What should I do regarding my batteries? (Specific Gravity Query)

Photowhit · August 2014

Re: What should I do regarding my batteries? (Specific Gravity Query)

.....YES.....

You appear not know that there are other reasons to do equalizing. I'm sorry you feel it's a waste of time, if you have tall case batteries you might not, if you have Lead Antimony battery you might not. If I wasn't open to learning, I would just have told you ALL flooded battery manufacturers suggest a regular equalizing. other than Trojan, who has such a high absorption recommendation, they don't need this.

In shallow discharge use tall case batteries are prone to stratification; I spent an hour tracking down what manufacturer say This is the link to the post with the links;

And here is the word from batter manufacturers, hate to have you take my word!

Okay, it's NOT JUST FORKLIFT BATTERIES!!!

SO I checked your East Penn and they too don't recommend a maintenance Equalizing;

After the batteries are fully charged, they may need an equalizing
charge to bring the battery voltages closer together. Only
equalize golf car batteries when they have a low specific
gravity (below 1.250) or a wide-ranging specific gravity
between batteries (0.030) after being fully charged. Only perform
an equalize charge on batteries that are flooded/wet.

But;

Rolls Surette;

Equalization - Preventative
Individual cells will vary slightly in specific gravity after a charging cycle. Equalization
or a “controlled overcharge” is required to bring each battery plate to a fully charged
condition. This will reduce stratification and sulfating, two circumstances that shorten
battery life. Equalization of the battery bank is recommended every 30 to 180 days,

Crown; Batteries used in RE systems should be equalized every 30 days at a minimum...

Exide; Periodic equalization may improve battery life. Equalizing // helps to reduce the effects of
electrolyte stratification.

US Batteries; Actively used batteries should be equalized once per month.

US Battery new for RE; Constant voltage (2.55+/-0.05 vpc) extended for 1-3 hours after normal charge cycle (repeat every 30 days)

Though Trojan doesn't generally recommend equalizing, the do state; Trojan recommends any automated system should be set to equalize Industrial batteries at least
every 30 nominal charge throughputs. // An equalizing charge prevents battery stratification and reduces sulfation, the leading causes, of
battery failure.

And even East Penn/ Deka says; Based on PV applications, unpredictable recharge availability, periodic equalize may be required.

..and your giving me Forklift batteries and I'll assume HUP...

Cariboocoot · August 2014

Re: What should I do regarding my batteries? (Specific Gravity Query)

Two reasons for equalizing: cell imbalance (which is clearly present in this case), and habitual bad charging that keeps the whole bank from reaching proper SG. No, it ain't normal to have to periodically EQ no matter what the junk battery makers say. Just because you can't get their lousy lumps of lead to charge up in 4 hours of sunlight doesn't mean your system is at fault.

EQ should have no effect on stratification because there should be none if the charging regime is correct. Mostly the people who make batteries haven't got a clue about RE use and are just covering themselves telling you to equalize regularly, no matter what. If the batteries are properly charged and you do an EQ you will be adding unnecessary stress and shortening the battery life, not lengthening it.

I wonder if Surrette is still shipping the batteries with an SG of 1.000? Probably takes a lot of EQ to get them up.

Since the OP has cells reading 1.250 and some reading 1.230 obviously these aren't low SG batteries and obviously they do need an equalization charge. Apparently they also need some adjustment to the charge regiment.

ILFE · August 2014

Re: What should I do regarding my batteries? (Specific Gravity Query)

CDN_VT wrote: »

Paul , Good we understand . I also have a few Midnight kids (As In Solar CC's)
And what Photowhit posted was what I was referring to .
Get a temp gauge on them for you to read , and follow checking SG every 15 mins or so . You might have lots of gas off so wear eye protection & have water for you to wash off any drops. after an hour or so You'll know if you you are gaining SG or it's reached it's max and it's just bubbling gas off.
Many times at the marina I have seen folks charge there battery's to the boil point & fill the boats hull / bilge with gasses.Same would happen if you were to force a unregulated timed high voltage (14.7 or some high numb ) thinking it might help , but in fact you have boiled & damaged.

Adding of the WBJ : http://www.midnitesolar.com/video/videoPlay.php?video_ID=92&videoCat_ID=21
Your line paul :" I do have a WBjr, but have not connected it yet. I wanted to get my batteries up to snuff before doing so, in hopes of having the SOC, etc., more accurate." after you have figured that the SOC is 100% , you may start the WBJ & all timed settings by starting the Kid again. Learned /programmed in settings stay , but the rest start from scratch. (pull fuses & PV power at night or in resting off)

Bulk clock needs the WBJ (hooked up ) for it to judge timing. after a using period of a few weeks .

