Morningstar, Outback, Midnite?

jimindenver · March 2015

It's time to upgrade the RV's system for mounting. The little Eco-worthy 20a controllers have been great and done what they should but they don't have the features I want in a mounted system. All three listed are in the same price range.

The Morningstar TS-MPPT-60 is the least expensive until you add a display.

The Outback Flexmax 80 comes in between the with and without price of the Morningstar.

The Midnite Classic is as expensive as the Morningstar but say I can order the Wizbang for free.

So what is the best bang for the buck here?

Thank you.

westbranch · March 2015

Please give us a full description of what the other components are, the data you want to get from the system and the answer should be forthcoming..

jimindenver · March 2015

The only thing set in stone so far is three 250w poly panels. I'm working out what batteries will fit in what compartment and not throw the rig out of balance. As for data, Ease of set up is important. with bad vision I'd rather do my set up on a screen than pushing little switches. I know that I'd be able to hook up a lap top and get graphs and such but generally a quick look at the display from time to time would be better. Ah's in and out would be nice but hasn't been critical the two years I ran our solar without.

Someone mentioned the fan in the Classic and outback, how it may not take well to being on the road and especially the rough roads we use..

westbranch · March 2015

OK, I'll guess that at 250W they are GT panels and have a voltage of ~30V and an amperage of ~ 8A. 3 x 8 = ~24A so what is making you look at 60A + MPPT CC's instead of the MidNite KID at 30A with a lot of the Classics features? http://www.midnitesolar.com/

jimindenver · March 2015

Because even flat each panel will peak at 15 mid day, mid summer where we camp at 10,000 ft. We tend to use the power then, even running a small air conditioner, so clipping that much would be bad.

30a is a odd number for GT panels. Right between one and two of them.

westbranch · March 2015

15 What?

What I asked above was:

westbranch wrote: »

Please give us a full description of what the other components are

So, again guessing, from the scant details you just gave, the PV s are ''nominal 12V "panels...right?

Then KID will handle more than 30A input, it just caps the out put at 30A...

jimindenver · March 2015

No no, you were right the first time. 250w GT 37 Voc, 8.3a Isc. and the 15 was what amps were coming out of the Eco-worthy 20a MPPT controller that I did a review on here a few years back using a 230w Schott poly.

Putting 750w on a KId 12v or GT would seem quite a waste. I understand over paneling but that's nearly twice the watts the Kid calls for. I really thought it would be the Classic for the price and being the most updated controller, but it's been pointed out to me that both the Outback and the Midnite have fans that may not appreciate the wash boards and light 4x4 trails we use. That leaves the Morningstar in the running and luckily I still have a computer around here someplace with a serial port on it.

So that was the purpose of the question, to root out anything that would make one of them unacceptable. It could have been lack of features, limited capabilities or in this case as simple as a fan.

Thanks.

westbranch · March 2015

Ya, 3 x 250W is too much wasted with a KID, did you buy them already? at 2 in series or parallel, it is just a bit over paneled. If they were a bit smaller there would be no waste, IFF you get max output which you usually don't on an average day...

Iceni John · March 2015

Three or four grid-tie panels is a good match for a Morningstar TS-MPPT-60 in a 12-volt installation. It should be able to nicely charge four golfcart batteries in series and parallel (about 450 Ah at 12 V) - four panels will charge them at close to the ideal 13% rate. However, how you mount your panels and park your vehicle will greatly determine the panels' output. One big advantage of a fanless design of charge controller is that the inevitable dust associated with RVing will not affect it, unlike fan-cooled units that may have a greater risk of failure in those conditions. If your panels' voltage to the CC is about twice the CC's output, the CC will run cooler than if the panels were in series - a Morningstar CC can be over 95% efficient when doing this. Just use fat cables, well-crimped lugs, short cable runs, and good fuses or CBs.

jimindenver · March 2015

Dust is a very good point considering the Rockies are not near as lush as the pine trees make them look from a distance. Just walking our three schnauzers raises enough dust that you'd think a herd of buffalo were crossing the plains.

I can get three 60 cell panels or two 72 cell panels up on the roof with no shading issues. I hadn't thought of heat as a issue in series but rather shade tolerance and controller efficiency. I thought it was here I read that the conversion from the 100v+ Voc to a 12v system was less efficient.

Batteries are still being worked out.

westbranch · March 2015

jimindenver wrote: »

the conversion from the 100v+ Voc to a 12v system was less efficient.

the smaller the difference between the input volatge and the output voltage the better the efficiency ie 17V to 12V vs 68V to 12V

BB. · March 2015

Yes, 100 Volts Vmp to 12 volt battery bank charging, MPPT controllers are less efficient (maybe difference between ~98% efficient vs 93% efficient (some vendors do list the efficiency curves for various configurations).

However, you have the problem of sending 17.5 volts a long distance to charge a 12 volt battery bank.

At times, you have to bite the bullet and have higher voltage Vmp-array because the cost of wiring is just too much.

-Bill

jimindenver · March 2015

The Isc of the three panels at altitude will be over 30a, luckily it's only a 25 ft trailer.

Ethan Brush · March 2015

jimindenver wrote: »

It's time to upgrade the RV's system for mounting. The little Eco-worthy 20a controllers have been great and done what they should but they don't have the features I want in a mounted system. All three listed are in the same price range.

The Morningstar TS-MPPT-60 is the least expensive until you add a display.

The Outback Flexmax 80 comes in between the with and without price of the Morningstar.

The Midnite Classic is as expensive as the Morningstar but say I can order the Wizbang for free.

So what is the best bang for the buck here?

Thank you.

