back on grid

froggersix · August 2015

solar couldn't work for me and i'm on grid again and glad. i learned some things though.
rv batteries are a waste of money
cheap inverters are cheap
you need a lot of pv more than you think
if grid is possible it will be cheaper
nothing is free
most of all plan plan plan before you spend spend spend!

you should not have got rid of cariboocoot he was the smartest guy on the forum

doesnt matter now i'm done with solar.

solar_dave · August 2015

Think everyone here says off grid solar is much more expensive than the grid, and grid tie needs a good net metering plan to make it pay in a reasonable amount of time. Your right there is no free lunch.

PS I don't think the Coot was gotten rid of, just life is catching up with him.

oil pan 4 · August 2015

Do you not have any way to do grid tie?

SolarPowered · August 2015

oil pan 4 wrote: »

Do you not have any way to do grid tie?

Thats what I'm saying. Where is the grid tied NEM agreement.

softdown · August 2015

Yes....solar power costs 2-3 times more than normal grid power. Thats assuming that things went pretty well. Its an adventure!!! Adventure ain't cheap!!!

I read four solar books and have a couple years experience. Still feel like a newbie. Unless someone has a trusted solar pro around...I would "generally" advise against it. Unless they have unusual skills and knowledge.

But guess what? I'm going to get in the business a little. Just bought 48 panels and 1000' of use-2 wire. This area is exploding and most people have to go solar. Grid power costs a fortune to get...for most.

You are going to miss solar a little here and there....

simmtron · August 2015

To go off grid you have to adjust how you live. You need to reduce the amount of power you use. We love not having electric bills anymore, BUT, you have to adjust. We have replaced all lights with LEDS and do not have phantom loads running. We do everything we did when we had Grid electrics,just on a smaller scale. We watch TV on a 60" screen but only at night when we can use our Acer PICO projector (projector and laptop only 35 watts) the rest of the time we watch on laptops. Lucky we live in the tropics so don't need heat, and fans worked for a hundred years before people HAD to have air conditioning.

solorone · September 2015

SOLAR AINT CHEAP !

It is, or was a life style.. Maybe not so much today as in the past, but you have to be willing to make changes. I guess the best incentive we had was the price of $10,000 to run a power line. $47K in todays $. We paid $13.00 a watt in current dollar value for panels, and we were totally 12 V. as we predated Trace Engineering and lived with out solar for awhile, These were the days of 12 v TV percolators on stove top and little wire frames to toast bread that sat over a low flame gas eye, and the decrepit Dometic . I still have a very low serial # Trace 1512, the inverter that change our lives and 1000s of others, and launched Trace.

I do not want to know what I have spent to live off grid, but it has allowed " US " to live where we wish in peace and solitude, and I emphasize US, as solar life is definitely a team effort, both must be 110% committed to the life style.

It is a trade off, you hold the positive and the negative in each hand and let that guide you.

It is hard to believe that we have arrived at nirvana. A semblance of air-conditioning, inductive cook tops, using electric space heaters and learning to not worry about some switch or light left on. Our home is not much different than any grid home, a lot of LED lights, but big screen TV on all day and computers running, a gas fridge (crystal Cold) washer/dryer, both high end high efficiency, more of that hidden cost of solar life.

Solar, especially off grid is not for everyone, but really folks, it is so darn cheap to do now, I am surprised more are not doing it.

In reality, when folks seek out this old guy for advice, as several do each year, I always say ---grid tie.

westbranch · September 2015

Just saw this thread come up and some of the "POSTS READ" history seems to have disappeared... as It took me to the first post...

BB. · September 2015

When you mark all threads read--The ones that came from the old forum data migration did not keep track of the "last post read" for the threads... So, old threads that have a "new post" will start at the beginning.

Any newly read posts under the new forum software should drop you at the first unread post.

-Bill

softdown · September 2015

I beg to differ on Solorone's advice that modern solar is "cheap". The panels are a lot cheaper. Copper wire has gone up a lot. Batteries have lost their minds. Panels last for 25-50 years with luck. Batteries last for 6 months to 10 years...in the real world. Batteries are the real cost of solar due to frequent replacement.

Solar still costs 2-3 times more than most grid power....assuming things went smoothly. So many hidden costs...

