3524 Outback and Generator Do not like each other........YET~

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backroad
backroad Solar Expert Posts: 185 ✭✭
As per all the advice I received here, I purchased the Outback 3524 Inverter, MX60 and 3 more Kyocere 130 panels, and 12 395 AH CROWN batteries to upgrade my existing system. I've tried to run both my new fridge(6.5A) and freezer(5A) with out success. In the process, found out that trying to run my 5550 (8550 surge) generator on the 30 amp circuit also does not work. It charges great for about 5 to 10 minutes then kicks the circuit breaker on the generator. I did upgrade from a 16/3 cord to a 10/3 on the gen to the inverter, but all it did was keep the cord from getting warm. I did transfer the fridge and freezer to my Coach genset, but still had the problem with the gen and inverter.

Now for the big question??? I understand that there is an advanced program for the inverter to solve this problem, but do I have to have a MATE to do so?

Thanx in advance,

Dennis Webster
Bagdad, Arizona
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  • crewzer
    crewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: 3524 Outback and Generator Do not like each other........YET~

    Dennis,

    I believe we'll get this all sorted out, but we need a bit more info from you:

    1) Which 3524 inverter: the VFX3524 or the GVFX3524?
    2) Is the generator 120/240 VAC or just 120 VAC
    3) How many KC-130 modules in total now?
    4) I presume the Crown batteries are each 6 V nominal X 395 Ah?

    The 3524 came pre-programmed to operate as an inverter. However, adding a generator and activating other functions typically requires a Mate, I believe. In fact, you may also need a Hub 4.

    More later,
    Jim / crewzer

    Added on edit: My intial gut feeling is that the VFX3524 inverter/charger may be overloading the generator. The generator may be rated for 5550 W, but I suspect it's a 120/240 VAC model (~23 A x 2 x 120 VAC = 5,550 W), which would mean ~2800 W per leg. The 3524 inverter/charger (~90% efficient) can draw ~2,800 W when charging a "24 V" battery bank at full current (~85 A), although the full current may only be available at lower charge voltages. Additionally, the generator may have difficulty delivering full power on each leg in the AZ summer.

    The default AC input current setting for the inverter's charger is 18 AAC, or 18 Amps AC at 120 VAC. That's 2160 W, but adding the fridge and/or freezer (an extra ~5A to 11A or so?) might just be enough to trip the generator's breaker after 5 to 10 minutes.

    The Mate can be used to limit the charging current to the batteries by lowering the charger' "aac" setting. We can also talk about the X-240 auto-transformer... it could be used to combine the generator's 120/240 VAC outputs into single-phase 120 VAC, which would split the inverter/charger's load on the generator across both legs (and therefore both circuit breakers). You may end up having to wire up your system something like this: http://www.outbackpower.com/pdfs_wiring_diagrams/ps2acgenbal.pdf
  • crewzer
    crewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: 3524 Outback and Generator Do not like each other........YET~

    Check this out: http://www.generac-portables.com/service_support/owner_manuals/search_results.cfm?model_pw=1646

    The wiring diagrams indicate that the generator's two circuit breakers are rated at 20 A each - not 30 A.  :x  Unfortunately, this kind of makes sense since the generator's two single-phase duplex outlets are each rated for 20 A. Each duplex outlet is wired in parallel to a hot connector on the 120/240 VAC "30 A" outlet.

    Based on this information, it appears to me that the generator is the source of the operational problems.  :-(

    The Mate will allow you to set the inverter/charger's "gen in" max aac in to something like 16 A (80% of the breaker rating), and the charger max current at, say, 12 A. This will set the max aac in at 16 A even if you're running downstream AC loads as well as the charger. If the downstream AC loads exceed 4 A (16 A - 12 A), the inverter/charger will reduce the charging current to the battery bank to keep the total aac input from exceeding the 16 A limit.

    The charger's 12 aac setting will allow the charger to deliver up to ~45 A - 50 A to the 24 V battery bank, depending on the bank's voltage.

    If you want to use more of the generator's capacity and get around the breaker problem you'll need to combine the generator's two hot legs via an X-240 autotransformer.

