What battery?

767mrN#13 · July 2014

I'm getting close to actually setting this system up (thank to you folks). I have two, 158 Watt panels that will be strung together and going into a Pro-Star 30 controller. What type of battery would you recommend? A single 12 volt or 2, 6 volts?

Chris · July 2014

Re: What battery?

I'd go with 2 X 6 volts

is this an RV set up?

767mrN#13 · July 2014

Re: What battery?

Chris wrote: »

I'd go with 2 X 6 volts

is this an RV set up?

No, but it will do much of the same thing. I'm planning in case there is a long term power outage. If it is in the winter, to keep some lights on, as well as keep the laptop charged and lite television usage. If it happens in the summer, the lights will be replaced with a fan or two to sleep by.

Why 2, 6 volts instead of 1, 12 volt?

Cariboocoot · July 2014

Re: What battery?

The reason for choosing lower Voltage batteries placed in series is because they have greater Amp hour capacity. http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?15989-Battery-System-Voltages-and-equivalent-power

It's all about getting the best value for the capacity required.
For example the output of your two panels is probably around 16-18 Amps. Two 220 Amp hour 6 Volt GC2's in series would be charging at 8% maximum then, which would just about work. But for such a small application there is an advantage in having only one 12 Volt battery: fewer connections. You can get a 12 Volt 185 Amp hour battery which would charge closer to 10% from those panels and therefor possibly work better http://www.solar-electric.com/batteries-meters-accessories/batteries/crdecyinba1/stdecyba/cr185am12vod.html or you can get a 12 Volt 215 Amp hour battery which would be about the same as the GC2's but with no need for an addition connection between two batteries http://www.solar-electric.com/batteries-meters-accessories/batteries/crdecyinba1/stdecyba/cr215am12vod.html Either of these may cost more than a pair of GC2's http://www.solar-electric.com/batteries-meters-accessories/batteries/crdecyinba1/stdecyba/cr225am6vode.html

(Data provided for comparison purposes; not recommendation.)

So first determine how much capacity you need, then determine what's the most economical 'package' for it.

Mustang65 · July 2014

Re: What battery?

JUST AN EXAMPLE FOR WHAT YOU CAN EXPECT:
My RV has
- (1) 250 watt Solar panel (mounted on roof)
- (1) MorningStar MPPT 60 - Solar Charge Controller (for future expansion)
- (1) 1500 Watt Ramsond PSI Inverter
- (2) Trojan T145 (260Ah) 6 Volt batteries

I can watch 4 hours of TV at night
The ceiling exhaust fan runs on low when we are sleeping
LED lights are on in the evening

* There is additional drain from
- The fridge DC controller
- The CO alarm
- The Radio's display (always on)

* During the day
- The ceiling fan is running (on high)
- The Radio or TV is playing
- Charging, 2 Cell phones, 2 Laptops, 1 Tablet

I am usually charged up by 2-3PM, later if cloudy

Each morning I am still above 12 volts.

Don

2013 Jayco Eagle 284BHS
250Watt Grape Solar Panel, MorningStar MPPT 60 Charge Controller
1500 Watt Ramsond PSI, 2 Trojan T145 Batteries (260Ah)
2 - AirSight Wireless IP Cameras (used as rear view cameras)
EnGenius WI-FI extender, D-Link wireless (n) modem
MagicJack Internet Phone
2012 Ford F150XLT, EcoBoost w/3.73
157" Wheel base, HD Towing Package
-

767mrN#13 · July 2014

Re: What battery?

Mustang65 wrote: »

JUST AN EXAMPLE FOR WHAT YOU CAN EXPECT:
My RV has
- (1) 250 watt Solar panel (mounted on roof)
- (1) MorningStar MPPT 60 - Solar Charge Controller (for future expansion)
- (1) 1500 Watt Ramsond PSI Inverter
- (2) Trojan T145 (260Ah) 6 Volt batteries

I can watch 4 hours of TV at night
The ceiling exhaust fan runs on low when we are sleeping
LED lights are on in the evening

* There is additional drain from
- The fridge DC controller
- The CO alarm
- The Radio's display (always on)

* During the day
- The ceiling fan is running (on high)
- The Radio or TV is playing
- Charging, 2 Cell phones, 2 Laptops, 1 Tablet

I am usually charged up by 2-3PM, later if cloudy

Each morning I am still above 12 volts.

Don

2013 Jayco Eagle 284BHS
250Watt Grape Solar Panel, MorningStar MPPT 60 Charge Controller
1500 Watt Ramsond PSI, 2 Trojan T145 Batteries (260Ah)
2 - AirSight Wireless IP Cameras (used as rear view cameras)
EnGenius WI-FI extender, D-Link wireless (n) modem
MagicJack Internet Phone
2012 Ford F150XLT, EcoBoost w/3.73
157" Wheel base, HD Towing Package
-

This is good stuff. I've wondered about final capacity. And these batteries would be wired in a series, or in parallel?

