Help me find my phantom loads....
concretefire
Solar Expert Posts: 25 ✭
Hi guys. I'm still hooked to the grid 100% but want to move to solar. Obviously, the #1 rule above all else is to conserve power. With that said, my wife are practicing changing our lifestyle to see if solar is even something we want to consider in the future.
In the spirit of conserving energy we started our own "project." We took our last months bill and saw we used 1333 kWh. That was before we began our project.
Knowing that a new billing cycle was coming up, we went to lowes and bought CFL bulbs, 60 watt equivalent @ 13 watts. We bought enough to change every bulb in the house. Literally.
We then had an extra fridge in the basement that was running 24/7, but we never used it. We unplugged it. Then, *STARTING ON* the first day of this newest billing cycle, we cut our Air Conditioner off. Completely off. We now use 1 ceiling fan in the living room. 1 ceiling fan in our bedroom.
We spend the majority of our time in the kitchen (3 - 13 watt CFL bulbs over the sink and the occasional use of the oven and stove top.) When we leave the kitchen, we turn those 3 lights off. I have a Kill A watt meter that I have hooked up to the fridge and it uses exactly 2 kWh per day.
The next biggest thing/s we use is our entertainment center. Kill A Watt meter tells us we use less than 1 kWh per day on that. Also in our living room, we use a single lamp running the same 13 watt CFL bulb. We turn it on when we get home from work, and turn it off before we go to bed. You can assume the lamp uses minimal power.....
Upstairs in our bedroom, we run that one ceiling fan, but only when we sleep. During the day it is turned off. We run the TV and DVR about 3 hrs per night up there and then it shuts off. The TV is a flat screen with power saving mode in place. I have not run the Kill A Watt meter on it yet but can we assume it uses at most 1 kWh per day??? A reasonable assumption I think......
I told you all that to tell you this, since implementing this "project", we have cut our power usage from 44 kWh per day, down to roughly 13 kWh per day. :cool::D
We don't run the air conditioner at all now. Logically thinking, the Fridge is the next power hog @ 2 kWh per day. The entertainment center @ roughly 1 kWh per day and and the upstairs TV/DVR @ 1 kWh per day (being generous) along with the kitchen lights and 1 lamp in the living room and ceiling fans I'll be generous again and throw in another 1 kWh per day...... that's 5 kWh per day.
Our power company shows us on their website how much power we use daily. (neat feature) I'm coming up with 5 kWh per day, being generous, but our power company is showing us at around 13 kWh per day, with our minimum being 10.2 kWh on one day.
Obviously, we are thrilled that we have GASHED our power consumption, but I cannot for the life of me figure out WHERE the other 8 kWh per day are coming from.
I would think now that we have killed the air condition, the next biggest thing would be the Fridge (and Kill A Watt has confirmed this) and it only comes in at 2 kWh per day.
We don't have any other "major" appliances running 24/7. We have new, stand up energy efficient clothes washer and dryer and we use it maybe 3 times a week. We run our dishwasher maybe twice a week.
We have a cable modem and wireless router > drop in the bucket > certainly not 8 kWh per day usage.......
So where is this "extra" power going? I'm at a loss at this point. Sorry for the long post but I wanted to be thorough. Water heater you say? > Gas. Not electric.
So what are some other power hogs that I am simply overlooking? Surely, I cannot be overlooking close to 8 kWh per day when I have checked every room in the house. I always come back to the same conclusion, the fridge HAS TO BE our biggest energy user per day, bar none. So where is the rest going? Help.
Thanks.
In the spirit of conserving energy we started our own "project." We took our last months bill and saw we used 1333 kWh. That was before we began our project.
Knowing that a new billing cycle was coming up, we went to lowes and bought CFL bulbs, 60 watt equivalent @ 13 watts. We bought enough to change every bulb in the house. Literally.
We then had an extra fridge in the basement that was running 24/7, but we never used it. We unplugged it. Then, *STARTING ON* the first day of this newest billing cycle, we cut our Air Conditioner off. Completely off. We now use 1 ceiling fan in the living room. 1 ceiling fan in our bedroom.
We spend the majority of our time in the kitchen (3 - 13 watt CFL bulbs over the sink and the occasional use of the oven and stove top.) When we leave the kitchen, we turn those 3 lights off. I have a Kill A watt meter that I have hooked up to the fridge and it uses exactly 2 kWh per day.
The next biggest thing/s we use is our entertainment center. Kill A Watt meter tells us we use less than 1 kWh per day on that. Also in our living room, we use a single lamp running the same 13 watt CFL bulb. We turn it on when we get home from work, and turn it off before we go to bed. You can assume the lamp uses minimal power.....
Upstairs in our bedroom, we run that one ceiling fan, but only when we sleep. During the day it is turned off. We run the TV and DVR about 3 hrs per night up there and then it shuts off. The TV is a flat screen with power saving mode in place. I have not run the Kill A Watt meter on it yet but can we assume it uses at most 1 kWh per day??? A reasonable assumption I think......