    HTH,
    Jim / crewzer
  • crewzer
    crewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: 3524 Outback and Generator Do not like each other........YET~

    Another possible solution might be to replace the 20 A breakers with 25 A versions, wire them directly to the L14-30 connector, and disconnect the duplex outlets. You'd need to evrify the correct wiring size. This approach might allow up to the rated 23.1 A (2775 W) per leg from the generator, but the combination of the full charger load and the appliances may trip a 25 A breaker as well.

    The X-240 approach will work, but it's an expensive solution.

    HTH,
    Jim / crewzer
  • backroad
    backroad Solar Expert Posts: 185 ✭✭
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    Re: 3524 Outback and Generator Do not like each other........YET~

    All the information is wonderful and I'm really sorry I didn't get back here sooner. Being OFF the grid, means that I'm also on satellite internet and of course I'm having some trouble with it staying logged on.

    1) The inverter is a VFX3524
    2) Generator is a 120/240 and I'm using the 120/240 heavier plug position
    3) 3 - KC130 panels, 3 - KC 120 panels. Both are wired through the MX60

    6 - Siemens 90 watt panels that are controlled by a trace c-40
    3) The Crown batteries are 6 volt, 395AH...
    4) When I first encounter this generator charge problem, I did disconnect the Refrigerator
    and freezer from the house and ran them on the Motorhome generator for a 24 hours. Still had the circuit breaker problem. I've never had the batteries over 24.7 volts.
    I have considered changing the circuit breakers to something larger on the Generator. I also may be able to come up with the funds for 3 more KC130 panels, which I believe would be the limit for the current MX60, and this would probably be a large help on charging.

    My current battery voltage in the morning is down to 23.4 volts, which does not make either myself or the battteries very happy. During the day my MX60 shows over 26 and sometime 27 volts to the batteries and charging well over 20 amps.

    As for the Arizona heat, it's only been running about 105 to 110 here. :):):)

    The wife is now on disability, and is home all the time. We are only running one small swamp cooler with a 12 volt fan (till I get the larger one running). She tends to have the tv on quite a bit and also likes to run a 120v fan. This lifestyle change thing for SOLAR is a slow process so far, but we are learning. We've also been keeping the Hughes internet box ON with the Vonage phone, but even this is turned off currently. The only thing we are running during the day now, is the cooler and the refrigerator.

    Thanx a bunch..........
    Dennis Webster
    Bagdad, Arizona

    P.S. The offer of the COLD adult beverages is still out on the table.......:)

  • crewzer
    crewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: 3524 Outback and Generator Do not like each other........YET~

    Dennis,

    Yikes! High heat and poor health… a challenging combination!

    OK.. here are some observations and suggestions:

    1) My recollection is that you started with six each Siemens 90 modules and three each Kyocera 120 modules, and that you added three each Kyocera 130 modules. Configured as a “36 V” array (string #1 = three 90’s wired in series, string #2 = three 90’s wired in series, string #3 = three 120’s wired in series, string #4 = three 130’s wired in series; all four strings wired in parallel), you should have an array rated at 1,290 W STC. Considering your local “warmth” factor, I’ d expect the MX60 controller to be able to deliver ~37 A in bulk (MPPT) charging mode to your "24 V" battery bank.

    2) Adding another string of three 130’s will increase the array size to 1,680 W STC. Considering your location, I don’t think that’ll be a problem for your MX60 and the “24 V” battery bank. But, that’ll be about it for array growth.

    3) I think you’ll need to replace the 20 A breakers with 25 A models, and/or get a Mate to reduce the 120 VAC current to the inverter/charger.

    4) There’s still some flexibility in the 5550 generator. Specifically, you should be able to run the fridge, freezer, and a couple of fans from one 120 VAC leg while the other hot leg is powering the inverter’s charger. My take on the wiring is that both hot legs are connected to the NEMA L14-20 120/240 connector, that one hot leg is also connected to the left duplex outlet, and the other hot leg is connected to the right duplex outlet.

    I will get back down to AZ one of these days…

    HTH,
    Jim / crewzer
  • backroad
    backroad Solar Expert Posts: 185 ✭✭
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    Re: 3524 Outback and Generator Do not like each other........YET~

    OK, somebody please reach out and slap me up the side of the head. I know I did a bad thing, but I live about 60-75 miles from any decent city with electrical parts. In order to see if I can charge my batteries with the generator, I bypassed the two 20amp circuit breakers on my generator. So far so good, and nothing is smoking or on fire. Tomorrow, I'll go to town and try to find the larger breakers or at least something I can add to the generator that would work.

