Recommendations for combination internet and television packages for off-gridders?

lkruper · August 2015

softdown wrote: »

Thanks...that was my suspicion. The installer is likely an independent contractor who "had other things to do". He flat out lied and said the customer cancelled at my gate. His name is Abe and is out of Taos, New Mexico.

He should be disciplined. I'm not going to beg for service from a company that overlooks this service "procedure".

I would call Directv and ask for one of their own employees to do the install. Tell them what happened. When I complained they switched to an in-house tech.

BB. · August 2015

softdown wrote: »

Judging by this thread, the FTA boys are having all kinds of problems...

http://www.ftaprofessionals.tv/iks-discussions/23697-ecm-attack-status-page.html

As I understand--FTA satellite systems are different than what you linked to... Those "problems" are attempts (electronic counter measures) by Direct TV (and others?) to stop people from using hacked digital decryption cars/receivers from receiving Pay Programming.

Johann was typing about other Free "legal" services--I believe.

-Bill

http://www.tech-faq.com/how-directv-and-dish-network-stop-signal-theft.html

[h=2]Reducing Signal Theft by Blacklisting Access Cards[/h] DirecTV maintains a list of cancelled access cards. If an access card with a blacklisted CAM ID is utilized, you will receive the “Call Extension 745″ error message.
[h=2]Reducing Signal Theft with ECM (Electronic Counter Measures[/h] DirecTV and Dish Network engineers also broadcast hostile signals that instruct the satellite receivers to cause unauthorized access cards to stop working. These attacks are commonly known as ECM (Electronic Counter Measures). Common ECM attacks are:
[h=2]Datastream updates[/h] Datastream updates are new software which is sent to the access card to attempt to close previously discovered vulnerabilities. Datastream updates can be repaired by programming the access card again. [h=2]Tier Wipes[/h] Tier wipes are updates which are sent down to reconfigure unsubcribed access cards. Tier wipes can be repaired by programming the access card again.
[h=2]Looping[/h] Looping utilizes the ROM program in each access card. Instructions are sent down which causes unsubscribed access cards to enter an infinite loop. Which the card is stuck in this infinite loop it can not be written from or read to in a normal manner. Looping requires the use a piece of equipment called an unlooper to repair.
[h=2]EEPROM corruption[/h] EEPROM corruption is the most dangerous type of ECM. Instructions are sent down that detect unsubscribed access cards and damage the EEPROM on the access card.
[h=2]Reducing Signal Theft through the Courts[/h] DirecTV has taken up the practice of filing civil lawsuits against anyone it feels might be guilty of signal theft.
The accused are then forced to pay thousands of dollars in legal fees to defend themselves in court, or to pay DirecTV to leave them alone.

SolarPowered · August 2015

Dave Angelini wrote: »

Most all of the HD broadcast is UHF. There are a few like our local PBS out of Sacramento CA. that broadcast VHF and so you will need both in some areas. I never saw any difference in using a HD antenna over a standard UHF/ VHF combo. Both were excellent pictures.

The problem with standard UHF/VHF "analog" antennas on a DTV signal is the antenna's ability to receive channels under some frequencies, or less power to transmit a signal under that frequency.

On my Northern California Corning property when the vhf/uhf signal were broadcast in DTV, we lost half of the channels mostly due to the antenna's ability to recieve the correct frequency band, the frequency bands are much more narrow, but can deliver 3 times the bandwidth than a standard anolog frequency.

Most VHF signals are reduced in transmitance power by upto 90% in some areas.

DTV antenna's have a much broader frequency range than standard uhf/vhf antennas, and are much more sensitive to picking up low transmittance channels on the VHF band.

https://www.antennasdirect.com/faqs.html

softdown · August 2015

Thought about this some more. I spent 35 minutes on the phone with AT&T/Direct TV last wednesday. Apparently that accomplished nothing since nothing has happened since.

Pretty disappointing considering that I am an original customer since Feb 1996. I bought their equipment and installed it myself. They were that young.

Not exactly sure what you are saying about AT&T/NSA surveillance and solar power. Those who study this know that they want everyones data, all of it, all of the time. It is pathological. The trend towards not being able to remove cell phone batteries? Permanent audio and video capabilties that can't even be turned off.

I could see the popularity of NSA proof boxes to keep our cell phones in. Then the scandal when it is found that the NSA installed surveillance technology into these boxes. That is our likely future.

Tried to post an image and failed. Will try again as I consider it important.

SolarPowered wrote: »

AT&T wont install because of its inherent ability to probe data, and the data you use to harvest that data collectively, AT&T does work with NSA. Solar systems emit a mild frequency EMF, that disrupts the l;ow voltage transmission patterns they need to collect the data streams. EMF causes intermittent interference to the signals that AT&T wants.

As well if you have wireless cable boxes that use cisco systems wifi apparently it bogs the bandwidth and transmission signals to those receivers.

AT&T does however have this ambiguous nature about the way they conduct business. They are in the business of sellign you a package some way, some how, probably why they acquired DirecTV.

In my area, AT&T does install for many of my clients that have solar, they do give disclaimer of the service interruption caused by solar emf, and how it affects wifi transmission.

Dave Angelini · August 2015

SolarPowered wrote: »

The problem with standard UHF/VHF "analog" antennas on a DTV signal is the antenna's ability to receive channels under some frequencies, or less power to transmit a signal under that frequency.

On my Northern California Corning property when the vhf/uhf signal were broadcast in DTV, we lost half of the channels mostly due to the antenna's ability to recieve the correct frequency band, the frequency bands are much more narrow, but can deliver 3 times the bandwidth than a standard anolog frequency.

Most VHF signals are reduced in transmitance power by upto 90% in some areas.

DTV antenna's have a much broader frequency range than standard uhf/vhf antennas, and are much more sensitive to picking up low transmittance channels on the VHF band.

https://www.antennasdirect.com/faqs.html

I am sure it helps them sell antennas! I would try a standard uhf/vhf antenna matched for the stations distance from the home and up high in the air. I must get close to 75 stations on a 100 mile radio shack antenna with full quieting and excellent reception.

softdown · August 2015

Know where I can get an antenna like this? I'm not feeling inclined to spending 40 hours studying antennas.

Dave Angelini wrote: »

I am sure it helps them sell antennas! I would try a standard uhf/vhf antenna matched for the stations distance from the home and up high in the air. I must get close to 75 stations on a 100 mile radio shack antenna with full quieting and excellent reception.

BB. · August 2015

Hmm... From what I have seen is almost all the VHF stations (2-13) have moved to UHF. Nationally:

https://www.antennasdirect.com/faqs.html

Q: Are all Digital Channels on UHF?

A: No, but currently (prior to June 2009), 91% of broadcasting DTV stations are on UHF. A few cities, such as Chicago and Las Vegas have DTV stations on VHF as well as UHF. While Many DTV stations are now occupying UHF broadcast channels, the plan will allow some broadcasters to move back to their original VHF or UHF TV channels once the transition to DTV is complete. After June of 2009: 74% of the DTV stations will be on UHF (14-51), 24% will be on high VHF (7-13) and less than 2% will be on Low VHF(2-6). For more information, please visit www.antennapoint.com.

Q: Getting VHF stations are a problem for me. I get everything else fine.

A: Many stations that have reverted to VHF assignments have dramatically cut their transmitter power, in some cases by over 90%! Some stations mistakenly thought they could save money by cutting their power while reaching the same number of viewers. In other cases the FCC imposed reduced power limits to stations that reverted to their old VHF assignments in order to prevent interference with adjacent markets. There has been a misperception among some station owners that while dramatically lowering DTV transmitter power, they could serve the same coverage area as analog, and this has turned out to be incorrect. Many stations who have reverted back to VHF are now finding themselves with significantly reduced coverage areas and fewer viewers after switching to VHF. Many stations realizing their mistake have applied for higher power assignments (or UHF channel assignments) from the FCC, but the process could take over a year. In the interim, a new high gain high VHF antenna, the Clearstream 5 will be forthcoming. This may replace on the receive side some of what has been lost. The Clearstream 5 has an expected ship date of late June 2009.
One potential problem with re-using low VHF (2-6) and high VHF (7-13) TV channels for DTV is the possibility of interference from other signals during certain times of the year. "Skip" may bring in distant broadcasts on the same channel and create interference. Low VHF (2-6) digital broadcasts are particularly prone to interference and is often hard to receive reliably, regardless of what model of antenna is used. Note: The physical size of low VHF and high VHF antennas is much larger than that of a UHF antenna.