I told you all that to tell you this, since implementing this "project", we have cut our power usage from 44 kWh per day, down to roughly 13 kWh per day. :cool::D
We don't run the air conditioner at all now. Logically thinking, the Fridge is the next power hog @ 2 kWh per day. The entertainment center @ roughly 1 kWh per day and and the upstairs TV/DVR @ 1 kWh per day (being generous) along with the kitchen lights and 1 lamp in the living room and ceiling fans I'll be generous again and throw in another 1 kWh per day...... that's 5 kWh per day.
Our power company shows us on their website how much power we use daily. (neat feature) I'm coming up with 5 kWh per day, being generous, but our power company is showing us at around 13 kWh per day, with our minimum being 10.2 kWh on one day.
Obviously, we are thrilled that we have GASHED our power consumption, but I cannot for the life of me figure out WHERE the other 8 kWh per day are coming from.
I would think now that we have killed the air condition, the next biggest thing would be the Fridge (and Kill A Watt has confirmed this) and it only comes in at 2 kWh per day.
We don't have any other "major" appliances running 24/7. We have new, stand up energy efficient clothes washer and dryer and we use it maybe 3 times a week. We run our dishwasher maybe twice a week.
We have a cable modem and wireless router > drop in the bucket > certainly not 8 kWh per day usage.......
So where is this "extra" power going? I'm at a loss at this point. Sorry for the long post but I wanted to be thorough. Water heater you say? > Gas. Not electric.
So what are some other power hogs that I am simply overlooking? Surely, I cannot be overlooking close to 8 kWh per day when I have checked every room in the house. I always come back to the same conclusion, the fridge HAS TO BE our biggest energy user per day, bar none. So where is the rest going? Help.
Thanks.
Comments
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Re: Help me find my phantom loads....
Make yourself a spreadsheet and list every light socket and plug in receptacle in the house, mark it ALL down room by room, and measure what ever is plugged into it for 24 hrs.
You will probably find one of those 'got cha's'. I know I did...
Also don't guess ie TV, measure it... I think you might find some watts there...
hth
Yes that fridge is likely the biggest user. How old is it, the new ones use 1 Kwh per day or less now, maybe time to replace it
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Re: Help me find my phantom loads....
Are you & the wife having "COLD SHOWERS " ? Kid's who needs em :-) ..
Computer Wifi connection is always live & hot , just a babbling where are my computers ??
Door bell transformer or any wall wort -
Re: Help me find my phantom loads....Computer Wifi connection is always live & hot , just a babbling where are my computers ??
Computer was going to be my first guess, a tower left on is a pretty big draw, also did you have a security light put in? or maybe the previous owner? In the big city, they use to have a program where the electric company would put in a security light, all you had to do was pay the bill. Even an outside security light that still has a 200watt bulb would be a couple Kwhs or more.Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites, Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
- Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects. -
Re: Help me find my phantom loads....
I understand "plug everything in and get hard numbers." I really do get that, BUT, I don't leave my computer tower on at night. I turn it off. Shut down. No power. It's off. Also, I am not aware of any "security" light by the power company.
I understand not guessing, but with the computer tower off, and no security light, and common sense tells me the biggest user is the Fridge at exactly 2 kWh per day.....and I'm still averaging 13 kWh per day.... I have a massive "gotcha" somewhere and naturally I start to think of bigger appliances, Oven, Microwave, Dishwasher, etc.... and we use those very minimum, sometimes not at all on a daily basis. I'm having a difficult time believing I'm missing something major that is zapping close to 8 kWh per day. I thought maybe it was the hot water heater, but then learned it is gas. Not electric.
I'm overlooking something, or there is a massive "leak" somewhere. Just trying to narrow down what it could be. ???? The spreadsheet is a great idea and I will do that, but my gut is telling me I'm not going to find a whopping 8 kWh per day that I just missed. I could be generous and say maybe I'm missing something (combination of things) that zaps 3 kWh per day....but not EIGHT!! (on average)
What where some of your "gotchas?" that you discovered along the way?
Thanks. -
Re: Help me find my phantom loads....
12 kWH per day "leak" is ~500 Watts on 24x7 hours per day.
A tower computer can be ~200 Watts when running. A laptop closer to 20-30 Watts.
A DVR can be 20-60 Watts.
An older TV can be 100-300 Watts. A new LED TV can be 1/10th that.
Printer, washing machine (electronic), can be 3-10 watts or so "turned off"/on standby.
Do you have outdoor security lights? I changed them all to LED motion detector.
Older energy start refrigerator (not running quite right, dust bunnies on condenser, poor circulation, bad door seals, etc.) can be 2-3 kWH per day. A new, very efficient full sized refrigerator down towards 1 kWH per day.
I have an old CD/Stereo (my first and only sort of "nice" audio gear from 25 years ago) draws 40 Watts just to run the clock (on standby)--That is on a power strip.
As several others have said--You have to measure each load with a Kill-a-Watt type meter. The DVRs/Computers/Home Entertainment Centers can draw surprising amounts of power.