    I did get both my 12 volt swamp coolers working on the house and it's wonderful.

    QUESTION: What is the best way to get 12 volt power to my coolers from the 24volt battery group? I'm also going to add a booster pump and pressure tank to my water tank to get more pressure to the house. Currently I'm just gravity feeding with a very tall home made 6000 gallon water tower. When I installed the new inverter, panels and controller, I had to come up with some way to make the 12volt cool air. I used the old 12 volt battery charger..........It's an Iota 90 amp charger(says it draw 1500 amps) and seems to be working OK so far. I bought a 24 volt surflow pressurepump but I'm having second thoughts a trading it for a 12 volt unit since I already have the 12 volt existing, that is, if I can continue using the Iota charger for a power converter. Of course it does say power converter on it's label. I'm open to all suggestions at this point.

    Dennis from Bagdad........

  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Re: 3524 Outback and Generator Do not like each other........YET~
    backroad wrote:

    QUESTION: What is the best way to get 12 volt power to my coolers from the 24volt battery group?

    Wire the 2 swamp coolers in SERIES. (I'm assuming they are identical, ir this won't work.) Both will have to run at the same time.

    IDEA WITHDRAWN

    I know it works with lightbulbs, but sounds like some motors got cooked somewhere along the line. Mike

    Don't do this... Motors are not linear devices... One motor gets a little more loaded than the other, current goes up, since in series, its voltage goes down, which causes its current to rise.... While the 2nd motor, seeing its voltage rise will draw lightly less current, increasing its voltage... Pretty soon you will have probably blown out one of the two motors (either from over voltage on one, or over current on the other).
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Re: 3524 Outback and Generator Do not like each other........YET~
    backroad wrote:
    I know I did a bad thing, but I live about 60-75 miles from any decent city with electrical parts. In order to see if I can charge my batteries with the generator, I bypassed the two 20amp circuit breakers on my generator.


    How far are you from a new generator if you fry yours ?

    Maybe if you just tried for 5 min or so, we can forgive you.

    Are you running 1 charger off each leg of the gennie ?
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • crewzer
    crewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: 3524 Outback and Generator Do not like each other........YET~

    Dennis,

    I can't say I wouldn't have some the same if I were in your situation. However, I urge caution when running the generator this way for extemded periods. Specifically, the "5,550 W" generator's "Continous Wattage Capacity" spec is 5,000 W, or 2,500 W per leg. The inverter/charger's default load in bulk charge mode is 18 aac x 120 VAC = 2,160 W, so you may still need to look at running other loads from the other leg.

    FWIW, I'd not consider new breakers larger than 25 A continuous duty.

    HTH, and Good Luck!
    Jim / crewzer
  • richardg
    richardg Registered Users Posts: 7
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    Re: 3524 Outback and Generator Do not like each other........YET~

    Hi backroad....
    i am probably the least experence person on this board but i will tell you my story with my outback.
    i have a 3648 and when i was charging my batteries with the gen (5500watt costco special) 120/240 it would charge fine but if two things came on in the cabin say the water pump and the fridge plus some lights it would continue to load the generator untill a breaker fliped. In the invertor program settings i continued to limit the power settings i think to 15 amp and now when extra stuff comes on at once the invertor helps the generator and all is working great. I know this is a bit different that your problem but i think it has the same solution.
    regards and good luck
    Richard
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,476 admin
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    Re: 3524 Outback and Generator Do not like each other........YET~
    mike90045 wrote:
    backroad wrote:

    QUESTION: What is the best way to get 12 volt power to my coolers from the 24volt battery group?
    Wire the 2 swamp coolers in SERIES. (I'm assuming they are identical, ir this won't work.) Both will have to run at the same time.

    Don't do this... Motors are not linear devices... One motor gets a little more loaded than the other, current goes up, since in series, its voltage goes down, which causes its current to rise.... While the 2nd motor, seeing its voltage rise will draw lightly less current, increasing its voltage... Pretty soon you will have probably blown out one of the two motors (either from over voltage on one, or over current on the other).

    Unfortunately, you are stuck with either charging the 12 volt system from the 24 volt system using a DC to DC converter/charger, or getting the 12 volt power from another source.

    One option, that I understands works well, is get a second MPPT charge controller and hook it up in parallel to the other 24 volt charge controller and its solar panel array. The second charge controller can be set for 12 volts to charge the secondary bank.