Since this is an RV, is cooling fan noise an issue? IF so you may want to consider the xantrex MPPT as it has no fan.

jimindenver · May 2015

The fan really was a killer both in noise and durability. I ended up going with the Morningstar TS-MPPT-60 and would love to say I've tested it out but I haven't seen much sun since getting it. Right now we have a foot of snow and it looks like I'll be tree trimming for a few days.

mike95490 · May 2015

I had a Morningstar mppt 60 with the display. When I added my 2nd array, I drank the Midnight coolaid, now run the Classic in Legacy mode. My 3rd array will have a Morningstar mppt 60 which in my estimation and daily logging, out performs the classic, and has no noisy cooling fan.
I have no experience with outback.

If you plan to use a computer to monitor the Morningstar, you don't need the extra di$play panel.

scrubjaysnest · May 2015

I'm in the process of getting my win 7 64 bit laptop to talk to the TS-45. Need to pick up a cable to go between the CC and the usb/serial adapter. As for dust and fan failure I don't see that as a problem after 4+ years of boondock camping the muffin fan that draws heat from the reefer compartment is still working fine. The factory didn't even mount it, just lays on the exhaust screen about 2 feet above the dirt. Noise on the other hand could be a real issue as the mounting point could act like a sounding board. Looks like the TS-MPPT 60 will be a good choice.

The serial adapter I'm using is a Belkin F5U409, it works well just have to see if any issues arise between it and MSvew and the CC.

Brlux · May 2015

mike95490 wrote: »

I had a Morningstar mppt 60 with the display. When I added my 2nd array, I drank the Midnight coolaid, now run the Classic in Legacy mode. My 3rd array will have a Morningstar mppt 60 which in my estimation and daily logging, out performs the classic, and has no noisy cooling fan.
I have no experience with outback.

If you plan to use a computer to monitor the Morningstar, you don't need the extra di$play panel.

Hi Mike, have you written any detailed comparisons between the the Midnight and Morningstar controllers? I have herd from others that the Midnight classic is not as flawless as one might hope.

mike95490 · May 2015

Brlux wrote: »

Hi Mike, have you written any detailed comparisons between the the Midnight and Morningstar controllers? I have herd from others that the Midnight classic is not as flawless as one might hope.

I have a ton of messages and screen shot comparisons on the Midnight forum, and finally had to use the "Legacy" MPPT controller settings, their "modern" settings don't work in intermittent lighting conditions.

BB. · May 2015

Here is the Midnite forum:

http://midnitesolar.com/Forum/index.php

-Bill

jimindenver · May 2016

I wanted to update this since I was here last. Work and health have kept me from installing the system on the rig but I have been able to do a fair amount of testing including in use at altitude. All of the testing has been done flat as they will be mounted so that we knew what to expect in the long run. I've also run mixed panel test, shading, over paneling and more.

The batteries are three Lifeline AGM 8-D's. The run coming down from the panels in parallel and the inter connects between the batteries, controller, inverter and converter is from a spool of 1/0 welding cable I picked up. It meant a 16 ton crimper for lugging but I doubt I'll see voltage loss.

In use even portable has been a joy. The bank is more for extended bad weather than over night use as we barely burn off the charge voltage with LED lights and a few runs of the furnace. That means by the time it gets hot the system is in float and able to run a 5000 BTU A/C, a hot plate pulling 470w or even a small bath heater while still sending the bank something.

Sizing the system to run the above items gave us another benefit. The conditions at altitude can mimic winter with short days because it is often cloudy by mid day up there. As a charger it can replace a lot of amps in 5 or 6 hours.

I did testing between two different mono panels and two different polys. That testing showed that Polys have the advantage in cloudy conditions and the choice doesn't disappoint. In overcast conditions we see as much as 25a coming down. That's more than enough to keep the trailer going sans the excessive loads like the A/C. Even if it did fall short it will stretch that big bank a long ways before I HAVE to firer up the generator. (haven't in three years)

So thank you for the help be it in responses or the info on the forum in general. Now that all the testing is done it is time to install.

xmineman · June 2016

I have had Classic 150 running in my rv for 2 years and roughly 30,000 miles with no problems. It is wall mounted in a sealed trunk so dust is not a huge problem. I have 3 255 watt panels in parallel on line for same amount of time. I have an additional 2 265 watt panels mounted soon to be online. This past winter rainy weather and short days made it difficult to make power around solstice on 3 panels. I intend on using a second classic 150 on these panels. My reasoning is that if I hook all 5 panels to the Classic it will be de-rated in hot weather and I would lose the 20 watts from higher wattage panels being hooked to lesser panels. Extra panels wattage would go to 2nd classic overhead and there would be no power de-rating at hot temps. I would pick up a redundant system to boot. I started out with 4 Trojan 6v AGM's but they got weak after 3 seasons. I have upgraded to 6each 2v DC1150-2 Fullriver cells. have added a fan for in the trunk to blow on the controllers http://www.amazon.com/Camco-42162-Solar-Panel-Refrigerator/dp/B002OUF554/ref=pd_sim_263_3?ie=UTF8&dpID=41gxn5p8plL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL320_SR274,320_&refRID=076DVS3QX0DVJCAV16P2

To help with shock I have done a couple of things. All panels are mounted on sorbothane. I use an air hitch and installed Dexter EZ Flex equalizers. The trailer does not get all beat up anymore, good idea, I think, for almost 90 square foot of panels on the roof.
As far as wire costs go heavy as you can. 6awg wire is roughly $0.50 per ft. a 40' run will only cost you $40.00 . why go cheap on a detail when you've got the best?

Morningstar, Outback, Midnite?

Comments

Categories