BB. · September 2015

I would add that inverters/controllers may need repairs in the 5-10 year range, and 10+ years, start thinking about replacements for electronics (put some money in the bank for a "rainy day").

-Bill

solorone · September 2015

softdown said:

I beg to differ on Solorone's advice that modern solar is "cheap". The panels are a lot cheaper. Copper wire has gone up a lot. Batteries have lost their minds. Panels last for 25-50 years with luck. Batteries last for 6 months to 10 years...in the real world. Batteries are the real cost of solar due to frequent replacement.

Solar still costs 2-3 times more than most grid power....assuming things went smoothly. So many hidden costs...

Yes I agree, solar is a lot more $ than grid power.
I guess my view is from a more expensive time in the solar curve. I paid 235$ for a 250 watt 24v panel in 2014, I had paid 250$ for a 50 watt 12 V Arco, way back then. The new Xantrex cost the same as my 17 YO Trace 4024. Charge controllers were a new high cost, but well worth it. It did cost 75% more to replace my Rolls, but they have gone down a good bit, and copper right now is way off its 2014 high. Granted I would not want to build my system ALL over today at current prices, as I have 900' of 0000 buried from my array. I was very tempted to pull it all out for scrap, and run some smaller wire. I did say it ain't cheap.

A normal backyard setup should not cost very much in copper, with MPPT controllers. I live in a forest, placing the array away from the home site left it covered in oak shade, for there was no vision of air-conditioning or Trace engineering in 1983.

We can only hope panels will last 50 years. That was a suggested life span, we talked and hope far in the 80s. My Arcos made it 28 years.

solorone · September 2015

BB. said:

I would add that inverters/controllers may need repairs in the 5-10 year range, and 10+ years, start thinking about replacements for electronics (put some money in the bank for a "rainy day").

-Bill

Bill are we really looking at that short of a life span on the inverters ? Does it vary with brand? If so then the yearly cost is going to be a lot more than it used to be. I have had only one inverter fail, and it was a design/usage flaw, Trace replaced it 2nd day air. When I called in with the issue they were just becoming aware of the problem.

BB. · September 2015

It is just the nature of standard electronics... A combination of capacitors that dry out (electrolytic), thermal cycling causing cracks in solder joints/IC packaging, and how fast the industry is progressing (memory doubling every 2 years, faster/smaller/more efficient processors, etc. -- difficult to find spares to repair older units--after 5-10 years, most parts more complex that resistors/capacitors are no longer available new).

-Bill

oil pan 4 · September 2015

softdown said:

I beg to differ on Solorone's advice that modern solar is "cheap". The panels are a lot cheaper. Copper wire has gone up a lot. Batteries have lost their minds. Panels last for 25-50 years with luck. Batteries last for 6 months to 10 years...in the real world. Batteries are the real cost of solar due to frequent replacement.

Solar still costs 2-3 times more than most grid power....assuming things went smoothly. So many hidden costs...

I think its funny when people talk about how cheap wind and solar power is going to get.

Panel and inverter manufacturing will improve and cost will go down some more. But the cost of literally everything else is going up; wire, hardware, conduit, generators+fuel, labor, shipping. Then all the energy efficient and electrical saving stuff (fridge that is less than 20 years old, front loader washer, gas dryer, LED TV) you need if going off grid is NOT cheap and the price on all that stuff seems to be going up too.

bill von novak · September 2015

oil pan 4 said:

Panel and inverter manufacturing will improve and cost will go down some more. But the cost of literally everything else is going up; wire, hardware, conduit, generators+fuel, labor, shipping. Then all the energy efficient and electrical saving stuff (fridge that is less than 20 years old, front loader washer, gas dryer, LED TV) you need if going off grid is NOT cheap and the price on all that stuff seems to be going up too.

On the other hand, even cheap appliances are getting more efficient, and required upgrades (like LED lighting or inverter driven AC's) are coming down in price rapidly. I agree that aluminum extrusions (needed for racking) copper wiring, generators etc are going up - but there is still a significant amount of savings to be had in efficient appliances, efficient lighting, solar panels themselves and inverters.

However, I agree that it will never be as cheap as grid power. Utilities will almost always be able to undercut homeowners when it comes to generation costs. That's what they do.

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