    I would still recommend that you read the charge controller manuals (and/or call the manufacturer/supplier) and ensure that everything will play together correctly (you should probably make sure that both battery banks share a common negative ground connection).

    The two solar chargers will share the one solar panel bank. Of course, this assumes that you have enough panels to support both sets of loads.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • crewzer
    crewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: 3524 Outback and Generator Do not like each other........YET~

    I like the DC-DC converter idea (24 VDC to 12 VDC), or even a 120 VAC -> 12 VDC power supply to run the two 12 V loads. Another MX60 controller and another battery bank (12 V) would be an expensive and cumbersome addition. I'd think that money could be used to buy more PV and/or a converter or power supply.

    Some controllers allow for sharing a common PV array (See Morningstar FAQ). However, I've not heard of this done with a stock MX60, and, while I can't explain or justify why, the idea just gives me the willies.

    Good luck with today's projects!
    Jim / crewzer

  • backroad
    backroad Solar Expert Posts: 185 ✭✭
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    Re: 3524 Outback and Generator Do not like each other........YET~

    WOW!  Quite a number of items to answer to, so here goes.....

    I am currently a 120volt to 12 volt power converter/battery charger (the IOTA) to run my two coolers(which are both operating awesomely) and I'm assuming that I can continue this through to a pressure pump for my water supply in stead of confusing matters and having to come up with a separate 120/24 power supply(of course this would mean just running another cable from the batteries to the pressure pump)  just for the water pump and or changing the two coolers to 24 volt (YUCK).  Is there really that much of a draw difference between 12 and 24 volt when converting it from 120volt?  Or should I ask, Is it worth changing?


    The generator that I'm using is the generac Wheelhouse 5550, which has a surge/start up rate of 8550.  I did the test of bypassing the two 20 amp circuit breakers for about three hours with no heating of wires or any noticeable problems.  I was very fortunate and got away with this one time and will NOT do it again.  Previously I could only operate the generator for about 10 or so minutes and it did not matter if I had the refrigerator and freezer connected to a separate genset.  It appears that the charger in the inverter was just too much for the 20 amp breakers.

    How far are you from a new generator if you fry yours ?  One's about 15 feet away but need a new head gasker (195 Chang Chow diesel with an 8000 120.240 generator).  Next one is about 75 feet away in the MH.  and a third one in about 9 miles away at my son, the electricians hous.  I knew and know that my experiment was not too brite, and you should have seen the expression on my son's face when I tole him. 

    I was running the inverter/charger off of both legs of the generator, using the existing 30 amp 120/240 twistlock plug converted to a standard 120 male plug which appeared to one be a 15 amp.  Yes I know, slap me up the side of my head AGAIN.

    Yesterday involved a 75 mile trip to the big city of Prescott, Az.  I tried a major electrical supplier to try and find the same type of breakers (only larger) and could not come up with anything, so it was off to Home Depot.  I purchase a 4 position circuit breaker panel and a couple of 30 amp breakers.  There was nothing available between 20 and 30's.  Also picked up a 30 amp twist lock plug set up to use with my 10/2 wire to the inverter.  Hopefully, this should work and still be safe.  All of this will be tied together with 10/2 cable.

    I thinking I'll only have to use the generator, maybe twice a week for a couple of hours each, at the most.  One of those time will be on laundry day for the washer and gas dryer.

    If I can get Hardy Solar on the stick and find the parts they say they have, I'll be able to get my larger chinese diesel generator back to running.

    All you your help is really appreciated again. 

    Anybody have an idea of how much more solar would be required to run my 8 cu.ft. NEW energy star freezer?  It says it only draws 6 amps.........As I said previously, I believe I have room in my MX60 for 3 more KC130 panels, but I just don't know if this would be enough...........Thanx.........




