w blow dryer.   Watching the control panel as the loads max out the genset, tapers off the battery charging, and flips into Assist is pure magic. 
    BUT, the inverter gensets can't do any surge past their 2001 watts, their control shuts off, and the XW has to change from pass-thru to production,   A conventional generator has rotating mass, and that helps it "flywheel" through surges that cream a inverter,
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • new2PVnew2PV Solar Expert Posts: 305 ✭✭
    edited December 2015 #24
    MIke, its a honda eu3000is 120 volts 2800 watt continuous, gasoline 6.5 hp I think.  The entire house panel is the load, my inverter runs the complete home. Here is a breakdown of the items.

    stove top 2200 watts
    freezer 100 watts
    fridge 110 watts
    led lights average 6 watt bulbs with about maybe 5-8 on total at a time
    large screen tv about 55 watts avg.
    gas furnace 400 watts  stage 1, 750 watts stage 2
    toaster 1200 watts
    microwave 1500 watts.

    Everything is on during gen use, but I only limit one cooking item on at a time max.  I don;t think the generator is actually dropping the load, but the XW is lightnig fast to disqualify it, and this is the issue.  Even with gen support on its still not fast enough react to a surge, and everything dims or if its bad enough I lose all output from the inverter for a few secs.
    XW6848 inverter with 2 X mppt 60 150 CC , with Canadian solar 260Watt panels 2 x 3.5 kw array
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    When running the whole house do you still have it on ECONO setting?  If you do that may be part of the problem, ECONO has a relatively long response time compared to the XW...
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • new2PVnew2PV Solar Expert Posts: 305 ✭✭
    edited December 2015 #26
    Well, yes  I do use the econo setting, but I tried non econo mode and it did the same thing on a big surge.  On lighter loads it does help to be more stable, but if I kick in the microvwave it still is not enough to cover the surge.  I just got the XW ags hooked up and its working but the starter is staying on a bit longer and I can;t turn the settings on the AGS lower for starter hold time.  I am using a 12 volt run relay and its too slow to respond.
    XW6848 inverter with 2 X mppt 60 150 CC , with Canadian solar 260Watt panels 2 x 3.5 kw array
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2015 #27
    The local Provincial lottery here has a saying:  Know your limit, play within it!

    It would be a lot easier to NOT hit the system with those BIG surges than have to replace that genset....o
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2015 #28
    Probably your best bet is with a stand alone charger and let the Inverter carry the loads. The XW is over 10 year old technology in the way it engages the Generator Support is slow.  If you watch some of Chris Olsen's videos you'll see how slow it is, it won't help you much.

    http://forum.solar-electric.com/discussion/17098/demonstration-of-generator-support#latest

    You can look at your batteries and the cable size and connections to limit the voltage sag. Some Inverters are slow in the transfer relay transition. You can take two Inverter set-up's that are identical and one will blink and the other will make a load transition like a UPS.

    This might not work for you, as you said it made no difference if the ECO throttle was on or off, but it might help someone else.

    I had a A/C that gave me fits on a Honda. I came up with a way by remotely controlling the ECO throttle with 3 relays. one regular one 24v, one delay ( delay on make, 120v ) and a one shot timer. The one shot timer controlled the ECO for 10 seconds ( dry contact ), the Delay timer held the load for 5 seconds. You have to run a pair of wires to the generator to give a dry contact to the ECO switch.

    In Use:

    As the thermostat call's for the compressor, the relay will send the load to the delay cube ( hold for 5 seconds ) and the one shot activates, it would make the ECO throttle turn off for ( 10 seconds ). After the load on the generator had stabilized for 5 seconds the one shot would switch the ECO on and it would go back to normal operation. Of course the times are adjustable.

    Before someone asks, I used 3 relays because the regular relay is 24v coil, if your using line voltage, you could do it with two, delay and one shot.
     

  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,129 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2015 #29
    While the XW is a mature product, it is based on digital signal processing and almost everything can be changed in firmware.
    The main problem is that being a hybrid it should have had an offgrid only firmware set-up. The XW tries to do both grid and offgrid and can't be optimized.  The secondary problem here is it is ridiculous for a large inverter/charger to try and run support with a small generator. It really is made to charge a large battery bank and support loads with a minimum 6 or 7 KW generator.
     I have used the 6500i and now the newer Honda without any problems for 10 years.

    The DC charger alone here in this XW is 140 amps @ 87% efficiency. At 60vdc there could be 9KW just battery charging. Add the AC loads and one would question why this equipment was chose for this application.

    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • new2PVnew2PV Solar Expert Posts: 305 ✭✭
    I have went to a larger generator the eu3000is  could be used if you had nothing else, but its just not capable for large load, as others have noted.  Thanks for your help moving me to a larger gen.
    XW6848 inverter with 2 X mppt 60 150 CC , with Canadian solar 260Watt panels 2 x 3.5 kw array
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