Need help choosing a good charger solution from my generator.

The_Joe
The_Joe Registered Users Posts: 4
Hi everyone! My name is Joe and I recently set up a battery bank for my sister's school bus, along with a 2000 watt inverter. We don't have any solar panels yet, that is planned for soon!

We used 4 of these deep cycle batteries: http://m.oreillyauto.com/mt/www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/SSBB/27DCMJ/N0056.oap?ck=Search_deep+cycle_-1_3737&keyword=deep+cycle&un_jtt_v_thumb=3

She has a Honda 2000 series generator and I gave her an old automotive 12v 12a charger, which seems to take much longer to charge the 4 battery bank than I had anticipated.

Any affordable options for a charger? What should I be looking out for or be sure to avoid?

Thank you all for the help folks!

Comments

  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    Welcome to the forum,
    Stop! don't spend another cent until you have everything designed on paper.  You have already made a grievous error with those hybrid batteries.  You might get a year out of them.  When you design your system plan to buy real deep cycle batteries. 

    Batteries are the heart of the system.  When you ask what to do about solar panels, charge controllers, generators, and battery chargers, the answer is always the same:  "whatever the batteries need".  You need enough generator to charge the battery.  You need enough solar panels to charge the battery.  etc.

    The inverter and load must also be designed with the battery in mind.   Batteries (of course) store energy, but they also have limits to how rapidly they can release that energy.  You don't want to design a system where the lights get dim when the water pump is running.   Choosing the right battery for an application is the most difficult part of designing a system.  Once the battery is selected, choosing panels, controllers, wiring, fuses, etc is quite easy.

    The first step in designing a system (and choosing a battery) is to describe your loads.  That means numbers: how many watts, for how long, and when.  The "when" is important... an air conditioner running while the sun is on the panels draws less from the battery than running the air cond at night.

    Tell us what you expect this system to do... what are your loads?  Then we can choose a battery and design a system.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • The_Joe
    The_Joe Registered Users Posts: 4
    Well, these were the batteries that were available in the two days we had to plot out this system before my sister took the Buss to southern California. She is terrible with mechanical and electrical things, and as a big brother is my job to keep things rolling when I see her twice a year.

    I might have linked the wrong batteries, the Auto parts store had two options for group 27s, one duel purpose and one that was labeled as a deep cycle.

    We purchased four of the group 27 deep cycles.

    The largest load is of course the starting of the 6.7 litter turbo diesel engine, otherwise it mostly runs the fridge and a few household style lights. Sometimes a power tool may be used, or in an emergency a space heater.

    My sister called and told me that she is getting around 5 days of use before the batteries are too low to run the inverter. The only difficulty were having so far is recharging them. That's why I've come here.
  • Aguarancher
    Aguarancher Solar Expert Posts: 315 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2015 #4
    You really want to separate the house from the coach battery bank. They should be stand alone systems. Probably best to run the power tools and space heater with the eu2000. What inverter are you using? As vtmaps says, you need a workable plan that meets your needs and budget First.
  • jcheil
    jcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    If the batteries are being brought down to the point where the inverter is shutting off, you are KILLING (or may have already killed) those batteries. You'll be lucky if they will last another 6 months. You never want to bring them (or any deep cycle battery) down below 50%.

    2nd most important thing is that they be "properly" charged frequently. Shallow, continued undercharging charging is the #1 reason people kill batteries. I highly doubt the alternator on that vehicle is able to properly charge 4 of those batteries unless you have a huge alternator and run the engine 8 hours a day.

    Like the others are saying, you put the cart before the horse. So at this point, lets just "restart".
    And completely forget about running a space heater on the inverter. 

    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • Iceni John
    Iceni John Solar Expert Posts: 103 ✭✭

    Definitely keep the bus's batteries separate from the house batteries  -  you should never be unable to start the engine because your house loads have drained the vehicle's only batteries.   Also, most engines' electronic control modules won't work right, if at all, if the battery voltage is too low, resulting in weird CEL and SEL alarms or worse.   However, being able to also interconnect the house and chassis batteries is a good idea for use in emergencies.

    If/when you get solar panels you can either calculate what you'll think you'll need, or you can do what I did  -  just cover the whole darn roof with them!   PV panels on a bus, even if they tilt up to face the sun better, won't give you as much power as on a fixed installation where their angle can be optimized, so you really can't have too many panels!   They're as cheap now as they'll ever be, so just buy as many as will fit.   Just make sure they're not shaded by anything at all.

    Have fun, John

    40' Crown bus with 2kW of tiltable panels on the roof:

    Eight Sharp 255W, two Morningstar TS-MPPT-60, Magnum MS2000, Champion C46540 generator converted to propane, eight golfcart batteries, and maybe a small Exeltech inverter for the fridger.

    Southern California

  • The_Joe
    The_Joe Registered Users Posts: 4
    edited October 2015 #7
    There is a large switch that isolates the batteries into two groups of two when the buss needs to be ready to drive, and it starts off of those two.

    I am well aware that the alternator cannot get the batteries to 100%, I'm here asking about a good battery charger that can.

    The inverter seems to stop being effective around 11 volts.

    What is the best/most affordable option of battery charger my sister can plug into her generator and charge the batteries with?
  • Mountain Don
    Mountain Don Solar Expert Posts: 494 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2015 #8
    The batteries should NEVER be drawn down to where the inverter won't run.  That is damaging to an FLA battery, even the true deep cycles. Damaging as in life shortening. FYI, the low voltage cutoff is there to protect the invert electronics, not to protect the battery. The type of "deep cycle" sold in auto parts stores are not comparable to a true deep cycle like a golf cart GC-2 or an L-16, and others.  FLA batteries should never be drawn down to less than a 50% charge. That would be approx 12.1 volts, with 12.7 being 100%. However voltage readings are misleading. They can appear too low or too high depending on what recent discharges have occurred. 