Cariboocoot · July 2014

Re: What battery?

767mrN#13 wrote: »

This is good stuff. I've wondered about final capacity. And these batteries would be wired in a series, or in parallel?

There's only one way to get 12 Volts out of two 6 Volt batteries; wire them in series.
(Anyone coming in with a comment about buck boosters is gonna get kicked.)

767mrN#13 · July 2014

Re: What battery?

Mustang65 wrote: »

JUST AN EXAMPLE FOR WHAT YOU CAN EXPECT:
My RV has
- (1) 250 watt Solar panel (mounted on roof)
- (1) MorningStar MPPT 60 - Solar Charge Controller (for future expansion)
- (1) 1500 Watt Ramsond PSI Inverter
- (2) Trojan T145 (260Ah) 6 Volt batteries

I can watch 4 hours of TV at night
The ceiling exhaust fan runs on low when we are sleeping
LED lights are on in the evening

* There is additional drain from
- The fridge DC controller
- The CO alarm
- The Radio's display (always on)

* During the day
- The ceiling fan is running (on high)
- The Radio or TV is playing
- Charging, 2 Cell phones, 2 Laptops, 1 Tablet

I am usually charged up by 2-3PM, later if cloudy

Each morning I am still above 12 volts.

Don

2013 Jayco Eagle 284BHS
250Watt Grape Solar Panel, MorningStar MPPT 60 Charge Controller
1500 Watt Ramsond PSI, 2 Trojan T145 Batteries (260Ah)
2 - AirSight Wireless IP Cameras (used as rear view cameras)
EnGenius WI-FI extender, D-Link wireless (n) modem
MagicJack Internet Phone
2012 Ford F150XLT, EcoBoost w/3.73
157" Wheel base, HD Towing Package
-

Two of the batteries you have would be about $400. Starting off I'm going to go a little cheaper on the batteries. But if I understand correctly, I need:

1) Two 6 volt batteries
2) Deep cell
3) Connected in a series

Any suggestions on the battery cables to hook them up?

I appreciate all the input. My background in electrical is about zero.

Cariboocoot · July 2014

Re: What battery?

767mrN#13 wrote: »

Two of the batteries you have would be about $400. Starting off I'm going to go a little cheaper on the batteries. But if I understand correctly, I need:

1) Two 6 volt batteries
2) Deep cell
3) Connected in a series

Any suggestions on the battery cables to hook them up?

I appreciate all the input. My background in electrical is about zero.

Battery cable (as with all wiring) has to be large enough to handle the expected current draw and also to keep Voltage drop over the distance involved to a minimum. That's about all I can say in general terms.

767mrN#13 · July 2014

Re: What battery?

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Battery cable (as with all wiring) has to be large enough to handle the expected current draw and also to keep Voltage drop over the distance involved to a minimum. That's about all I can say in general terms.

And if I understand correctly you should look for shorter cables as power drops the longer distance it has to travel. Correct?

Cariboocoot · July 2014

Re: What battery?

767mrN#13 wrote: »

And if I understand correctly you should look for shorter cables as power drops the longer distance it has to travel. Correct?

Yes: longer distance = lower Voltage for a given wire size & current.

When sizing for battery cables to an inverter think about maximum inverter output at its minimum input Voltage. Quite often 12 Volt systems run fine - until you try to load them heavily. Surge of starting a refrigerator, for example, can cause a momentary Voltage drop that to the inverter looks like the battery is dead so it shuts down.

mike95490 · July 2014

Re: What battery?

For batteries, since you are just starting out, don't have lots of cycles planned (UPS duty) and don't have a detailed watt-hour plan for the loads, I'd say a pair of 6V 100ah golf cart batteries from a "big box" store, would be a good starter set. They are about $100 apiece. To go for "special" batteries with 60 more ah of storage, and have to spend $400 per battery, would be silly in my book. you get 75% of the battery for 25% of the cost. Hard to argue to spend much more for them.

The cable, auto parts stores often have some pre-made cables that could go under the bolts on the battery. Or a golf course would likely have them.

vtmaps · July 2014

Re: What battery?

767mrN#13 wrote: »

Any suggestions on the battery cables to hook them up?

As Cariboocoot mentioned, it depends on the current you will be passing through them. Your controller can put out almost 30 amps... that means you should use #8 wire between the battery and controller. Will you have an inverter? The wire to the inverter depends on the size of the inverter. Virtually all inverters come with recommended wire gauges, maximum lengths, and fuse sizes.

--vtMaps

ZoNiE · July 2014

Re: What battery?

Cariboocoot wrote: »

There's only one way to get 12 Volts out of two 6 Volt batteries; wire them in series.
(Anyone coming in with a comment about buck boosters is gonna get kicked.)

:D:D:D

767mrN#13 wrote: »

And if I understand correctly you should look for shorter cables as power drops the longer distance it has to travel. Correct?

Your best bet is to goto the auto parts store and buy a short 1 foot cable that has the ring terminal on both ends on it already. The six volt batteries will more than likely have 5/16" or similar threaded studs. The cables at the auto parts store will be 2/0 or similar size with the correct lugs on them.

Connect it between (-) on battery #1 to (+) on battery #2. You now have a 12 V Battery Bank.

Then, using the largest gauge, shortest wire the charge controller will take, (probably # 6 AWG) connect:
Battery #1 (+) to charge controller (+)
Battery # 2 (-) to Charge controller (-)
If the batteries are in an enclosure, be sure it is vented and that the charge controller is NOT in the same enclosure to prevent corrosion/explosion hazards from the Hydrogen gas...

vtmaps · July 2014

Re: What battery?

ZoNiE wrote: »

be sure it is vented and that the charge controller is NOT in the same enclosure to prevent corrosion/explosion hazards from the Hydrogen gas...

Hydrogen gas is explosive, not corrosive. Corrosion is caused by sulfuric acid mist that escapes the battery while gassing.

--vtMaps

ZoNiE · July 2014

Re: What battery?

vtmaps wrote: »

Hydrogen gas is explosive, not corrosive. Corrosion is caused by sulfuric acid mist that escapes the battery while gassing.

--vtMaps

... As it's being carried by the H Gas...:p

Lexicon7 · July 2014

Re: What battery?

Hi Guys, I'd like to chime in here too as I also need batteries.. Coot and all the guys here have already told me to replace my Walmart EverStart 94 109ah TC batt that came with my rig so I'll be ready to do that on Aug 1st. finally.. I recently installed a Wagag Tech 600W Inverter in my sytstem which appears to be working well but last night a 12 inch fan on high speed ran really slowly so I took it in the house and the same fan on the grid ran like high speed should run... Now I'm wondering about the grounding issues on the inverter or just bad batt!!!?

Lexicon7 · July 2014

Re: What battery?

That's WAGAN TECH of course and I know it's a cheapy because it came with clips and instructions on using it "under the hood" of your car!

BB. · July 2014

Re: What battery?

As always, start measuring the voltage at the DC Input terminal to the inverter... And the AC output.

Usually, I would expect the AC inverter to shut down when the input is at a minimum voltage (around 10.5 volts--or battery "DEAD"). Sometimes, poor connections (like the clips) will cause the inverter to cycle on/off as the load drops the voltage, inverters shuts off, voltage rises, inverter restarts...

If the inverter has a stable, but low, output voltage (below ~100 VAC), then it is probably the inverter that is bad.

-Bill

Cariboocoot · July 2014

Re: What battery?

Something that isn't clear: did the fan run at the proper speed from the inverter to start with and then slowed down, or never ran at full speed?

Lexicon7 · July 2014

Re: What battery?

Coot & Bill, well first off the fan ran like a slug from the time I fired it and I know this fan so I immediataly tested it on the grid which proved without a doubt that the fan was good.
The cheapy inverter is hard wired in because they provided clipped 10AWG and I used 8 gauge.
I did a careful installation and installed a 30a fuse on the pos side to the batt.
I guess it's not that big a deal actually because obviously I am working with crappy components and wasting the forums time with this nonsense. I have a vacate date now on my house on Aug 1st so it all begins then.. I'll also have funds to do work on my rig then as well...
I'm pretty sure I'll go with the little Honda eu2000 just to get me going and then take my time to work on the solar properly... Trimetric 2025rv, new "forum approved" inverter, probably 2 T-105's since they have such a great rep and good ah spec...

Also, just to be clear. No I still don't have the AH Usage Worksheet but I know it's just me and I need the breathing machine at about 130 peak and then the Directv receiver and a new 19" Vizio or the like.. Not ever at the same time... There is nothing else to power... Just those two and maybe that dam fan on its own in the day time... Thanks for being there...

Cariboocoot · July 2014

Re: What battery?

I suspect the problem is the inverter: probably poor-quality MSW which the fan motor 'sees' as low Voltage (RMS of the choppy waveform is lower than it should be).

Lexicon7 · July 2014

Re: What battery?

I'd have to agree with that.. I had forgotten to mention that indeed there was a beeping from the inverter during the initial installation when I was placing the ring terminals on the batt for the very first time. The instructions indicate this as a "low batt" or batt problem sensing warning on the inverter circuit board. I'll go with plan B Honda for now and we'll talk again soon when I can do this right... I love solar and I AM learning.... Thanks again for sharing your expertise...

ZoNiE · July 2014

Re: What battery?