  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: 3524 Outback and Generator Do not like each other........YET~

    "Anybody have an idea of how much more solar would be required to run my 8 cu.ft. NEW energy star freezer?  It says it only draws 6 amps.........As I said previously, I believe I have room in my MX60 for 3 more KC130 panels, but I just don't know if this would be enough...........Thanx........."

    that's not easy to answer. the problem would be the total watthours needed in one day to calculate the needed solar in one day. it probably draws less than 6 amps, but the startup amps would be much higher. furthermore, we don't know the typical runtime it would have as it will not run continuously. if it's for 120vac this is a job for a kill-a-watt meter. i'm thinking 3 would not be enough, but i don't have enough knowledge of the total wh the freezer would need in a day. a good rough guess from me would be 8 kc130s as 8pvsx130=1,040wx6hrs max of full sun=6,240wh per day/8hrs runtime=780wh per hour. 6ax120v=720wh leaving a 60w leadway for any losses. this is all guessing, though it will give you a rough idea!!!!!! :-o
  • crewzer
    crewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: 3524 Outback and Generator Do not like each other........YET~
    Anybody have an idea of how much more solar would be required to run my 8 cu.ft. NEW energy star freezer?

    Dennis,

    We can help you with this, but we need more info. What make and model? Also, the freezer should have included a yellow "Energy Guide" tag that specified the annual energy requirement... That info would be handy as well.

    More later,
    Jim / crewzer
  • backroad
    backroad Solar Expert Posts: 185 ✭✭
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    Re: 3524 Outback and Generator Do not like each other........YET~

    Just went looking for the "yellow energy guide" and it simply jump out and bit me. A lot like our Mohave rattlesnakes, which we have a BUNCH of. They are pretty friendly though. They wait for us to come home on our back porch. :)

    The energy guide say it comsumes 251 kWh anually and it's a Sear Kenmore, model #15949, 8 cu. ft and most importantly, It's black and is kept inside the house. Low miles.....only used about 10 days. Currently stored in the house..........................
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Re: 3524 Outback and Generator Do not like each other........YET~

    So the 251KWH is likely for about 30F, with ambient of 70 F Expect it to be more when in the heat you have. What are you keeping frozen ? Ice cream, or anthrax vaccine? (How cold will you be setting the freezer ?)
    Keeping it even numbers, I'd guess at 1KWH / day in the heat, even if you have swamp coolers going.
    Since you will have a sine inverter running, what would it take to go to 120V swamp coolers and avoid having dc-dc converters, or an extra charge controller & batteries for the 21V stuff ? Are all your lights 12V or 24V (with the sine inverter, that opens up the possibility of regular CF bulbs )
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • backroad
    backroad Solar Expert Posts: 185 ✭✭
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    Re: 3524 Outback and Generator Do not like each other........YET~

    The ice cream and frozen pizza's are of course a necessity.  Is there a viable market for Anthrax Vaccine?  :):):):)  I do hope to sometime stuff the freezer with an ELK, but I've yet to ever get drawn.  I have recently bought a bow to solve this, and so far I can't hit that apple.

    Everything in the place is running on 120v except the two swamp coolers and I was told that they were a bunch less draw that way other than going 120v.  There is a brand new (never ever hooked up yet) Master Cool unit on the roof that is capable of cooling about 1600 sq. ft.,(I'm currently under 1100sq.ft.) but there again I was told it was far too much draw on the solar.  With the MASTER COOL Unit already there it would be easy to get it running.  I'd just have to add the water pressure pump(there's another decision whether to change to 24 volt or just do the 12v pump) and pressure tank to get a good flow up on the roof.  I'd planned on using it some when I got the diesel generator back up and running.

    All of the light bulbs are of the low draw flourescent type and I've been looking into the LED bulbs some, but they get kinda spendy yet.  I do suppose that the LED's would probably last the rest of my life though.
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Re: 3524 Outback and Generator Do not like each other........YET~
    backroad wrote:
    There is a brand new (never ever hooked up yet) Master Cool unit on the roof that is capable of cooling about 1600 sq. ft.,(I'm currently under 1100sq.ft.) but there again I was told it was far too much draw on the solar.

    What's the draw of the master cool (Volts & Amps) ?
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • backroad
    backroad Solar Expert Posts: 185 ✭✭
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    Re: 3524 Outback and Generator Do not like each other........YET~

    120v and I believe about 600 watts, but I'll check on that again.  It uses a 120v, 2 speed 3/4 hp motor. It also uses a squirrel cage blower, which is one of the worst draws I understand.

