System keeps going down

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islandboy43444
islandboy43444 Solar Expert Posts: 45 ✭
in Off Grid Solar & Battery Systems #1
I need help on finding whats causing my system to go down , 15- 240 watt 24 volt panels,3 magnum 4448 stacked , 2 fm 80 , 24-85-21 battery, I don't know if my settings in the fm 80 need to be changed from default, and the rite settings in the magnum router that controls charging my biggest load is a 4ton central unit 17steer rating it. what can I do to get more run at nite time.:confused:
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
    #2
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    Re: System keeps going down

    What does the battery voltage profile look like? Is it the inverter shutting down because of high/low voltage? What is the specific gravity? What are the voltages of each cell (battery) during charging / discharging (do you have a bad cell or cable?)... Etc.

    "Going down" is not very clear what you mean.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • islandboy43444
    islandboy43444 Solar Expert Posts: 45 ✭
    #3
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    Re: System keeps going down

    system causes lights ant tv to go off and on then everything shuts off around 10pm
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  • islandboy43444
    islandboy43444 Solar Expert Posts: 45 ✭
    #4
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    Re: System keeps going down

    the voltage is at 52volts on a 48volt system
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  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    #5
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    Re: System keeps going down

    Hi island ..,

    What is the input voltage to the FM CCs in full sun when doing Bulk charging?

    You have 15 PVs. Given that there are very few 240 -ish watt PVs that are real 24 V PVs (these are usually a 20 V nominal PV, with a Vmp of around 30 V), how are the strings of PVs configures? What is the exact part number, or at least, what is the Vmp of each PV?

    An, as Bill asked, what are the SGs of your batteries ... by the part numbers, these look like Flooded batteries.

    Thanks, Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
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  • islandboy43444
    islandboy43444 Solar Expert Posts: 45 ✭
    #6
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    Re: System keeps going down

    the panels are in 5 strings of three, on the fm 80 the voltage is around 98 normally and goes to 124 when there is no clouds, yes it is a flooded 48 volt 800ah @ 6hrs and 1120 @ 20hrs fork lift battery.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #7
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    Re: System keeps going down

    Systems 'go down' for one of three reasons: 1). overload on the AC side; 2). insufficient DC power; 3). defective components.

    Assuming nothing has changed on the load side, if the inverters are shutting off it's because of insufficient DC power. This can occur momentarily; just long enough for them to go off, even though the battery Voltage reads high enough.

    So let's look at the specifications. The first worry I have is "3 magnum 4448 stacked". That is a lot of inverter: 13.2 kW worth. It should have about 1320 Amp hours of battery, and you have 1120 Amp hours.

    You have fifteen 240 Watt panels on two FM80 controllers? Obviously not divided up equally between two controllers. In strings of three we'd expect Vmp around 90. I don't see why you'd have two controllers unless you have arrays pointing in different directions. One FM80 could handle sixteen 240 Watt panels on a 48 Volt system. Fifteen of the panels would be 3600 Watts and ought to output about 58 Amps peak, which is too low for 1120 Amp hours of battery.

    If the questions we ask seem odd it's because the system as described doesn't make sense, starting with the three stacked inverters.
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  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    #8
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    Re: System keeps going down

    island..,

    Thanks for replies,

    BUT, have you measured the SGs of each cell of the battery recently??
    What are the SG readings?
    Hope that you have a couple of Hydrometers.

    Have you measured SGs? What are the SG readings?? -- to be redundant.

    EDIT: OH, and YES, most probably, your Charge settings on the FM CCs need to be reviewed and changed.
    Forklift batteries usually have about 1.280 SG electrolyte, and need higher Absorb and probably Float voltages.
    QUESTION - How long is your Absorb time, and how do you end Absorb -- by time or End Amps?

    Please? Thanks, Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
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  • islandboy43444
    islandboy43444 Solar Expert Posts: 45 ✭
    #9
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    Re: System keeps going down

    The stacked inverters is to run a 4ton A/C, how much more panels do I need to get the rite charge out of the fm 80, I used two fm 80 to get more charge into the battery.
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  • islandboy43444
    islandboy43444 Solar Expert Posts: 45 ✭
    #10
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    Re: System keeps going down

    my absorb time is 4hrs and 53 amps
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  • islandboy43444
    islandboy43444 Solar Expert Posts: 45 ✭
    #11
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    Re: System keeps going down

    what would be the recommended settings and can I use the chargers in the inverters to assist with charging I think I read where I can tie in the utility and couple the grid voltage to come in at set times for charging
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #12
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    Re: System keeps going down
    islandboy43444 wrote: »
    The stacked inverters is to run a 4ton A/C, how much more panels do I need to get the rite charge out of the fm 80, I used two fm 80 to get more charge into the battery.

    As I mentioned before this does not make sense with the amount of panels you describe.
    Two FM80's on a 48 Volt system would have up to 5kW of PV each.

    Sounds to me like your main problem is you're running about half as much PV as you need. Doubling up the charge controllers does not increase the current unless there's enough PV behind it to provide the power.
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  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    #13
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    Re: System keeps going down

    Hi islandboy..,

    Thanks for some added info.

    HOWERVR:

    1. What are the SG readings for your battery bank??????? ????? ?? ?
    2. What type of Hydrometer are you USING? Or, are you using a Refractometer?
    3. You mentioned a current -- 53 A, IIRC, this must be your Max battery charge current, and NOT the EA setting in the CCs.

    Since your batteries are Flooded, it is quite easy to determine the correct Charger voltage and time (or EndAmp) settings based on the State Of Charge of the battery. It is very important to measure the SG of EVERY cell, and log this info into your Battery Logbook. This recorded info can help you follow trends, and make small changes as necessary.

    If you happen to not have a Hydrometer or Refractometer, this is OK, as long as you borrow one very soon, or buy two or three at an Auto Parts Store very, very soon, and, PLEASE USE IT.

    Am assuming that you simply do not have a way of measuring SGs, and that is why these continuing questions have not been answered.
    Perhaps I am being a bit too strident -- obnoxiously pushy. But, batteries are expensive, Hydrometers are dirt cheap, and will help you set your Chargers to exactly the correct voltage and Absorb time (or set correct EA). These settings are essential. And with clearly too little PV power for this battery bank, monitoring SG is even more crucial.

    Forget if this has been covered, but you need a Battery Temp Sensor for every Charge source, or make sure that each Charger can share any BTS that you are using.

    Thank You very much for any info that you can supply. Apologies for the attitude here. Good Luck! Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
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  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    #14
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    Re: System keeps going down
    Vic wrote: »
    Apologies for the attitude here.

    What attitude? If he wants help from us folks who are not at his site, he must provide enough info for us to help him. That's common sense, not attitude.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
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  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    #15
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    Re: System keeps going down
    vtmaps wrote: »
    What attitude? ... common sense, not attitude.

    --vtMaps

    Hi vt ..,

    Yea, but at times have posted in a Thread, and the OP simply disappears. This has happened a few times here, and quite recently, several times on the MN Forum. Realize that the world does not revolve around me, and what I say, but have been thinking that my posts can have a bit of a hard edge to them, and perhaps excessive certainty to them, etc.

    A poster named Mike has not returned to the MN Forum for at least a week, and some of my posts in that thread were perhaps too certain ... and so on. Thanks, Obnoxious Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
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  • islandboy43444
    islandboy43444 Solar Expert Posts: 45 ✭
    #16
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    Re: System keeps going down

    Vic no I don't have a hydrometer, will get one in the morning when stores open there closed on sundays in the Bahamas where I am, when I take the readings I will post them for your input what should the cc be set to because you are that was the end current on the cc. you mentioned bts I have not used them because I have three (one for each inverter) and its only one huge battery made up 24 2volt cells.
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  • zoneblue
    zoneblue Solar Expert Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭✭
    #17
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    Re: System keeps going down

    Im presuming you didnt do the original install? This is a big system and warrants care and a basic level of expertise to maintain correctly in order to protect your investment.

    If you dont have a professional handy, then you need to do some serious homework on system design and maintenance, right now!
    Running the system down each day til the inverter cuts out, is not a viable way to run a system, and if you keep that up, you will very shortly be replacing your batterys.

    We can help, but ultimately its your system, and it all depends on your ability to understand your system.

    You should do first, what we do here with all new systems., and thats ask the single most important question: What are your required loads in Wh/day? Then what are your insolation figures, in equivilent sun hours per day, for each season?
    1.8kWp CSUN, 10kWh AGM, Midnite Classic 150, Outback VFX3024E,
    http://zoneblue.org/cms/page.php?view=off-grid-solar


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  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    #18
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    Re: System keeps going down

    islanboy43444,

    Thanks for the info!

    OK, great, please do get a Hydrometer, two or three are better (IMHO), as one may get broken, and sometimes you can vote the readings ... but at least one. It is preferable that they have a glass outer tube, and a glass float with real SG numbers on it. But, you may not have a huge selection available in your closest town.

    The BTS is very, very important, as well. Especially when the temperatures change quite a lot over a period of a week or more, or with large seasonal changes. You CAN manually compensate for the battery temperature. For many Flooded batteries, the compensation is about -- 5MV/ degree C CHANGE from the Standard temperature. This temperature is often 25 C -- 77 F. But perhaps for your batteries the Standard temp is 80 F -- about 26.5 C. A battery that is warmer than this Standard temperature will have a reduced terminal voltage, and a cool one will have an increased terminal V. On your 48 V bank, this voltage will change about negative 0.120 V/degree C ( 120 milliVolts/C).

    Hope that one of the FM CCs came with the BTS. If so plug it into one of the FMs, and attach the sensor about half down the side of one of your batteries in the center of the bank. Then you can see what the compensation is for that CC, and manually change the value for the Absorb V on all of the other charge sources. If each charger came with its own BTS, then simply place each BTS on the same battery, close together, and each charger will do a good job of automatically compensating the Absorb and Float voltage, and perhaps the EQ voltage (this is often a menu option of weather to comp EQ V).

    One added question; Do your batteries consume some water over a period of a month or two -- how much Distilled Water do you add to the bank every month or two?

    How old are these batteries?

    I forgot that you are in the Bahamas. You probably have wall-to-wall sun on many days, although you may have frequent storms that subtract from the good sun.

    More later, thanks for the info. Forklift batteries are tough, and think that you can get things adjusted for the best battery health, and good run times at night. Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
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  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    #19
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    Re: System keeps going down
    Vic wrote: »
    Hope that one of the FM CCs came with the BTS. If so plug it into one of the FMs, and attach the sensor about half down the side of one of your batteries in the center of the bank.

    Vic,

    I have very little experience with forklift batteries, but I have read that it may be difficult to use them with BTS because the battery jars are encased in an outer casing... I recall that someone posted that they used a glass thermometer to measure electrolyte temperature.

    I know that some BTS (like Magnum) bolt to the battery terminal, but Outback is meant to attach to the side of the battery.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
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  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    #20
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    Re: System keeps going down

    Hi vt..,

    Good point, believe that most of these batteries are in "cans". Have seen some in RE use that are individual 2V cells, but that is uncommon.

    Personally would place the BTS on the top of the Jar, if there is room (yes, this exposes the BTS to possible messiness of electrolyte dribbles/spatter). Really dislike the terminal BTSes due to possible warming from high current charging -- not the end of the world ... and there is still the potential electrolyte messiness.

    Some use IR Thermometers to measure electrolyte temps, but this still means a continuing manual compensation. Or at least a compensation of the compensation manually.

    It is quite possible that in the Bahamas that the rate of change in the average temps is fairly slow, and not that large seasonally ... dunno.

    Thanks for that reminder. Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
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  • islandboy43444
    islandboy43444 Solar Expert Posts: 45 ✭
    #21
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    Re: System keeps going down

    Vic got the readings and they are not good at all all 24 cells read between 1150 -1180 on a hydrometer, it is in the recharge state. What is the settings you recommend I put in the cc and the charger in the inverter. I need to get this bad boy charged back up, I also after taking the readings shut the system down and went back on city to give it total charge with no load.
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  • DanS26
    DanS26 Solar Expert Posts: 267 ✭✭✭
    #22
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    Re: System keeps going down

    Is it possible the your 4 Ton high SEER (meaning high LRA..and going higher with age) HVAC system is contributing or may be the cause of your problem?
    23.16kW Kyocera panels; 2 Fronius 7.5kW inverters; Nyle hot water; Steffes ETS; Great Lakes RO; Generac 10kW w/ATS, TED Pro System monitoring
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  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    #23
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    Re: System keeps going down

    Hi islandboy,

    Thank you for getting the Hydrometer.

    Good that you are focusing on getting this battery charged as soon as possible.

    For this recharge, you will want a LONG Absorb time. Possibly 10 or 12 hours, if you have Grid power. Would guess that you would want an Absorb voltage of about 59 volts. Would suggest a higher Absorb V, but expect that the batteries are warm.

    And, during Absorb, the battery temperature will rise, especially during a long Absorb.

    If you have BTSes for the inverter and FMs, place them on the top of one battery near the center of the bank -- expect that these batteries are in metal containers as vtMaps noted. It is possible that even if these batteries are in metal containers, placing the BTSes on the side of the container may be as good as any other approach.

    BUT, for this charge the Absorb V matters little, as long as it is in the 59 -60 V range. You MUST get this charge under way.

    Later, the exact Abs voltage and time can be adjusted.
    You will want to watch the SG readings periodically. But right now the battery needs a long charge.

