48V 3 Phase AC?

theservicegroup777
theservicegroup777 Registered Users Posts: 11
I am looking to add to my current PV system with wind turbines. I am looking online and see " 48v 3 Phase AC " . Can someone explain what the relation of the 48V is to the 3 phase ac? Doesn't the rectifier put out 12v dc? Maybe someone can straighten me out here...

Thanks!

Comments

  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: 48V 3 Phase AC?

    Welcome to the forum.

    Well it would depend what the particular maker is talking about, but in general most wind turbines are 3-phase AC alternators. The output of this 3-phase is then rectified to DC (the same as with a car's alternator). In this case the output seems to be 48 Volts not 12 Volts. It is possible it is an unrectified 3-phase 48 Volt AC output. This would be like removing the rectifiers from a car's alternator: three wires with approximately 48 VAC between any given two.

    BTW for most applications small wind turbines is just throwing away money.
  • theservicegroup777
    theservicegroup777 Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: 48V 3 Phase AC?



    BTW for most applications small wind turbines is just throwing away money.

    Yea, so is solar.
  • theservicegroup777
    theservicegroup777 Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: 48V 3 Phase AC?

    Staying on track however, What is the 3 rd wire? If its dc out? I'm looking for a ac output unit..
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: 48V 3 Phase AC?
    Yea, so is solar.

    No it isn't, providing you make the right choices.
    For example solar here in town is money down the drain because the utility rate is $0.10 per kW hour. Solar out at the cabin is a good value because there is no utility and gasoline is $1.39 per litre.

    Wind tends to be a waste of money most places because:
    1). Most sites do not have sufficient wind to make it viable, no matter what it feels like;
    2). Most turbines are low quality with exaggerated output claims;
    3). Even good installs cost a lot of money to get the turbine up into clear air, and then you have ongoing maintenance (and often repair) costs.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: 48V 3 Phase AC?

    Here's what a 3-phase alternator looks like in diagram. Turbines are usually Permanent Magnet Alternators, so the 'exciter' is not a coil fed through slip rings. The field is mislabeled here; that is the exciter or armature. Other wiring is the same.
  • theservicegroup777
    theservicegroup777 Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: 48V 3 Phase AC?

    So the "48 V" is just the way that specific PMA is set up..

    Thanks :)
  • theservicegroup777
    theservicegroup777 Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: 48V 3 Phase AC?

    Awesome, thats what i needed. THanks !
  • theservicegroup777
    theservicegroup777 Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: 48V 3 Phase AC?
    No it isn't, providing you make the right choices.
    For example solar here in town is money down the drain because the utility rate is $0.10 per kW hour. Solar out at the cabin is a good value because there is no utility and gasoline is $1.39 per litre.

    Wind tends to be a waste of money most places because:
    1). Most sites do not have sufficient wind to make it viable, no matter what it feels like;
    2). Most turbines are low quality with exaggerated output claims;
    3). Even good installs cost a lot of money to get the turbine up into clear air, and then you have ongoing maintenance (and often repair) costs.



    When did PV become maintenance free for life? Scratch off #3
    Buy a effin good turbine. Walmart coleman wind turbine isn't going to cut it . Scratch off #2
    You have no clue where I live. Scratch off Number 1

    Now... AT MY LOCATION. . . for me... I will get more out of the turbines in a 24 hour period than solar can ever touch, dollar for dollar / watt for watt. How do i know? The neighbor next to me has both and already been there. We have short days and the the PV panels are idle at night. So please keep your exaggerated claims to a minimum. Your opinion was great though :)

    Now if you at a cabin where you have no choice of ever getting power to you. Your actually better with a combination of the two. Panels don't charge at night. Also if your in a cabin you probably have or will be getting used to giving up some of modern day conveniences.

    If you can get power...It's my opinion that its usually cheaper to stay on grid. Thats just my opinion.

    As far as I go, Our operation is maintaining 6 homesteads on a family farm of 600 + acres.

    I 100% agree with you on efficiency if you make the right choices for each different situation, however for you to determine for someone else what it appropriate is... well....absurd.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: 48V 3 Phase AC?
    When did PV become maintenance free for life? Scratch off #3

    Since millions of panels have been installed and working flawlessly all around the world for decades. You never have to take them down and grease or replace bearings, for example.
    Buy a effin good turbine. Walmart coleman wind turbine isn't going to cut it . Scratch off #2

    Buying a good turbine is a good idea. Pity you can't always tell in advance which one is good and which one is junk.
    You have no clue where I live. Scratch off Number 1

    Actually I do. However that doesn't change what I said or make it any less true.
    Now... AT MY LOCATION. . . for me... I will get more out of the turbines in a 24 hour period than solar can ever touch, dollar for dollar / watt for watt. How do i know? The neighbor next to me has both and already been there. We have short days and the the PV panels are idle at night. So please keep your exaggerated claims to a minimum. Your opinion was great though :)

    My claims are not exaggerated and they are based on thousands of installation examples, not one. Try reading what I said instead of what you think I said.
    Now if you at a cabin where you have no choice of ever getting power to you. Your actually better with a combination of the two. Panels don't charge at night. Also if your in a cabin you probably have or will be getting used to giving up some of modern day conveniences.