    One of the less expensive battery chargers that can be recommended would be one from Iota Engineering. They do have their faults but compared to many others they function well. If this charger is to be the sole or main source of recharging a better one with at least 3 stages would be a better choice. Samlex is one, MeanWell another though I have no direct experience with them. The charger would be sized to suit the batteries.

    If this is to be a long lasting power system the batteries you have may not be the best. Have you any idea what sort of power consumption needs to be provided for? That is the place to start. Once the needed battery capacity is known the charger and solar follows. 
    Northern NM, 624 watts PV, The Kid CC, GC-2 batteries @ 24 VDC, Outback VFX3524M
  • Iceni John
    Iceni John Solar Expert Posts: 103 ✭✭

    When I was researching 120V battery chargers I considered chargers from Samlex, Mean Well and Cotek (who makes some of Samlex's products).   Just be aware that if it's a "smart" charger like the Mean Well and some others, it probably won't work if there's any load on the batteries while they're being charged.   Iota also makes affordable chargers in all sizes, with or without multi-stage charging capability  -  however, the reason I looked into the other brands was their lower starting current surge compared to the Iota, and if you're powering it off a small generator a low Power Factor and high starting surge could be too much for it.   The Mean Well has a very good PF, but its multistage charging program gets confused if anything else is drawing power at the same time.

    Whatever you buy, make sure it can correctly charge not only your present "marine" batteries but also any future deep-cycle batteries  -  it should charge at Bulk, Absorb and Float, and if each of those parameters is individually adjustable to suit the batteries, that's better yet.

    John

    40' Crown bus with 2kW of tiltable panels on the roof:

    Eight Sharp 255W, two Morningstar TS-MPPT-60, Magnum MS2000, Champion C46540 generator converted to propane, eight golfcart batteries, and maybe a small Exeltech inverter for the fridger.

    Southern California

  • The_Joe
    The_Joe Registered Users Posts: 4
    edited October 2015 #10
    Thank you for the helpful replies!

    I know that down the line I want to get better batteries, and I know 4 golf cart batteries would be much better.

    I had looked at the Iota 50amp version, it looked to be well sized for the generator. Some people said they had run 70amp versions as well on comparable generators.

    I have told her to plug the bus onto the generator and not the inverter while charging the batteries, so load on the batteries shouldn't be an issue.

    Is charging at 50+ amps going to further shorten the life of these already tortured batteries? At 50 amps, how long should it theoretically take to charge?

    As for concerns about the voltage drop and the engine, it's an old mechanical diesel, no computer. The only thing on the engine that requires electricity is the starter, once it's turning the injection is all mechanical. =]
  • oil pan 4
    oil pan 4 Solar Expert Posts: 767 ✭✭✭✭

    50 amps split between 4 batteries in parallel is nothing. Its like each battery having its own 12 amp charger going to it.

    Solar hybrid gasoline generator, 7kw gas, 180 watts of solar, Morningstar 15 amp MPPT, group 31 AGM, 900 watt kisae inverter.

    Solar roof top GMC suburban, a normal 3/4 ton suburban with 180 watts of panels on the roof and 10 amp genasun MPPT, 2000w samlex pure sine wave inverter, 12v gast and ARB air compressors.

  • jcheil
    jcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    The Iota DLS55 (12v) is a 55amp charger. I used one back in the day when I was on a 12V system. They work well and constantly will put out 55amps. However, you need to adjust the voltage (there is a small undocumented adjustment). From the factory they are to low for most FLA batteries. 

    However, as mentioned, the inrush current can be a challenge, even though it is only for a second or 2. I can tell you that I ran mine on a Champion 3500/4000 generator, which was really only good for 3000w before the waveform and voltage was too unstable. But, that Iota55 would consume a LOT of that generator. It can pull 15-17 amps continuous. So running it on the honda 3000 will work (remember that it is only a 2800 rated generator) but it does not leave too much room for anything else that is a big power consumer. Don't try to run the honda in "econo-mode" while using the charger in the beginning of the charging stage. After it gets into the bulk stage and the current drops (maybe an hour or so), then you can switch to econo-mode.

    It also has the "optional" 3-stage (sort of) plug in module (or you can buy it built into the unit). The external one if preferred so you have complete control of the charging cycles.


    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Another thing to consider, is an inverter that has a built in charger.  Those are often much larger (and efficient)  than a typical charger. I think the Iota has a power factor of 0.65.
    So you can buy fuel for the genset, or good quality gear. 
    http://www.solar-electric.com/inverters-controllers-accessories/inverters/maenin/maensiwainac.html

    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • oil pan 4
    oil pan 4 Solar Expert Posts: 767 ✭✭✭✭

    Is the Lota charger an inverter or transformer based charger?

    Solar hybrid gasoline generator, 7kw gas, 180 watts of solar, Morningstar 15 amp MPPT, group 31 AGM, 900 watt kisae inverter.

    Solar roof top GMC suburban, a normal 3/4 ton suburban with 180 watts of panels on the roof and 10 amp genasun MPPT, 2000w samlex pure sine wave inverter, 12v gast and ARB air compressors.

  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    oil pan 4 said:

    Is the Lota charger an inverter or transformer based charger?

    oil pan,

    The Iota chargers are stand-alone (switching power supply type) chargers,  only:

    http://www.solar-electric.com/batteries-meters-accessories/bach2/bach1.html


    FWIW,   Vic

    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.