Would help plus the battery temp sensor. Without knowing your true battery build specs , there will be guessing , comparing since you have another pair but aged differently. home set is charged from Grid ? if they show a different SG then you know something is up .

One thing I do (because of age, left brain forgets) is before I change any setting in the Kid Or classics , I have a strip of paper in the owner's manual where they walk me through each menu setting , there I write in the setting it started with in pen & then what i moved it to in pencil red.. That way I can remember a few days later what i had forgot .
Are you still on the factory settings of firmware version 17.22
New firmware out 1742 that I will update on next service maintenance of the system

Hey man,

Firstly, I have no other way to charge my batteries other than by using solar. At the farm we have no utilities, of any kind, available to us.

Here at the house, we have city power. But, I have no sort of charger (and buying a reputable one locally is not going to happen in Cambodia) to charge them from the mains.

Secondly, I had found online somewhere, that 14.4v-14.7v was the proper range for Absorption charging. I asked on one of the forums, here or on Midnite's forum, and came up with 14.5v for that setting.

Thirdly, this is a Beta Kid. I had some issues with it when I first powered it up. But, a bit of communication with Ryan and Mario at Midnite, as well as updating the firmware (to v1742) sorted that. I calibrated it and it has been working fine ever since.

CDN_VT wrote: »

... you may start the WBJ & all timed settings by starting the Kid again.

Do you mean I should do a factory reset after connecting the WBjr? Or, just disconnect solar and then battery power, then reconnect battery power to restart? I'm thinking the latter?

CDN_VT · August 2014

Re: What should I do regarding my batteries? (Specific Gravity Query)

Myself , & just in my thinking . I would reset with the 42 new firmware & start from square ONE , just to make sure . I started with a beta unit ,i found out later.

Updated below
VT

CDN_VT · August 2014

Re: What should I do regarding my batteries? (Specific Gravity Query)

ILFE wrote: »

Do you mean I should do a factory reset after connecting the WBjr? Or, just disconnect solar and then battery power, then reconnect battery power to restart? I'm thinking the latter?

Answering this question ^^

I did my firmware update to the 42 & did all the maintenance on the cells. Cleaning of the tops , measuring of SG and making sure all the cell to cell plus connections are tight and no voltage drops . A few hrs of hoping I can get these cells back into service. After having the system down for cleaning & inspection , firmware in , Installed 40 battery fuse then turned on the PV breaker. I did the reset to factory specs , then went through the menus, turning on for solar etc. I checked with what is standard settings & then changed them to my altered settings I have marked down over time.
So all the learn't info from the last 3 weeks is gone and this starts fresh with a few changes I have found to work with my set of cells.

I did the factory reset to check that my original numbers I wrote down were correct , because I did a few changes that im sure i forgot or questioned myself. Shutting off PV or input & then removing battery fuse makes the KID forget history (WBJ & BTS installed) but not your adjusted settings ..

VT

ILFE · August 2014

Re: What should I do regarding my batteries? (Specific Gravity Query)

We had a bright sunny day all day, in the Land of Wonder. (Still is fairly bright, even at half five in the afternoon.) So, I chose it for EQ day, just to be on the safe side. After 1.5 hours of Equalization, the SG doesn't seem to have changed much, if at all.

Image taken this morning.
Attachment not found.

How many more times should I do this before I just accept things will not change?

Can I add more acid to the cells that are low, by chance? Or, is that a definite no-no?

Blackcherry04 · August 2014

Re: What should I do regarding my batteries? (Specific Gravity Query)

Depending on the batteries and their age and the length of time they have remained in a low SG condition it may take a few hours to see much movement, it's a slow process. I have had some that took as long as 18 + hours. At some point you'll have to decide that it's never going to break the sulfate loose, it's crystallized and not possible to recombine. Watch the temperatures do not allow them to go above 110-115 F, stop and allow them to cool, then resume. In your case, if you can just use the 1.5 hours for several days and see if they improve.

DO not Add Acid !!! This will not help the situation at the moment. The known SG level is your foot in the sand, the point of origin and the place you want to return to. Once you change the SG's level you'll lose it.

Added : Also the 15.5 v is what the controller voltage is and may not be the actual battery voltage, have all the loads been disconnected from the Batteries ? The first hour of EQ can be absorbed by the batteries just getting the up to 15.5v and your seeing the over voltage from the controller. Are all the cells gassing freely ? Paralleled Batteries tend to be a bit slower and you'll see some batteries rise before others.
.

ILFE · August 2014

Re: What should I do regarding my batteries? (Specific Gravity Query)

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

Added : Also the 15.5 v is what the controller voltage is and may not be the actual battery voltage, have all the loads been disconnected from the Batteries ? Are all the cells gassing freely ? Paralleled Batteries tend to be a bit slower and you'll see some batteries rise before others..

I put a load on two nights ago then fully recharged yesterday. Otherwise, no loads are on. Currently, I only need the system about one day per week, when the power is cut here - usually for just a few hours. The cells can gas freely. I have not removed the caps though, if that is what you mean.

Blackcherry04 · August 2014

Re: What should I do regarding my batteries? (Specific Gravity Query)

ILFE wrote: »

I put a load on two nights ago then fully recharged yesterday. Otherwise, no loads are on. Currently, I only need the system about one day per week, when the power is cut here - usually for just a few hours. The cells can gas freely. I have not removed the caps though, if that is what you mean.

Thats sounds good, Leave the caps on unless they are hydro caps.

Be patient and watch them for a couple days.

I added some content to the previous post for you.

ILFE · August 2014

Re: What should I do regarding my batteries? (Specific Gravity Query)

Not sure what caps they are, The batteries can vent through them, though.

Will give 'em a couple of days.

Blackcherry04 · August 2014

Re: What should I do regarding my batteries? (Specific Gravity Query)

ILFE wrote: »

Not sure what caps they are, The batteries can vent through them, though.

Will give 'em a couple of days.

Generally you'd know if you have them, they cost $ 8-15 each more or less.
http://www.hydrocapcorp.com/info.htm .

Most of what you see posted about batteries on the Internet unfortunately just regurgitated, plagiarized and copy and pasted from somewhere. Even the Manufacturers go back and forth trying to see what the competitors are doing. Basically they are trying to cover the warranty period of their product. Once you get to know you batteries and your charge regimen you should be able to keep them healthy. It's a lot easier to keep them up then to try to recondition them.

BB. · August 2014

Re: What should I do regarding my batteries? (Specific Gravity Query)

If the temperature corrected specific gravity does not rise after an hour or so--They are probably at the peak SG.

What happened with the "low cells"? If they needed equalization, you should have at least seen those rise.

And what was your charging current during equalization--Generally, you want about 2.5 to 5% rate of charge maximum (too high of charging current will overheat the bank--Even 5% can easily overheat a bank if done for hours.

-Bill

ILFE · August 2014

Re: What should I do regarding my batteries? (Specific Gravity Query)

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

Generally you'd know if you have them, they cost $ 8-15 each more or less.

LOL. Definitely not them. The caps are factory.

BB. wrote: »

If the temperature corrected specific gravity does not rise after an hour or so--They are probably at the peak SG.

What happened with the "low cells"? If they needed equalization, you should have at least seen those rise.

And what was your charging current during equalization--Generally, you want about 2.5 to 5% rate of charge maximum (too high of charging current will overheat the bank--Even 5% can easily overheat a bank if done for hours.

-Bill

Nothing changed with the cells, during EQ.
I ran EQ for 1.5 hours.
I attached the image above. It showed over 12 amperes during EQ.

I figure I will run it another 1.5 hours tomorrow. I could probably run EQ twice tomorrow, especially if it is like today was. Very full, very bright sun from about 10am to 2pm. Not a single cloud in the sky.

Would it be a better idea to EQ one battery at a time, and then the other? I can easily do that, if necessary.

BB. · August 2014

Re: What should I do regarding my batteries? (Specific Gravity Query)

I would then equalize only the "low" batteries/cells. No reason (at this time) to stress the rest of the batteries in the bank. They appear to be at their maximum state of charge/SG.

If the low SG batteries do not increase--Then it is what it is--That is your new "target". They may be your first cells to "die" in the next few years (guessing).

-Bill

Blackcherry04 · August 2014

Re: What should I do regarding my batteries? (Specific Gravity Query)

ILFE wrote: »

I attached the image above. It showed over 12 amperes during EQ.

Would it be a better idea to EQ one battery at a time, and then the other? I can easily do that, if necessary.

