Questions about "dry" acidless batteries

Steven Lake · August 2015

I've been doing a bit of wandering around the net lately looking for information on my next solar build, and one of the interesting ideas that I came across was an emergency "solar truck". Basically it's like your typical portable solar power kits like you'd take to the beach or out camping or whatever that's got the panel, batteries, inverter, etc all in a neat little box with wheels. A few guys around here have built some. Anyhow, one of the suggestions I saw, if using this solar truck for emergencies, was to use batteries that were apparently flooded cells sans the acid to make them work. Apparently if they don't have any acid in them they last pretty much forever and are good for long term storage of a portable emergency solar power setup as described above. Then, when you're ready to use them just add the acid, give them 20 minutes or so to normalize, and then you're ready for use. However, once the acid is in, their standard 3 year life expectancy kicks in and they become just like any other battery.

Now, with that said, is what I've read true about them, and if so, what advantages, aside from an apparent indefinite shelf life, do these batteries have? And for that matter, where do you buy them? I've heard about them, seen them mentioned, but I can't seem to find anyone, at least that I've seen, who sells wet cell batteries without acid or any liquid in them at all. Do they in fact store really long times without acid, suffering none of the normal decay and performance atrophy of regular cells? Or was someone just blowing a bunch of smoke about something that doesn't exist, or perhaps does but doesn't offer what they said it does. I'm really curious to know more about these, because if they do indeed have all the stated advantages and more, I might consider buying some to stash back as hot spares should I need them given that I do have the unfortunate habit of killing stuff at rather inopportune times. ^_^;;

PNjunction · August 2015

Hi Steve - the only dry acidless batteries that I know of are the small agm powersport types from the likes of Yuasa and so forth.

I'm not sure if Rolls or Trojan offer them as well, but they might be a special order deal if available at all.

While the so-called indefinite shelf life is appealing, know that since these are not "factory activated", and require you to put in the acid, they depend on YOU to do the ever-so-important first initialization / forming charge. Get impatient (like some motorcycle dealerships have done) and you have a poorly performing battery that needs replacing sooner than later.

Also note that the vent caps are sealed with a strip, and once you pull it, you must put in the acid and give it the forming charge. If you open it (or if you have a leak!) and delay the fill-n-charge process, then the plates oxidize, and the battery is once again a poor performer.

I thought about having a few on hand myself, but figured that in an emergency, either I wouldn't have the time to do the commissioning charge right, or perhaps find out that after a decade or two in storage, the temporary seal leaked, and my battery is oxidated. Hate to think negatively, but it crossed my mind.

BB. · August 2015

Do you have a link to these dry storage (Lead Acid?) batteries?

Regular "dry charged" lead acid batteries do age and have only about an 18 month storage life (I guess the plates are not really "dry", just "damp" from the factory).

Of course, then there is storing the acid (and mixing acid into distilled water for electrolyte) and having to do it in an emergency--May not be the most fun--But does let you keep batteries for XX years without having them age out on you (when utility power is usually reliable).

-Bill

PNjunction · August 2015

BB. wrote: »

Do you have a link to these dry storage (Lead Acid?) batteries?

Sure if you mean the Yuasa. Check out the technical manual starting on page 15 for the "bs" models. Um, that's "bottle supplied" as opposed to the FA series which means factory activated!

http://www.yuasabatteries.com/batter...=B168&vID=6505

To do it right, one needs to follow their guidelines exactly. One can see why many dealerships might just gloss over this before delivering a bike to a customer.

I kind of wonder if their mention of indefinite-shelf-life is a bit optimistic. My luck would be in 20 years I misplaced the bottle(s) itself!

I think the major players in the big arena like Rolls and so forth have these available, but only to certified dealers that can prove to them that they know how to properly fill and activate them before handing off to an end-user. The average Joe can't get his hands on them, but if one wants to play, then maybe a fully-documented practice run on a Yuasa might work?

lkruper · August 2015

PNjunction wrote: »

Sure if you mean the Yuasa. Check out the technical manual starting on page 15 for the "bs" models. Um, that's "bottle supplied" as opposed to the FA series which means factory activated!

http://www.yuasabatteries.com/batter...=B168&vID=6505

To do it right, one needs to follow their guidelines exactly. One can see why many dealerships might just gloss over this before delivering a bike to a customer.