You can also disconnect/turn off all your loads and go watch your meter... New electronic meters will directly read the output (0.140 would be 0.140 kW or 140 Watts of load, etc.). Older meters (mechanical) have a rotating disk. You can time the rotations and figure out the Watts--But basically, if you have all your known loads turned off and the disk is moving more than a "creep" speed--There is still something drawing power.
If your place is a condo/apartment/shared housing--I have seen the occasional miss-wired (accidental and otherwise) of power to wrong meter/unit combinations.
I would also confirm the S/N / Utility ID of the meter and your bill--confirm they are the same for billing purposes. Also I would confirm the Numbers on the meter match that will the bill (for meter reader areas--Sometimes they "guess" at the reading when the miss the normal reading date). There have been a few issues with electronic miss-reads too (early meter installation/billing software integration).
-Bill "trust but verify" B.
PS: In industrial buildings, have seen "strip heaters" and A/C turned on at the same time too...Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset -
Re: Help me find my phantom loads....
First question -- Single Family (stand alone) Home or duplex/condo?
If duplex or condo, many timees the units are mirror images of each other. I have seen where people have literally went thru the back of one of their outlets into a neighbor's outlet (on the shared mirrored wall) and tapped into it to run their "grow lights"
Washing machine and dryer? Or is the dryer gas also?
Lawn sprinkler/pump?
Well pump?
RO Water system?
Undersink InstaHot Water system?
Water Cooler (stand-alone 5 gallon type)? Mine uses almost 1kwh per day.
And like Bill said, I too have also seen an AC system where the heat strip was on all the time (by accident of course). I'd shut the BREAKERS off on your AC to rule that out.
Attic Fan?
Sump pump or sewage/septic lift station?
Lastly, have the electric company test your meter. I have seen rare cases too where it was not calibrated properly.
And, since you can see daily usage from the electric company online (I used to be able to see pretty much up to the minute on my old company), turn your main breaker off for a complete day at midnight (when you are going to be gone for a day) and see if it shows ZERO for that day online to rule out some issue with billing/polling.Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html -
Re: Help me find my phantom loads....
You can turn everything off in the house and then check the meter. Still spinning? then you didn't find "everything". If that is the case then start shutting off breakers one at a time, that will narrow down the circuit. -
Re: Help me find my phantom loads....
Don't overlook the possibility the utility's meter may be defective. It happens. You can have big arguments trying to prove it, though.
Psyche yourself up to turning off the whole house for an entire day (flip main breaker off). See what shows up on the billing for that day in the next cycle.
If you were in BC I'd suggest a search for which of your neighbours is tapping your lines to run their grow-op. That happens too. -
Re: Help me find my phantom loads....
Even if the meter can show an accurate real-time reading, I'd still get a clamp-on meter, open the panel and start measuring each circuit. Then compare that to the meter, if possible. If it can't be compared, it should still show you which circuit(s) are the culprit.
I also want to verify what the OP said above about the DVR. Is it completely turned off at the outlet, or just turned off via the remote? DVRs use a huge amount of electricity 24/7, the same amount "on" or "off" (which really just turns off the video output). 35 watts is roughly average and that would be over 800 watts in a day.4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is -
Re: Help me find my phantom loads....Cariboocoot wrote: »
If you were in BC I'd suggest a search for which of your neighbours is tapping your lines to run their grow-op. That happens too.
Wasn't a grow-op, but something similar happened near here one Winter. Friend of mine went South for the Winter and came home in the Spring to a rather large electric bill, in spite of everything being turned off. Turns out his neighbour had strung a heavy extension cord from my friend's outside outlet, over to his own house and used it to power an electric heater all Winter. Now when buddy heads South he kills the main breaker. -
Re: Help me find my phantom loads....
Little things add up to a lot. When my wife and I started doing the same thing, we found our fish tank setup was drawing a lot of power. Light, pump, aerator, heater, etc. all added up to a considerable amount of power. That combined with so many things using standby power we had to take a harder look. We were in the same position using about 10-13Kwh each day. After we started measuring every thing in the house we found it wasn't one or two big things, but several small things that was eating up a lot of power.
It isn't fun but you'll need to use a meter on every single thing in the house. At the start of our checking we were using up to 13 KwH hours a day and we don't have a dishwasher, newer appliances, etc. Do you have an electric dryer? You said you only use it about 3 times a week, but how many loads do you have to dry on those days? Our electric dryer was using about 5000 watt hours (we had to check the meter outside for this load) and my wife only used it 3 times a week also, but had to dry about 3 loads. A lot depends on how long it is run obviously, but the power consumption of the dryer alone was enough to get my wife to start hanging clothes out again. -
Re: Help me find my phantom loads....
Electronic start on the DHW tank and if a range/stove also has one can use lots of power just waiting to make a spark. Most appliances and electrical items are built with the thinking of huge grid power . My Gas range is a Premier with electronic start, I put that on a rotary wall time (like a bathroom fan ) save 1.5 kw per day .
VT
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