In general, VHF and VHF-Low are much better for mountainous/hilly regions. The signal follows the terrain better.

UHF is more line of site--And compared to the early days of TV when there where only a few "second/third tier" UHF stations, the antennas were not optimized for the UHF range.

Today, a large percentage of the DTV signal is UHF and getting better (and/or amplified) UHF antennas can help a lot. Plus, since UHF signals are much shorter wave lengths, a "better antenna" does not have to be "huge" (unlike VHF-Low).

Add that the FCC wanted to sell off VHF channels to other (non-TV) services) that wanted the better coverage at lower frequencies, there was a desision to reduce both the number of VHF stations and sharing of frequencies in (especially) metro areas.

In my area (just south of San Francisco), most of the stations are now UHF. And note--The analog/historical station number (i.e., 2/7/26/etc.) is not (usually) the actual station channel these days--It is just a software mapping of "old channel X" to some new UHF channel Y)... In our area, ABC 7 analog is the only station that is still broadcasting on VHF channel 7 today.

https://transition.fcc.gov/mb/engine...rtpoint=94401#

    KTSF    IND    26-1    UHF
    KKPX    ION    65-1    UHF
    KNTV    NBC    11-1    Hi-V
    KPIX    CBS    5-1    UHF
    KOFY    IND    20-1    UHF
    KBCW    CW    44-1    UHF
    KQED    PBS    9-1    UHF
    KCNS    IND    38-1    UHF
    KTVU    FOX    2-1    UHF
    KRON    MYTV    4-1    UHF
    KFSF    TELEFUTURA    66-1    UHF
    KGO    ABC    7-1    Hi-V
    KCSM    PBS    60-1    UHF
    KMTP    ETV    32-1    UHF
    KICU    IND    36-1    UHF
    KDTV    UNIVISION    14-1    UHF
    KSTS    TELEMUNDO    48-1    UHF
    KQEH    unknown    54-1    UHF
    KTNC    TUVISION    42-1    UHF
    KTLN    IND    68-1    UHF
    KRCB    PBS    22-1    UHF

And, interestingly enough, the most "unreliable" signal for me is ABC 7 (probably the top station in the area). It is one of two VHF-Hi stations I can receive. When I lived on the coast (coastal valley)--I could only receive 2-9 and maybe a couple of UHF (analog) stations. (UHF stations, if I could get them, usually had lots of ghosting/reflections vs VHF (again analog days).

In the end--I do not believe there is any real difference between a Digital vs Analog TV antenna... The signal encoding should not really be affected one way or another as long as the antenna and amplifier (if present) are "cut" to pass the correct frequencies.

Antennas can be highly directional, or not... The idea is to receive the strongest straight-line signal from the transmitter and "reject" reflected signals that are off axis. If you do not have a rotor, highly directional antennas can be a pain (and even rotors are a pain themselves--having to re-point when channel surfing).

If you want to understand more about the (not very) technical details, the first link FAQ is quite interesting:

https://www.antennasdirect.com/faqs.html

By itself, transmitter power is not the only thing that affects your ability to receive. Quoting from "mtownsend's" post:

http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=1275

Watch out when comparing transmitter power. Low frequency signals propagate more easily than high frequency signals so it takes less power to cover the same amount of distance.

Low frequencies are also better at diffraction (bending over mountain tops), so they tend to do a better job of "filling in" areas that are behind terrain blockages.

As an example, take a look at the following two coverage maps.

Here is KABC's coverage map.
Here is KXLA's coverage map.

Both of these transmitters are on Mount Wilson overlooking the Los Angeles area. KABC is on channel 7 with 25 kW while KXLA is on channel 51 with 1000 kW. If you compare the two coverage maps, you will see that they both do an excellent job of covering everyone in the Los Angeles basin despite the 40-times difference in broadcast power.