I kind of wonder if their mention of indefinite-shelf-life is a bit optimistic. My luck would be in 20 years I misplaced the bottle(s) itself!

I think the major players in the big arena like Rolls and so forth have these available, but only to certified dealers that can prove to them that they know how to properly fill and activate them before handing off to an end-user. The average Joe can't get his hands on them, but if one wants to play, then maybe a fully-documented practice run on a Yuasa might work?

The idea is very compelling. I do not need batteries at my grid-connected cabin unless there is a natural disaster and then I will want them. I found the following"

Powersonic dry charge battery 35AH $75
http://www.batterymart.com/p-2011-07-29-battery-activation-and-charging.html
http://www.batterymart.com/p-ns40z-dry-charge-battery.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=NS40Z&utm_campaign=PLA&gclid=COHVgZ7Oj8cCFYhcfgodMtgN6g

Porsche 80 AH $200.15
http://www.ecstuning.com/ES1512375/?gclid=CMuR2aHPj8cCFdKFfgodw_wH-g

East Penn has an MSDS
http://www.eastpennmanufacturing.com/wp-content/uploads/Dry-Batteries.pdf

Rolls can be special ordered
http://support.rollsbattery.com/support/solutions/articles/437-activating-dry-charged-batteries

Apples · August 2015

I've heard about them, seen them mentioned, but I can't seem to find anyone, at least that I've seen, who sells wet cell batteries without acid or any liquid in them at all. Do they in fact store really long times without acid, suffering none of the normal decay and performance atrophy of regular cells? Or was someone just blowing a bunch of smoke about something that doesn't exist...

I hear you. I remember seeing at a buddy's independent BMW service dry lead acid batteries and a jug or two of electrolyte (like cheap boxed wine hahaha)... but that was years ago, and there's more to it than just adding the juice and putting them into immediate service.

I thought about having a few on hand myself, but figured that in an emergency, either I wouldn't have the time to do the commissioning charge right, or perhaps find out that after a decade or two in storage, the temporary seal leaked, and my battery is oxidated...

Indeed.

So with that said, if I were to go your route (and the plan I have is similar to yours: a small solar truck consisting of solar components similar to what I have in my camp trailer solar setup) I'd invest in a bank (two, or four... or however many) of Odyssey AGM 100Ah Group 31 batteries. They have a two-year guarantee to hold their factory charge! before they're ever put into service, then, after that I would expect another 8 years on a 13.5/13.6V standby float charge which you could do with one tiny panel and an (adjustable! for that particular float voltage) small charge controller. Morningstar makes good controllers in that category, too.... rather than deploy the 400W PV array that is also part of the solar truck/solar generator package just for that float/maintenance charge when the truck folded up and in storage.

The Odyssey isn't cheap; they're priced similar to Lifeline but they really are an amazing battery.Obviously they're available in different sizes; I only mention their Group 31/100Ah because I like the simplicity of the 100 amp-hour rating cuz I kinda suck at math. (kidding)

More on the Odyssey in an excellent PDF presentation: http://www.batteryplex.com/sheets/Od...n%20Manual.pdf

Steven Lake · August 2015

BB. wrote: »

Do you have a link to these dry storage (Lead Acid?) batteries?

I wish I did. As I said I've only seen them mentioned in passing, but hadn't found much on them myself. Hence why I was asking.

Of course, then there is storing the acid (and mixing acid into distilled water for electrolyte) and having to do it in an emergency--May not be the most fun--But does let you keep batteries for XX years without having them age out on you (when utility power is usually reliable).