    The swamp coolers I'm using now have had the squirrel cage and 120v motors removed and a 12 volt motor and 3 blade fan added.
  • crewzer
    crewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: 3524 Outback and Generator Do not like each other........YET~

    Dennis,

    Back to your freezer. I believe the Dept. of Energy (DOE) ambient test spec for home refrigerators is 90 F / 32 C. Assuming the same spec is used for freezers, you’re probably covered in that regard. You might see slightly higher consumption in the summer and somewhat less in the winter. You’ll need to keep the coils clean, and you’ll want to keep that black appliance away from direct sunlight and other heat sources.

    251 kWh/yr = 688 Wh/day. Assuming overall system operating efficiency of 60%, and using average annual insolation data for nearby Prescott, you’ll need a PV array (south facing, tilt = ~35 degrees) rated at 688 Wh/day / 60% / 6.1 hours/day = 188 W (STC). Or, you can add this much PV to your existing array.

    Looks to me that adding another 390 W of PV will easily cover the freezer’s energy requirement, and the some.

    HTH,
    Jim / crewzer
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: 3524 Outback and Generator Do not like each other........YET~

    offsubject sidenote:
    to the one complaining of not being able to post a comment here, please be sure you are registered and properly logged on when attempting to do so. the forum is running fine for the record.
  • backroad
    backroad Solar Expert Posts: 185 ✭✭
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    Re: 3524 Outback and Generator Do not like each other........YET~

    Hi Niel..........It's was me that "COMPLAINED" about not being able to add a comment to the forum. I'd always logged on to the site and was automatically logged in. Something different happened and I had not checked to see if I was logged in. OOPS......Sillllly Me...

    Crewzer....thanks for the calculations, but I really will not hold you responsible if'n it doesn't do it. Also, I appreciate the note about southfacing and 35 degrees. It doesn't hardly get to 35 degrees in the dead of winter here so now what? :):):):):):) I did know about the south facing but I was about to ask the tilt question, but you beat me to it.

    Am I correct in the thinking that the swamp coolers with no squirrel cage and a 12v motor are way better than a normal 120v cooler?
  • crewzer
    crewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: 3524 Outback and Generator Do not like each other........YET~
    Crewzer....thanks for the calculations, but I really will not hold you responsible if'n it doesn't do it.  Also, I appreciate the note about southfacing and 35 degrees.  It doesn't hardly get to 35 degrees  in the dead of winter here so now what?          I did know about the south facing but I was about to ask the tilt question, but you beat me to it.

    Dennis,

    Good question! The referenced table already takes the winter’s lower Sun angle into account, hence only receiving 4.9 hours/day average insolation in December for a south-facing array tilted up at latitude (~35 degrees).

    You could consider increasing the fixed tilt angle to latitude + 15 degrees (~50 degrees). This approach would decrease average June insolation from 7.0 hrs/day to 6.0 hrs/day (~-14%), but it would increase average December insolation from 4.9 hrs/day to 5.4 hrs/day (~+10%), resulting in fairly consistent average daily energy production. Overall average annual insolation reduction would be from 6.1 hrs/day to 5.9 hrs/day (~-3%).

    (Frankly, I’d be surprised if the PV array’s output took the full 14% hit at 50 degrees tilt in the summer, as the panels should operate a bit cooler than if they were “better” aligned.)

    Or, you could consider an adjustable array with a “winter” setting (latitude +15 degrees) from ~September 22 to ~March 21, and a “summer”” setting (latitude – 15 degrees) from ~March 21 to ~September 22. This approach is more work, but the semi-annual adjustment would improve seasonal energy production.

    HTH,
    Jim / crewzer
  • backroad
    backroad Solar Expert Posts: 185 ✭✭
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    Re: 3524 Outback and Generator Do not like each other........YET~

    This may be a little embarrassing to me but............I do actually have a compass, and the panels are set to due south. Still being a little involved in still moving stuff ( :) ), I haven't yet found my little cheapo sears angle finder. Next trip to town I will buy another. They aways seem to come in handy when working on the suspension of my Willy's. IT sounds like anywhere close will work though.

    Since uping the breakers on my little wheelhouse generator, I've had no trouble charging with the inverter. I'm now getting my electrolite up to 1225, n up to 1250 ocassionally.

    You guys are trully appreciated with all of the time and help you put into helping others here.
    I know that trying to be patient with us "dumb ol' truckdrivers" can be a really challenge in itself.

    OOPS.......time to go out an comsume my favorite adult beverage..........It's really gotten hot here in the high desert this week.