What is the total amperage available to them ( PV output ) ?? What was the voltage when you started the EQ ?? Generally they will accept a larger current and then begin to drop, just like a regular Bulk / Absorb. After they begin to drop in amperage acceptance lets you know they have stabilized the voltage and if your not getting a SG rise your stuck with hard sulfate that is unremoveable after a hour or so. Surrette says 3 hours, but they know their batteries.

You can question if they ever had 1.265 electrolyte or if some was lost and someone filled it with to much water or they were shipped real low and water was added and that changed the electrolyte.

ILFE · August 2014

Re: What should I do regarding my batteries? (Specific Gravity Query)

BB. wrote: »

I would then equalize only the "low" batteries/cells. No reason (at this time) to stress the rest of the batteries in the bank. They appear to be at their maximum state of charge/SG.

If the low SG batteries do not increase--Then it is what it is--That is your new "target". They may be your first cells to "die" in the next few years (guessing).

I see what you mean. Well, I don't expect them to last forever. For the money I have in them, they have been well worth the money spent, so far.

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

What is the total amperage available to them ( PV output ) ?? What was the voltage when you started the EQ ?? Generally they will accept a larger current and then begin to drop, just like a regular Bulk / Absorb. After they begin to drop in amperage acceptance lets you know they have stabilized the voltage and if your not getting a SG rise your stuck with hard sulfate that is unremoveable after a hour or so. Surrette says 3 hours, but they know their batteries.

You can question if they ever had 1.265 electrolyte or if some was lost and someone filled it with to much water or they were shipped real low and water was added and that changed the electrolyte

7.71a is the Imp. The panels are in series.
I didn't view the voltage immediately after starting EQ. I would (here comes that word) assume about 15.4v or so?

I doubt anyone did anything to these batteries before I got them. The original owner had them for a very short time, before leaving for England. I have had them in my possession the rest of the time.

Cariboocoot · August 2014

Re: What should I do regarding my batteries? (Specific Gravity Query)

High current percentage during EQ indicates the batteries aren't fully charged to begin with.

Instead of expecting a higher Voltage to solve the problem, try a longer time at a lower Voltage (i.e. Absorb level). If you can't get the current to drop below about 2% (no load) of capacity during Absorb, the batteries are toast. You need to get the batteries as completely charged as possible in this way before trying equalization. Otherwise you're just trying to 'Absorb at higher Voltage' which is not advantageous.

CDN_VT · August 2014

Re: What should I do regarding my batteries? (Specific Gravity Query)

One other thing that the gents didn't post was to burp the battery's cells .
The gassing off making bubbles need's you to bump the casing & let the gas bubble come to the top & let the acid now penetrate that area. Luv nudge burps , Not hammer style.

As with one of the post from me long ago "Not all is as it seems after the fact you have left your money with what was sold."
I was buying a special battery in XIAN , Acid Filler try to tell me , 50% acid / 50% sludge (water) on a dry charge new Battery. They make more money with less acid , yad-yada ... The fight started !! , I got my Battery with my acid correct . Thank numbers that Asia has used character / numbers from the western world , I could read the hydrometer numbers !!
Just another thing to think about Paul

VT

ILFE · August 2014

Re: What should I do regarding my batteries? (Specific Gravity Query)

All this has me concerned about one small thing - when the time comes to replace these batteries. I hope I can find some reputable manufacturers / dealers in Thailand. I certainly don't think I will find them here.

vtmaps · August 2014

Re: What should I do regarding my batteries? (Specific Gravity Query)

CDN_VT wrote: »

One other thing that the gents didn't post was to burp the battery's cells .
The gassing off making bubbles need's you to bump the casing & let the gas bubble come to the top & let the acid now penetrate that area.

I posted a picture of negative plate corrosion caused by unburped gas pockets:
http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?15475

--vtMaps

CDN_VT · August 2014

Re: What should I do regarding my batteries? (Specific Gravity Query)

Hydrometer & a quality DVM , Don't leave home without them when in shopping mode for cells. I'm having the hardest time tiring to find quality NiMH 1.5 cells & Li-ion 4.2 cells that are close to what they state. My last purchase of 30.00 from E-bay went into the recycling (round can) after 2 weeks of testing them . sold as 2500 made 150-175 max & some were dead shorts. Yes there is a huge problem buying from Asia.

VT

What should I do regarding my batteries? (Specific Gravity Query)

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