    A popular concept: turbine for when the sun doesn't shine. Pity it doesn't always work out. Not every location or installation is the same.
    If you can get power...It's my opinion that its usually cheaper to stay on grid. Thats just my opinion.

    Actually that is a fact for most everywhere. Grid rates are usually way below what PV or turbine can provide power for except in a few locations in NA. Outside the continent it can be quite different, although the usual grid problem becomes dependability.
    As far as I go, Our operation is maintaining 6 homesteads on a family farm of 600 + acres.

    Nice! :D
    I 100% agree with you on efficiency if you make the right choices for each different situation, however for you to determine for someone else what it appropriate is... well....absurd.

    Au contraire. It's what I do quite often: fix other people's flawed installations. Again, you did not read what I wrote.

    I wish you well with your turbines. If you follow your own advice you should be okay.
  • theservicegroup777
    theservicegroup777 Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: 48V 3 Phase AC?

    I wonder how long we can go back and forth... I mean were both right....right....LOL

    Lets see how good you really are? Where do I live since you seem to know?
  • theservicegroup777
    theservicegroup777 Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: 48V 3 Phase AC?

    Maybe ill break down your reply answer in the meantime...
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,433 admin
    Re: 48V 3 Phase AC?

    Somewhere around Bicknell Indiana?

    Anyway--In general, many find that the wind turbine is the "inexpensive" part of the install... The tower, base, electrical/electronics, maintenance (access to turbine), damage from weather/lightning, etc. tend to make wind power a problematic power source.

    We normally recommend >60 foot towers (at least 30 feet above any upwind obstructions)...

    If you live in a windy area (some folks do)--Have the land to put up a turbine safely (not bolted to the roof of a home/occupied building), and build your own turbine from reputable plans (or work with a machinist who can help you)--And you have the equipment to fly a good sized turbine (crane/tilting tower+winch, etc.), it can be done.

    However, for a large majority of folks, wind has been difficult. Many of the production turbines fail in 1-2 years, or a wind/lightning storm comes through and takes out the blades/rotating hardware/electronics.

    If wind is working well for you and giving you predictable power when you need it (such as far north in the winter)--Great. We are all very happy for you. And, if you like, please feel free to document your installation here. We are all here to learn.

    In general, what has worked well for many of the folks here--Design the battery bank to support the loads, then design the solar array to support the battery bank charging needs and load needs (for ~9 months of the year). And use a genset+AC battery charger for bad weather during the other ~3 months of the year.

    And, if wind is still attractive, add a turbine+tower to reduce the fuel usage of the genset--And see how it goes.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • theservicegroup777
    theservicegroup777 Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: 48V 3 Phase AC?
    Since millions of panels have been installed and working flawlessly all around the world for decades. You never have to take them down and grease or replace bearings, for example.
    Decades... You realize its 30-40 years before you break even and start making money. Again, im not talking about 5 or 6 panels and a couple golf cart batteries in daddys basement. By that time i doubt everything is still as efficient and operating like it did when it was new. Its nature. Shizzzz get old and worn out.

    Buying a good turbine is a good idea. Pity you can't always tell in advance which one is good and which one is junk.


    You can, We have a thing called internet. Its like buying a car they are all going to have issues. At least you know to stay away from the junk.
    Actually I do. However that doesn't change what I said or make it any less true.

    I'm actually waiting on this reply...

    My claims are not exaggerated and they are based on thousands of installation examples, not one. Try reading what I said instead of what you think I said.
    You offered a solution then at the end said BTW your wasting money.. This is an opinion that you feel is right. Its not a fact and that why your entitled to have it :)
    A popular concept: turbine for when the sun doesn't shine. Pity it doesn't always work out. Not every location or installation is the same.

    Again, I never said one or the other. I actually use/will use both and suggested that for the cabin. You really thing having both is dumb??? Most people have a second car for a reason. Eventually the main car will need fixed. Let know pull out the energy hog of a generator
    Actually that is a fact for most everywhere. Grid rates are usually way below what PV or turbine can provide power for except in a few locations in NA. Outside the continent it can be quite different, although the usual grid problem becomes dependability.