    Dennis Webster
    Bagdad, Az
  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
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    Re: 3524 Outback and Generator Do not like each other........YET~

    To whom it may concern,

    I bought an outback regulator (mx60) and inverter (fx3524) in September 2006. The system is for my cottage. It will never be connected to any array (hydro). Everything is working well except that my generator(s) will not charge the battery through the inverter. I have two generators (Yamaha 5000 watt and a Yamaha 600 watt). I know my problem with the Yamaha 5000, it will hit the frequency low limit. However, the Yamaha 600 watt operates within the proper parameters for voltage and frequency (118 volt and 61.6 Hz).

    My questions are,
    Do I need a MATE to change parameters on the fx3524 for my Yamaha 600?
    And also, if so. What is the parameters or limits I need to change?
    If I need to change my generator, what generator is suggested?

    Thank you,
    Andre
  • crewzer
    crewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: 3524 Outback and Generator Do not like each other........YET~

    Andre,

    The non-grid interactive VFX3524 is spec’d to handle an AC input frequency of between 54 and 66 Hz. Is your Yamaha 5000 W generator operating outside of that range?

    The 3524’s default battery charge current setting is “18 aac”. This means that it will attempt to draw ~18 Amp from a 120 VAC power source in order to deliver ~75 A DC to the “24 V” battery bank. The Yamaha 600 is probably only rated to supply ~4 A or so at 120 VAC.

    If you’re going to use the 600 W generator, you’d have to substantially reduce the 3524’s AC current demand. Additionally, there seems to big difference at low current levels between the input current setting and actual current draw due to poor power factor. For example, when I set my 2524 to “4 aac”, it actual drew 6.44 A, and the power factor was just 0.75.

    Therefore, I suggest you start by using a Mate to reducing the charger’s “aac” setting to 2 A. Here are the instructions:

    1) The 3524 should be set up to limit the total amount of current -- both for the charger as well as for downstream loads – that it draws from the generator.
    2) Set the AC TRANSFER CONTROL to GEN. See inverter manual rev 7.2, page 51 (INPUT MENU). This tells the inverter/charger to use the programmed “generator” settings.
    3) Set the AC2/Gen Limit to 3 aac. See inverter manual rev 7.2, page 51 (INPUT MENU). This setting will tell the 3648 to limit total 120 VAC input current used by the charger and by downstream loads to <4 A. If the total current requirement of the charger plus downstream loads exceeds this setting, the inverter will “back off” the charging current to the batteries to maintain the limit keep powering downstream loads.
    4) Set the CHARGER LIMIT to 2 aac. See inverter manual rev 7.2, pages 52 (Advanced Screens) and 54 (CHARGER MENU). This setting should limit 120 VAC input current used by the charger to <2 A. The charger may actually draw 3 or 4 A, and this should avoid overloading the 600 W generator.
    6) Set the other charger settings in accordance with the battery manufacturer’s recommendations.

    If you have to get another generator and you want to be able to use the 3524’s full charging capability (20 AAC), you’ll probably need something like a single phase generator rated at 3000 W continuous at sea level. Higher altitudes will require larger generators. If you need to power downstream loads while charging the batteries, you’ll need to factor that requirement into the equation.

    Many larger generators are spec’d for 120/240 VAC. Accordingly, they typically can only supply ½ of their rated power to each 120 VAC leg. If you get a 120/240 generator, you’ll either need one with outputs that can be combined (i.e., a Honda with an inverter output), or you’ll need an external balancing transformer (i.e., an OutBack X-240).

    HTH,
    Jim / crewzer
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: 3524 Outback and Generator Do not like each other........YET~

    andre,
    what happened when you connected the yamaha 5000 up to the inverter? in fact, i'm a bit confused on your setup. what are you using the mx60 for if the generators are supposed to supply the power to, i would assume it to be, the batteries through the inverter's charger? or is the mx60 irrelevent of the problem you speak of and pvs also supply power to the assumed batteries?:confused::confused::confused::confused:
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: 3524 Outback and Generator Do not like each other........YET~

    telco,
    are you aware of the private message feature that you can use to tell of your hunting experiences to backroad?
  • Telco
    Telco Solar Expert Posts: 201 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Re: 3524 Outback and Generator Do not like each other........YET~
    niel wrote: »
    telco,
    are you aware of the private message feature that you can use to tell of your hunting experiences to backroad?

    No problem. .............