-Bill

softdown · August 2015

Ugh...I live in a mountain valley...almost surrounded by 14,000 ft mountain ranges. Doesn't look good. The valley floor is about 7500'. My antenna is not getting "line of site" to hardly anything except the local town.

Johann · August 2015

softdown wrote: »

Judging by this thread, the FTA boys are having all kinds of problems...

http://www.ftaprofessionals.tv/iks-discussions/23697-ecm-attack-status-page.html

That is/was a hacker site and is /was not true legal FTA. The way I understand they stole pay channels so every hacker could see them......something like that.

Real FTA is legal and will not require to hack anything. I have been doing FTA for few years now and I have a 10 footer and a 3 footer . Here are 2 sites for true legal FTA forums, do not ask them to do anything illegal or do not ask them how to do something illegal or you will be banned for life and they may even turn you in.

satelliteguys They also have a dish network and direct tv section there and you may want to ask your question there also. Employees of direct tv and dishnetwork used to chime in and answer question there. Or go to '' free to air'' discussion or go to OTA over the air...regular antenna systems.

fridgefta This site has less members with a slower pace, but is also on top of topics and can be more personal. They also have topics like fta and when you scroll down they even cover some wfi and internet.

softdown · August 2015

Whats wrong with Dish? Nobody talks about Dish it seems. I think they offer both tv and internet with one dish.

Dave Angelini · August 2015

softdown wrote: »

Know where I can get an antenna like this? I'm not feeling inclined to spending 40 hours studying antennas.

Yes, Radioshack Colorstar. I would buy an inexpensive antenna and just test if you even get anything. It sounds like you won't, but you may want to try one. They even say it is good for digital TV. My neighbor bought one and it is no different from the same model I bought 15 years ago.

softdown · August 2015

Already tried a couple "enhanced" antennas. One is a Recoton wall socket powered unit with adjustable gain for UHF and VHF. I'll try it again.

The other I recently bought from Costco. It was USB powered and a flexible window unit.

Neither one is high end at all. But I hesitate to invest considering the condition working against me. In a valley surrounded by mountain ranges.

Can anyone tell me why I should not just get Dish and get both internet and television? HughesNet has a pretty poor reputation amongst its users.

My current internet has improved to about 75% working. Went from 3-4 minutes on to 10-12 minutes on. So I can get essentials done. Frustrating though.

Dave Angelini wrote: »

Yes, Radioshack Colorstar. I would buy an inexpensive antenna and just test if you even get anything. It sounds like you won't, but you may want to try one. They even say it is good for digital TV. My neighbor bought one and it is no different from the same model I bought 15 years ago.

SolarPowered · August 2015

softdown wrote: »

Can anyone tell me why I should not just get Dish and get both internet and television? HughesNet has a pretty poor reputation amongst its users.

Dish doesn't offer the awesome sports package that direcTV does.

I believe the other argument is that some of DISH's programming is in 720I instead of 1080P.

DirecTV claims most of their channels are all in 1080

Honestly though I don't see a difference in many of the channels between 720 and 1080, it all looks the same to me.

softdown · August 2015

Direct TV charges plenty for those awesome packages. I mostly watch the NFL, the NBA playoffs, March Madness in college basketball, a couple tennis tournaments, and I absolutely love the Olympics. The Olympics is sports before it is ruined by big money.

SolarPowered wrote: »

Dish doesn't offer the awesome sports package that direcTV does.

I believe the other argument is that some of DISH's programming is in 720I instead of 1080P.

DirecTV claims most of their channels are all in 1080

Honestly though I don't see a difference in many of the channels between 720 and 1080, it all looks the same to me.

bmet · August 2015

About HughesNet's Internet service:

I just went through their promotion at my ranch. I only got internet, and not the TV service.

It's great IF YOU ARE RICH. Their internet service is structured like a cell-phone plan in that you only get a maximum of 5 Gigs of data for $50, 10 Gigs of data for $70, and so forth. If you are only using a web browser and viewing short Youtube clips, it is fine. A ROKU is not feasible as 5 Gigs is ONE HD MOVIE. After you reach your limit they throttle you back to near zero. My AppleTV can't even verify it's internet connection when being throttled back. They like to sugar-coat the issue by allowing you double your gigs AT 3AM in the morning, but what good is that? What family is going to be up at that hour to watch 2 more movies? It's stupid.