    Fact for most everywhere? No such thing as a " Fact for most of everywhere" A fact is a fact...
    Nice! :D

    Thanks!
    Au contraire. It's what I do quite often: fix other people's flawed installations. Again, you did not read what I wrote.

    I wish you well with your turbines. If you follow your own advice you should be okay.

    Just my two cents....again :)
  • theservicegroup777
    theservicegroup777 Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: 48V 3 Phase AC?
    BB. wrote: »
    Somewhere around Bicknell Indiana?


    No, no even in Indiana.

    Anyways, Let but the bickering behind us eh, I have a serious question. Solar or Wind ...Are you a fan of Grid Tie? The excess that is.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,433 admin
    Re: 48V 3 Phase AC?

    Another guess would be Englewood Colorado...

    Anyway, personally I am not a fan of small wind either.

    Grid Tied can be a great way to "buffer" your power needs. More or less, the utility acts like a giant AC battery and they only charge for the "difference" between what you use and what you generate (my plan, the "bank" runs for 12 months. During the summer, I put money "in the bank", and during winter I pull money out of the bank). I can go positive or negative balance in the bank, and in October, I pay any negative balance--And any positive balance is "reset to zero".

    However--As solar (and wind) Grid Tied systems become more popular--The utilities are starting to push back on "Net Metered" plans. In my area, Net Metered plans are subsidized by other customers (utility "buys" power from me at retail price). And as the install base of solar/RE power grows, the utilties and PUC are changing the rules to have less subsides. In my case, in as little as 10 years from now, I may lose my present plan and see something else.

    From $4.50 per month connect charge and 1-year net metering (summer afternoon is ~$0.30 per kWH payment to me for excess power generated, and I buy it at night for $0.09 per kWH) to, possibly something like $40-60 per month connection charge and $0.05 per kWH payments for generated excess power.

    We do have a few people that are very happy with their wind powered systems here--But they usually do their own maintenance and some have built there own. On 60-90+ foot towers.

    The general small wind companies are giving the entire market a bad name (in my humble opinion).

    In general, when all the costs are rolled in, Solar/RE off grid power costs around $1.00 to $2.00+ per kWHr... There are a few people that have their costs down towards $0.50 or so per kWH--But it takes a lot of DIY and shopping for bargains (used batteries, etc.) to get costs down that low.

    For GT power--Yea, it is pretty easy to get down to the $0.15 or so (even less) per kWH in sunny regions with low costs and government credits...

    Where my summer Time of Use rates run between $0.30 to $0.50 per kWH--Grid Tied systems can really save money (when the utility has a "customer friendly" rate plan).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: 48V 3 Phase AC?
    Decades... You realize its 30-40 years before you break even and start making money. Again, im not talking about 5 or 6 panels and a couple golf cart batteries in daddys basement. By that time i doubt everything is still as efficient and operating like it did when it was new. Its nature. Shizzzz get old and worn out.

    Actually that's not true. Many GT systems are making payback in less than 10 years now. Some poor souls have electric rates in the $0.50 per kW hour range which accelerates payback considerably. Others will never see payback unless it's the only choice for power period. If you have a choice of keeping your medical clinic in Haiti operating with expensive solar power or watching people die guess which one you pick?

    So far the predicted decline in output and failure or panels hasn't shown up. Again that's the majority of millions of panels including off-grid, grid-tie, and commercial installs. The inverters and charge controllers are proving to be pretty dependable too.

    You can, We have a thing called internet. Its like buying a car they are all going to have issues. At least you know to stay away from the junk.

    Yes we have some great, long threads about the junk. And so many people still buy first and asked second. Not much help we can give them.

    You offered a solution then at the end said BTW your wasting money.. This is an opinion that you feel is right. Its not a fact and that why your entitled to have it :)

    My actual response was: "BTW for most applications small wind turbines is just throwing away money." I did not say it is 100% no good no matter what. So many people have trouble understanding what I write that I sometimes wonder if I haven't slipped into a foreign language.


    Again, I never said one or the other. I actually use/will use both and suggested that for the cabin. You really thing having both is dumb??? Most people have a second car for a reason. Eventually the main car will need fixed. Let know pull out the energy hog of a generator

    Nope. Never said it was dumb or that having both was dumb. You're trying to put words in my mouth and that only makes you look foolish. Some of us get by fine on one car even if it does need an occasional mend. Some get by on no car their whole lives. As for the gen, I'll stick with the fuel-sipping inverter-generator thanks; no more of those gas hogs for me!