-Bill

Yeah, see, that's what I was looking for was if there was a downside to them, and it does sound like there is given the other replies. As such, what would be a good way to have some emergency or "hot swap" batteries on hand without having to worry about battery decay and maintenance of unused batteries and all that messy stuff? Right now my solution to needing batteries in an emergency (less for disaster and post storm emergency stuff, and more a case of I experienced a moment of stupid and blew a battery in the calf monitor and need it back online asap) is to keep at least one ready to use battery on hand. Right now that consists of a small cart with 4 golf cart batteries on it setup to allow for 12v and 24v operation. But again, that requires keeping the batteries topped up, in a warm place, etc. My thoughts with the dry battery idea was shelve and forget until needed. But if such is not possible, then I guess I can just stick with what I have now. It's not a huge inconvenience, but the simpler and more idiot proof I can make it the better. Partially for my sanity, and partially for everyone else's safety. Especially since I wear the nickname "Wreck-it-Ralph" ever so well, regretably. lol.

PNjunction · August 2015

Apples wrote: »

.... of Odyssey AGM 100Ah Group 31 batteries. They have a two-year guarantee to hold their factory charge! before they're ever put into service, then, after that I would expect another 8 years on a 13.5/13.6V standby float charge which you could do with one tiny panel and an (adjustable! for that particular float voltage) small charge controller.

Just don't get the impression that *nothing* is taking place during those two years! That would be a worst-case scenario, and of course those two years could actually mean only 3 months in high-heat storage. Stored in a cool location at a retailer's place, you may be ok, but STILL, you are going to need to do several repetetive charges to get close to original capacity. Not 100% in the real world mind you.

That float voltage is also critical for Enersys (Odyssey) agm's. I recall the "float voltage wars" of years ago when some trickle charge manufacturers were moaning about the Enersys batts not recommending a low 13.2v for long term float, but a minimum of 13.5. There is a reason for that, but won't rehash it here.

Suffice to say, always remember that you'll need to be temperature compensated, and if you are going to rely on it for the ultimate long term, that means ON-BATTERY probes, along with some common sense monitoring, and recommend doing proof-of-performance discharges perhaps yearly.

I love Odyssey quality and have used them successfully in solar applications where a "dual purpose" so-called deep cycle was ok compared to the truly dedicated deep-cycle batteries. Don't limit your choices - do you really NEED the Odyssey's abilities if you are doing the typical long-duration low-current discharges, or will you be hammering them where the cost-benefit really come to life....

mike95490 · August 2015

What about Lithium LFP batteries, Low self discharge, long shelf life if not cycled, store at 50% charge .....

Apples · August 2015

^ ^ ^LiFePO? Lithium iron Phosphate? I'd like to try them when I might afford them!

PNjunction

Just don't get the impression that *nothing* is taking place during those two years! That would be a worst-case scenario, and of course those two years could actually mean only 3 months in high-heat storage. Stored in a cool location at a retailer's place, you may be ok, but STILL, you are going to need to do several repetetive charges to get close to original capacity. Not 100% in the real world mind you.

That float voltage is also critical for Enersys (Odyssey) agm's. I recall the "float voltage wars" of years ago when some trickle charge manufacturers were moaning about the Enersys batts not recommending a low 13.2v for long term float, but a minimum of 13.5. There is a reason for that, but won't rehash it here.

Suffice to say, always remember that you'll need to be temperature compensated, and if you are going to rely on it for the ultimate long term, that means ON-BATTERY probes, along with some common sense monitoring, and recommend doing proof-of-performance discharges perhaps yearly.

I love Odyssey quality and have used them successfully in solar applications where a "dual purpose" so-called deep cycle was ok compared to the truly dedicated deep-cycle batteries. Don't limit your choices - do you really NEED the Odyssey's abilities if you are doing the typical long-duration low-current discharges, or will you be hammering them where the cost-benefit really come to life....

A sincere thanks for this reply! Yes, I do realize the scenario I painted is fantastic, but Odyssey makes the claim. Now I wouldn't expect their internal chemistry their 99.99% pure virgin lead plates to remain forever-new... and I also believe in monitoring and exercising a battery (to maintain it's "elasticity"? so to speak...) I'd love to hear more, or be pointed in the direction of some of that older "float voltage wars" info as I am still "new" enough to find this sort of thing fascinating to a degree.... either way, thanks again for your knowledgeable reply.

limitless369 · May 2019

been working on this issue for a startup

Questions about "dry" acidless batteries

Comments

Categories