    Some inverters have a Bulk V setting, which you could set to be the same as the approximate Absorb V setting of 59 - 60 volts.

    My guess is that your target SG is 1.280 at 25 to 26 degrees C electrolyte temperature. SG readings need to be temperature compensated, but the compensation is fairly small. your batteries are in the 25-ish percent State Of Charge range. So, getting them charged is very important!

    Let us know how you are doing. Thanks, Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
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  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    #24
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    Re: System keeps going down

    islandboy,

    Here is some information on taking SG readings with a Hydrometer:

    http://support.rollsbattery.com/support/solutions/articles/4347-measuring-specific

    The chart for SG versus State Of Charge is for batteries with a bit lower SG electrolyte, but this Surrette page is a good general guide.

    Be sure to rinse the Hydrometer with distilled water after each measuring session, or at least within a few hours of use. An un-rinsed Hydrometer will build up a sticky residue, which causes air bubbles to stick to the sides of the outer tube, and on the float. This causes errors in measurements. In time the errors become very large.

    Good Luck, Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
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  • islandboy43444
    islandboy43444 Solar Expert Posts: 45 ✭
    #25
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    Re: System keeps going down

    nah its a brand new lennox 17 steer(less than 2 weeks old) rating designed to run on pv systems with a maximum aperage of 16amps
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #26
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    Re: System keeps going down
    islandboy43444 wrote: »
    nah its a brand new lennox 17 steer(less than 2 weeks old) rating designed to run on pv systems with a maximum aperage of 16amps
    You definitely have a charging and battery health issue now. Based on what your trying to power it would be a good time to find your total daily use and make sure your design is able to meet your needs. If you keep deficit charging that battery you'll always have problems. The charge / discharge cycle is a balance, sounds like you have a grid connection to help keep it in balance, you just have to find the settings to keep it there. Till you can get the SG's up to 1.280 ( 100% ) your not going to be able to tell.
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #27
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    Re: System keeps going down

    Whatever other problems you have, the biggest is the 4 ton Lennox. The biggest mini-split I have ever specified for a very large home is 1.5 ton. Off-grid cooling is very different from what your HVAC guy knows or whoever recommended it.

    islandboy43444 wrote: »
    nah its a brand new lennox 17 steer(less than 2 weeks old) rating designed to run on pv systems with a maximum aperage of 16amps
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • DanS26
    DanS26 Solar Expert Posts: 267 ✭✭✭
    #28
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    Re: System keeps going down
    islandboy43444 wrote: »
    nah its a brand new lennox 17 steer(less than 2 weeks old) rating designed to run on pv systems with a maximum aperage of 16amps

    You may want to look into it a little bit closer. As I understand the latest and greatest high rated SEER units, they require much greater LRA's than the older technologies. The reason they get the higher SEER's is that the compressors especially the scroll types require much higher start up amps. They may run with lower amps but that may be deceiving.
    23.16kW Kyocera panels; 2 Fronius 7.5kW inverters; Nyle hot water; Steffes ETS; Great Lakes RO; Generac 10kW w/ATS, TED Pro System monitoring
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #29
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    Re: System keeps going down

    If it is 17 amps @ 240 vac then no matter what the algorithm or technology it is 4,080 watts that must be accounted for at some point.
    DanS26 wrote: »
    You may want to look into it a little bit closer. As I understand the latest and greatest high rated SEER units, they require much greater LRA's than the older technologies. The reason they get the higher SEER's is that the compressors especially the scroll types require much higher start up amps. They may run with lower amps but that may be deceiving.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • DanS26
    DanS26 Solar Expert Posts: 267 ✭✭✭
    #30
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    Re: System keeps going down
    Dave Angelini wrote: »
    If it is 17 amps @ 240 vac then no matter what the algorithm or technology it is 4,080 watts that must be accounted for at some point.

    If I was the OP, I'd put a meter on that new Lennox and see what it actually pulls. Nameplate ratings may not be accurate in his particular installation such as a manufacturing defect that is causing the unit to pull higher amps.

    It appears the OP's problems started after installing the new AC....I'd look there first for the problem.
    23.16kW Kyocera panels; 2 Fronius 7.5kW inverters; Nyle hot water; Steffes ETS; Great Lakes RO; Generac 10kW w/ATS, TED Pro System monitoring
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  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    #31
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    Re: System keeps going down

    Hi islandboy..,

    Curious how you are doing with the battery recharge/SG readings. Hope all is going well. Hope to hear of your progress. Good Luck, Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
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