I have a wagen 700 W. Beeping is low voltage. I use it to run a 4 cup coffee pot, a PA system, and sometimes some lighting and fans. Not a bad little MSW for the money. I bought it at pep boys 15 years ago, but I don't use it much. The LED will show red if low as well, but will run...

I was looking at hardwiring it. The ground pins on the two 120VAC outlets are not connected to anything, so grounding the case to the vehicle frame does not get you grounded outlets...

Lexicon7 · July 2014

Re: What battery?

ZoNie, hey thanks for that... So you are saying the ground pin hole is just for looks?
Well I'll be... I could not remember where I picked up the thing until I read your post...
It was Pep Boys indeed..! I've done a lot of thinking on my little system & I should just get that Trimitric 2025rv so I know what the frack is going on...

AuricTech · July 2014

Re: What battery?

Lexicon7 wrote: »

ZoNie, hey thanks for that... So you are saying the ground pin hole is just for looks?
Well I'll be... I could not remember where I picked up the thing until I read your post...
It was Pep Boys indeed..! I've done a lot of thinking on my little system & I should just get that Trimitric 2025rv so I know what the frack is going on...

I'd go with the Trimetric TM-2030 and (either now or down the road as cashflow allows) upgrade your charge controller to the Bogart SC-2030 charge controller.

Lexicon7 · July 2014

Re: What battery?

AuricTech, Wow that is the pair I've been looking for! I love these forums and appreciate all the shared knowledge that is available.. I have vast technical knowledge from my 3 professional areas of expertise but none of it covers what I am learning here.
On your recommendation: My CC seems to be working great but I have known from the start that it is not the correct unit for my rig as I build up my existing solar system. It is the very simple little ASC with its one red light and its 4 place terminal board. I had keyed on the 2025 because it bolted right up to the wall and needed no gang box enclosure but now see that the 2030 has that as well but also "talks" to the CC you mentioned. I'll be making more upgrades beginning in August and will start with that dynamic duo... Thanks again!

Lexicon7 · July 2014

Installing the 2030 Charge Controller & Trimetric Batt Mon Systems?

Ok so now I have more questions for the quarum ::: Before I touched the system that came with my rig, I did extensive reading and understand how important wire, wire size & wire run length is on these components. I recently installed an inverter I had on hand just to jump in and get my "hands on" and after careful consideration, I noted that the existing components being the little ASC CC and the SM55 Siemens mono panel were both 8AWG so that's what I used for the inv.
Reviewing this new data on the 2030 pair I see they recomend a JW something or other (don't want to go look at the specs again because this script will all disappear when I get back) wiring harness.
I could use some guidance on wiring the new components so I can get it right when installation time comes! Do I need to buy the harness from Bogart or ?? or can I just use no8 wire again from my local elec shop?

One more question on the subject of wire: I am working on a Lance Squire 4000 TC and as you may know, the brilliant design at Lance was to put the battery bay basically under the kitchen sink! So this is where lots of 12V wiring is located in my rig. I guess we're stuck with that but my inverter is very close to old water lines that need to be replaced (just another upgrade waiting in the wings!) and that is making me nervous so I'll be moving it out of there soon. In following the rules, I placed it there because "inverter as close to battery as possible!" was what I read.. CONTINUED

Lexicon7 · July 2014

Re: What battery?

So my question is, using number 8 wire, would it make that much difference to the system in terms of V loss if I installed it a few more feet away from the batt in order to mount it in a more suitable and "dry" location or do I need to go to 6awg? Thanks....

Cariboocoot · July 2014

Re: What battery?

And people wonder why I think the designers of automotive electrical systems are a few cards short of a deck. How many brain cells does it take to comprehend water and electricity do not play well together? :roll:

Were it me I'd be relocating and rewiring. Yes, I know that is a giant pain in the anatomy because they do not build those things for service.

Wire sizes. Don't assume 8 AWG is the solution to everything. Especially not for inverters. It's good to about 50 Amps, and on 12 Volts that's around 600 Watts. So how big is the inverter?

8 AWG can also be larger than necessary for some applications, come to that.

Figure out the current on each circuit that needs to be altered. Figure out the change in distance. Apply a V-drop calculator and get the results.

Keep in mind some wire sizes and distances, such as those used for communication purposes (i.e. shunt to battery monitor, RTS sensor) can be fixed (small range of variation allowed) and altering them can give false readings.

Oh and get yourself some good heat-shrink tubing with the glue inside to seal the crimp fittings on to the wire. You only want to do this once. Probably not even that much.

Lexicon7 · July 2014

Re: What battery?

Coot, inv is 600W.. I have some heat shrink tubing.. Let's have a look here it is Chicago 5/16" x 8' from Harbor Freight. Wasn't sure about using it and then forgot I had it so will use... thanks

What battery?

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