    Fact for most everywhere? No such thing as a " Fact for most of everywhere" A fact is a fact...

    Yes there is, because in this case the fact is subject to the local conditions (i.e. power rates). I spend a lot of time explaining to people that the world isn't the same everywhere. They keep not believing me.

    So if you're not where your IP address says you are (and we frown on redirected IP's around here as it's a spam indicator) where are you?

    BTW this is not a debating forum. It may be fun for you but I've got a lot else to do so I think I'll wait and see your documentation of installation. Always interested in adding another system design to the experience!
  • theservicegroup777
    theservicegroup777 Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: 48V 3 Phase AC?
    Actually that's not true. Many GT systems are making payback in less than 10 years now. Some poor souls have electric rates in the $0.50 per kW hour range which accelerates payback considerably. Others will never see payback unless it's the only choice for power period. If you have a choice of keeping your medical clinic in Haiti operating with expensive solar power or watching people die guess which one you pick?

    So far the predicted decline in output and failure or panels hasn't shown up. Again that's the majority of millions of panels including off-grid, grid-tie, and commercial installs. The inverters and charge controllers are proving to be pretty dependable too.




    Yes we have some great, long threads about the junk. And so many people still buy first and asked second. Not much help we can give them.




    My actual response was: "BTW for most applications small wind turbines is just throwing away money." I did not say it is 100% no good no matter what. So many people have trouble understanding what I write that I sometimes wonder if I haven't slipped into a foreign language.





    Nope. Never said it was dumb or that having both was dumb. You're trying to put words in my mouth and that only makes you look foolish. Some of us get by fine on one car even if it does need an occasional mend. Some get by on no car their whole lives. As for the gen, I'll stick with the fuel-sipping inverter-generator thanks; no more of those gas hogs for me!





    Yes there is, because in this case the fact is subject to the local conditions (i.e. power rates). I spend a lot of time explaining to people that the world isn't the same everywhere. They keep not believing me.

    So if you're not where your IP address says you are (and we frown on redirected IP's around here as it's a spam indicator) where are you?

    BTW this is not a debating forum. It may be fun for you but I've got a lot else to do so I think I'll wait and see your documentation of installation. Always interested in adding another system design to the experience!


    You dont have to debate, you dont have to respond at all. As for my IP and location , thats my business..

    Thanks, Even though were like North and South, a lot of info has really been thrown out there.

    Where can I get a good GTI?
    Thanks Man!
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: 48V 3 Phase AC?

    Back when IP addresses were published with your post, I had stayed at a hotel in Ft Walton Beach Florida and the post stated a central Alabama town, likely a chain connection of some sort. So the IP isn't infallible.

    Doing off grid for a small community of cabins will be interesting in it's self, will they be close enough together to run off one system? Some combination of systems would be required, as well as community pressure to be sure someone isn't an energy hog. Lifestyles in energy use very hugely!

    After looking at my system (I'm one of those scrimpers, and believe I'm around 26 cents a KWh, before rebate in USA) I believe someone installing a system on their own, and can buy at near lowest possible, all new and come out around 40 cents a KWh before rebate in USA. This is NOT a fair estimate unless starting from scratch, since heating with electric and cooling is less than perfect(I'm working on that!) Much of the reduction of cost has to do with newer charge controller which can turn on opportunity loads and make greater use of power that would be otherwise wasted. This would also be for a reasonably large system to run a house, rather than a small cabin or 'part-time' system since these introduce to much waste.

    As for longevity of solar panels, I like to point out that I have some 30 yr old panels that are producing within 80% of their label.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • 2twisty
    2twisty Solar Expert Posts: 199 ✭✭✭
    Re: 48V 3 Phase AC?

    It was mentioned that there were several "long threads" about the junk turbines. Apparently I suffer from an inability to find the right keywords to locate them easily.

    Got any links handy? I'd love to read about them so that I know what I'm looking for in a turbine when I start shopping.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,433 admin
    Re: 48V 3 Phase AC?

    Here are a few "big threads" (I have not re-read them to see if really relevant to your questions):

    Missouri Wind and Solar Turbine, anyone try them?

    Warning
    Wind Max HY Energy Chinese imports hype or good stuff?
    3 Blades vs 5 Blades

    Anyway--A start... For searching on specific websites, I like the Google "site:" tag--For example, the above searches were done on Google with:

    site:forum.solar-electric.com Missouri wind

    You can use "-" to remove key word search results, and "+" to make a key word "mandatory".

    Sorry if some of my posts may be redundant--We moderators try to read all threads to keep a watch out for spam--And posts/questions starts to blend together (lose track of what questions have been answered in another thread).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset