Help needed on New Xantrex XW4024 installation.

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90cummins
90cummins Solar Expert Posts: 57 ✭✭
in Solar Beginners Corner #1
Yesterday I finished the installation of my new Xantrex XW4024 inverter/charger, everything went well and started up per the manual.
However I cannot access the advanced settings as the manual says I should.
I also need to check on the Firmware driver but I cannot find the correct site online.
Can someone give me direction??
Thanks
90cummins
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  • SkiDoo55
    SkiDoo55 Solar Expert Posts: 414 ✭✭✭
    #2
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    Re: Help needed on New Xantrex XW4024 installation.

    http://solar.schneider-electric.com/Do you have a ComBox or SCP attached, will need one or the other to get to advanced settings. Preferred would be the Combox. Firmware should be Version 1.07, hasn't changed for years.
    GT3.8 w/4600W Trina 230W, TX5000 w/5000W ET-250W, XW4024 w/1500W ET-250W, 4 L16, 5500W Gen. (never had to use) Yet!!
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  • Les Nagy
    Les Nagy Solar Expert Posts: 121 ✭✭
    #3
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    Re: Help needed on New Xantrex XW4024 installation.

    If you are using an SCP (System Control Panel) you need to push the three left buttons all at once while in the XW4024 menu to get into advanced mode.
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #4
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    Re: Help needed on New Xantrex XW4024 installation.

    Yeah, it's the " At Once " thats is tricky to do. It may take you a few tries to get it right. It would help if all three fingers were the same length.
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  • 90cummins
    90cummins Solar Expert Posts: 57 ✭✭
    #5
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    Re: Help needed on New Xantrex XW4024 installation.

    I have the SCP and I did get into the advanced settings finally.
    I found the website for firmware down loads and I checked my firmware which is 1.06

    Thank you for your help.
    I’ll be back for sure for more advice, thanks
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  • 90cummins
    90cummins Solar Expert Posts: 57 ✭✭
    #6
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    Re: Help needed on New Xantrex XW4024 installation.

    Finished the installation of my Xantrex XW4024 and I could not be happier for the choice I made with thanks to those that recommended it.
    The system is so versatile (smart)!
    I've been testing it lately to make sure it functions properly. I installed the XW SCP remote and set it up for my batteries and generator.
    I set the Gen Assist to engage at 3100 watts as my Generac XL4000 voltage starts to droop over 3.5kw.
    I can't say enough about the inverter.

    My batteries on the other hand I'm really disappointed in.
    I purchased 4 New Trojan L16RE-B's using Trojans battery sizing calculator tool.
    My essential needs are 400 watts for heat then the fridge, freezer & misc. lights, 700 to 800 watts typically but no more than 1kw. According to Trojans calculator with a desired DOD of 10% they should carry a 1kw load for 5 hours.
    Last night I ran a test starting with the batteries on a float charge of 26.4 volts and at 51 degrees.
    I started the test keeping the load between 700 & 1000 watts load and the system shut down after 110 minutes due to low voltage of 24v.
    After setting idle for 70 minutes the voltage rose to 24.9v indicating 20% DOD??? so I lowered the LBCO to 22v and resumed test.
    As soon as I turned the load on the voltage went from 24.9 to 23.2 with a 1049 watt load I stopped the test after 28 minutes voltage was 23.1v.
    Either the batteries are defective or the calculator tool is wrong or I’m missing something here.
    I checked the specific gravity when I purchased them and it was within spec (in the middle of the green) for all cells and they have been on a float charge since I bought them. I also performed an equalization charge a week ago before load testing them.
    My charger is set per Trojans recommendations;
    Absorb 28.8v @ 180 minutes
    Float 26.4v
    Equalization 30.96v
    The specific gravity per Trojan should be 1.280
    I just checked the SG while on float charge and recorded the following at 51 degrees.




    Cell
    1 12.4
    2 12.45
    3 12.45
    4 12.65
    5 12.5
    6 12.5
    7 12.5
    8 12.5
    9 12.55
    10 12.5
    11 12.5
    12 12.45

    Trojan data lists the batteries as a group as storing 8kw of power.
    So 2 hours with a 1kw load would be approx. 2kw of battery power consumption.
    Knowing this it appears Trojans calculator is in error and their recommendations are wrong.
    I’ve learned quite a lot lately but there is so much more I need to know!!
    Your input would be appreciated.
    Thanks 90cummins
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #7
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    Re: Help needed on New Xantrex XW4024 installation.

    What type of cables are you using to connect the inverter to the battery bank, and how long is the cable?

    Also you understand that 700 watts is likely drawing 770-800 watts from the battery bank after the inverter's efficiencies in converting the DC to AC? also the inverter draws 30 watts or so it's self.

    How are you 'float' charging these?
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #8
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    Re: Help needed on New Xantrex XW4024 installation.

    Same thing I posted in the last post when you asked.

    " Your Batteries are new, they will take 30-100 cycles to get the plates formed before they reach their full capacity, until then you'll get more voltage drop and erratic capacity. You'll also get weird SG levels and charging. Right now they could be at say 75% capacity and after you apply their temperature they could be at a true capacity of 50% +/-. A lot of people would never notice this, but it really shows when you have new batteries with a winter start up. "
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  • 90cummins
    90cummins Solar Expert Posts: 57 ✭✭
    #9
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    Re: Help needed on New Xantrex XW4024 installation.

    Not looking to argue but the battery manufacture (Trojan) makes no mention of a (break-in) procedure. When someone makes a purchase based on Mfg. recommendations it should perform as stated.
    Trojan never mentions a mandatory break-in process to attain full rated capacity. It was not mentioned anywhere in their literature or during the purchase that's neglect.
    One of the contradictions I noticed with their calculator is that these batteries should support 1kw for 20 hours! That's 20kw of energy!
    Trojan states each L16RE-B is 2.2kw or 8.8 kw for my pack.
    I appears to me their calculator is wrong. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
    I'm noticing these contradictions now because of the issues I'm having.
    Based on my test I used no more than 2kw before my system shut down the first time.
    That's perhaps 25% of the energy content.
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  • 90cummins
    90cummins Solar Expert Posts: 57 ✭✭
    #10
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    Re: Help needed on New Xantrex XW4024 installation.

    Mt cables are 4/0 cable with over 2000 wire strands.
    I recorded no more than .1 volt drop across the battery versus the inverter input lugs.
    There are no high resistance connections (no heat generation). When I ended the test and turned the utility power on the charging amperage went up to 144 amps @ 28.6 volts, on the AC utility side the load was 4.8kw AC while charging.
    Again there were no points of resistance that caused heat.
    I also understand there is a loss in the inverter DC to AC conversion and even that is accounted for in the Trojan calculator.
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #11
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    Re: Help needed on New Xantrex XW4024 installation.
    90cummins wrote: »
    Not looking to argue but the battery manufacture (Trojan) makes no mention of a (break-in) procedure. When someone makes a purchase based on Mfg. recommendations it should perform as stated.
    Trojan never mentions a mandatory break-in process to attain full rated capacity. It was not mentioned anywhere in their literature or during the purchase that's neglect.
    One of the contradictions I noticed with their calculator is that these batteries should support 1kw for 20 hours! That's 20kw of energy!
    Trojan states each L16RE-B is 2.2kw or 8.8 kw for my pack.
    I appears to me their calculator is wrong. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
    I'm noticing these contradictions now because of the issues I'm having.
    Based on my test I used no more than 2kw before my system shut down the first time.
    That's perhaps 25% of the energy content.
    It's a Fact, doesn't matter if they mentioned it or not.
    c. What to Expect from your Trojan Battery
    îî It is expected that a new battery will need time to provide full, peak capacity. Trojan batteries take
    between 50 – 100 cycles to work up to providing full, Amp-hour capacity.
    îî When operating batteries at temperatures below 80°F (27°C) they will deliver less than the rated
    capacity. For example at 0°F (-18°C) the battery will deliver 50% of its capacity.

    http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/TRJN0169_UsersGuide.pdf
    .

    Attachment not found.
    .
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #12
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    Re: Help needed on New Xantrex XW4024 installation.

    Your measured voltage drop doesn't include what amperage you were running, the cable length is a factor in the cable sizing. Likely your fine with 4/0 cable unless your traveling a long distance, now to what your seeing by looking at the voltage...

    The SG's you have posted are not inconsistent with the batteries being at 80% SOC, SO we need to look at other issues.

    Voltage under load will always be lower than voltage with out a load, Sort of like solar panels VOC vs VMP. When you hooked your battery bank back up and you saw the voltage drop...

    You had a battery at 80% of capacity or about 370 amps x .8 = 296 amps capacity at a 20 hr rate. You applied a load of 1049 watt AC load (plus the inverter inefficiency?) or 1049 ÷ 24 = 44 amps or near 15% of the remaining capacity or greater than 1/8th of the remaining capacity! This is the combined reason for the dramatic voltage drop.

    Worse if you look at it as a 8 hr rate the capacity (when full) of your battery bank would be around 320 amp hour and you had drawn it down to 80% already. So the capacity was 256 amp hour remaining, now the 44 amp draw becomes an even higher %... Throw in a 90% conversion rate if the wattage drawn is in AC and another 30 watts of inverter use...

    You have a pretty large inverter for the battery bank. Is the heater the fish tanks?
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • 90cummins
    90cummins Solar Expert Posts: 57 ✭✭
    #13
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    Re: Help needed on New Xantrex XW4024 installation.

    I’ve never believed everything I’ve been told just because someone said it was so, if I didn’t understand it I looked for information to support or dis-prove a point. You need to be like that in engineering.
    Now you have made your point with information!
    Thank you for sharing this.
    This is the first I’ve heard of this, can anyone explain why this is not mentioned anywhere in Trojans website? It would seem to be important information to someone like me building an emergency backup system.
    Another question for you;
    Could you go to Trojan’s battery size calculator in their renewable energy section and tell me what I’m doing wrong using their calculator.
    When I put in the following parameters;
    24v system
    Flooded batteries
    50% DOD
    1 day autonomy
    1000 watt load for 24 hours
    It recommends (4) L16RE-B

    Thanks for the information
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #14
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    Re: Help needed on New Xantrex XW4024 installation.

    This is what I got;
    Attachment not found.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • 90cummins
    90cummins Solar Expert Posts: 57 ✭✭
    #15
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    Re: Help needed on New Xantrex XW4024 installation.

    Photowhit
    My cables are approx. 7 feet each and within 12 inches of being equal in length with a switch and 200 amp fuse in the positive cable.
    The DC load was 53.6A at 23.2V 1243 watt DC load when I measured the V drop of 0.1V

    It's good to know the SG's are ok I was concerned I damaged the batteries.
    I understand the voltage under load will be lower but being new to this I don't know how much to expect.
    My heater is a 1/4 hp motor running a squirrel cage blower on my wood furnace.
    I just checked my battery voltage which is 26.1V after being at rest for 8 hours.
    It is becoming apparent (I think) that my battery bank may be undersized, but what bothers me is that the Trojan battery size calculator recommends these batteries to support a load of 1KW for 24 hours.
    What’s important is that I have an operational system that will support me for 2 hours or so giving me time to get my gas/diesel generator running. I can always add an additional battery bank.
    Thanks for your input;
    90cummins
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  • 90cummins
    90cummins Solar Expert Posts: 57 ✭✭
    #16
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    Re: Help needed on New Xantrex XW4024 installation.
    Photowhit wrote: »
    This is what I got;
    Attachment not found.

    You input 7 days try 1 day..
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #17
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    Re: Help needed on New Xantrex XW4024 installation.

    Yep, I'm not understanding the calculator, 1000 watts for 24 hours isn't going to be 4xxx... Weird.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • 90cummins
    90cummins Solar Expert Posts: 57 ✭✭
    #18
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    Re: Help needed on New Xantrex XW4024 installation.

    I contacted Trojan about their calculator and they responded and told me that in step 2 the days per week need to be set at 7.
    After that the calculations came out correctly..

    Also I did further testing and it looks like I have 1 battery that is pulling my system down.
    After being on float charge if I engage the inverter I get a low battery warning within 5 minutes.
    Talking to my distributor about it and taking some data points
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