In their 3 lower-tier price plans, they have 10MBs 'DOWN' speeds, but only 1MBs 'UP' speed. This isn't fast enough for WI-FI calling, or a service like VOIP (Internet Phone) to work consistently. At 10 down, you can hear everyone great, but the 1MB UP garbles your side of any conversation... it is not useable. Your internet phone needs at least 1.5MBs UP, and the bandwidth plan to achieve that starts at $100. The reason I harp on this, is that HughesNet will sell you 'phone service' at their 3 lower tiers ( 1MBs UP ) but won't tell you up front about the 'garbling' until after it happens to you (personal experience here).

They have other fees that can jack up the price, such as maintenance insurance. It's only $10 a month extra, and it covers the cost of a service-call (equipment replacement not included). Without it, you will be charged $160 for a tech to come out and realign your dish.

HughesNet is good if you have $140 a month to enjoy enough Data to watch 2.5 movies a week, and use WiFi calling. CAUTION. The HughesNet modem will not have wireless. It's basically a WAN, so you must supply your own wireless router to effect the 'Gateway' IP to manage your LAN. AND the installer is no help for setting up your internet. He/She is only there to verify signal strength (again, personal experience).

Lastly, the HughesNet system consists of a mid-sized dish. They won't mount it in places where you would expect a tiny Direct TV . You will need a post, or a roof to support this medium-sized hyper-parabolic.

softdown · August 2015

Good information. I have wondered why everybody seems to complain about HughesNet. I still need to do something since I lose my internet connection every few minutes. It is largely an exercise in...frustration.

With larger satellite dishes sitting on the roof and having power supplied to this dish, they will occasionally act as a lightning rod. Someones DISH satellite served to fry their homes wiring last month. Didn't get their inverter however.

bmet wrote: »

About HughesNet's Internet service:

I just went through their promotion at my ranch. I only got internet, and not the TV service.

It's great IF YOU ARE RICH. Their internet service is structured like a cell-phone plan in that you only get a maximum of 5 Gigs of data for $50, 10 Gigs of data for $70, and so forth. If you are only using a web browser and viewing short Youtube clips, it is fine. A ROKU is not feasible as 5 Gigs is ONE HD MOVIE. After you reach your limit they throttle you back to near zero. My AppleTV can't even verify it's internet connection when being throttled back. They like to sugar-coat the issue by allowing you double your gigs AT 3AM in the morning, but what good is that? What family is going to be up at that hour to watch 2 more movies? It's stupid.

In their 3 lower-tier price plans, they have 10MBs 'DOWN' speeds, but only 1MBs 'UP' speed. This isn't fast enough for WI-FI calling, or a service like VOIP (Internet Phone) to work consistently. At 10 down, you can hear everyone great, but the 1MB UP garbles your side of any conversation... it is not useable. Your internet phone needs at least 1.5MBs UP, and the bandwidth plan to achieve that starts at $100. The reason I harp on this, is that HughesNet will sell you 'phone service' at their 3 lower tiers ( 1MBs UP ) but won't tell you up front about the 'garbling' until after it happens to you (personal experience here).

They have other fees that can jack up the price, such as maintenance insurance. It's only $10 a month extra, and it covers the cost of a service-call (equipment replacement not included). Without it, you will be charged $160 for a tech to come out and realign your dish.

HughesNet is good if you have $140 a month to enjoy enough Data to watch 2.5 movies a week, and use WiFi calling. CAUTION. The HughesNet modem will not have wireless. It's basically a WAN, so you must supply your own wireless router to effect the 'Gateway' IP to manage your LAN. AND the installer is no help for setting up your internet. He/She is only there to verify signal strength (again, personal experience).

Lastly, the HughesNet system consists of a mid-sized dish. They won't mount it in places where you would expect a tiny Direct TV . You will need a post, or a roof to support this medium-sized hyper-parabolic.

Recommendations for combination internet and television packages for off-gridders?

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