OT - Submerged Pressure Switch

stmar
stmar Solar Expert Posts: 373 ✭✭✭
in Grid Tie and Grid Interactive Systems #1
This is off topic but I assume a lot of forum users live in rural areas which necessitates water wells and their inherent issues. The elbow fitting going into our pressure tank deteriorated, hard water, and gave way flooding the crawl space. The pressure switch was completely submerged. I would have thought it would have tripped the breaker or the controller overload, it did neither. The way we found out was that the water pressure was fluctuating. Does anyone know why the breaker or overload would not have tripped?
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #2
    Re: OT - Submerged Pressure Switch

    Submerging the switch would not necessarily cause an overload condition. You're at the mercy of exactly how much conductivity was created between the two power lines to the pump (assuming a standard dual connector switch). Random chance.

    I expect you will now repair the plumbing and run a tube up the wall to put the switch and wiring a couple of feet above the possible water level. Yes, this is often done.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,639 admin
    #3
    Re: OT - Submerged Pressure Switch

    In general, circuit breakers only trip if there is excessive current.

    Losing water through a leak--Just looks like a pumping load. Depending on the pump, high water flow/low pressure may increase power usage (centrifugal pump) or may reduce power usage (fixed displacement pump)--But, in general, neither will blow a typical protection breaker or fuse.

    If you have a flooded switch box--It would require a conductive path to pull excessive current. Fresh water has very high resistance--And a flooded switch/circuit probably would not pull enough current to pop a breaker. If the water was contaminated (salt water, corrosion products from near by metal)--Again, not likely to short circuit.

    The only breaker that would stand a good chance of opening/tripping would be a GFI (ground fault interrupter) type. It would only take approximately 5-10 mAmps (0.005-0.010 amps) current flow between hot and ground. In the US, a typical GFI breaker would cost around $50.

    However, with a well pump, it is possible that you may have "leakage current" in normal operation high enough to trip a breaker.

    Otherwise--Installing a moisture sensor in the area would be more reliable to detect major leaks.

    Some folks will connect a small light (bright LED, etc.) to the pump circuit so they can see if the pump is running when they don't expect it (like in a pump house facing the home). This helps prevent leaking plumbing from killing the battery bank.

    You could also get a timing relay--I.e., turn on alarm/turn off pump if it runs for more than 5 minutes continuously (or whatever make sense for your system needs).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • stmar
    stmar Solar Expert Posts: 373 ✭✭✭
    #4
    Re: OT - Submerged Pressure Switch

    The "flood" happened Saturday, luckily I have a pump and it took most of the day to pump it out. I let it dry overnight and found the problem Sunday. Ace was the only place open so just replaced the elbow to get water so wife could start her week clean (clean happy wife makes happy life). I was thinking about extending the switch pipe to get it above the flood plane.
    I guess I thought there would be more conductivity in the water. I know I have a good ground to the switch and it is 240 VAC standard pressure switch with line (power) and load (controller) connections.
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  • jonr
    jonr Solar Expert Posts: 1,386 ✭✭✭✭
    #5
    Re: OT - Submerged Pressure Switch

    I agree with Bill - try a GFCI on it.

    I am available for custom hardware/firmware development

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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,639 admin
    #6
    Re: OT - Submerged Pressure Switch

    When I was a kid, we had a humidifier that used a pair of graphite blocks (as I remember) that were ~4 inches long and 1/2 inch square. Add an 1/8 teaspoon of salt to a ~gallon of water, and it would draw enough current to boil/steam the water. Still did not pop a breaker.

    I guess they still make these types:

    http://www.amazon.com/Vicks-1-5-Gallon-Vaporizer-Night-Light/dp/B0000TN7ME

    The good thing about these types is that they turn off automatically and do not "grow" mold and such inside and spray it around. The water boiling sterilizes.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #7
    Re: OT - Submerged Pressure Switch

    I had a Air Conditioner condensate pump sitting inside a cooler to keep it from sweating, It overflowed and was still running in a foot of water. if I hadn't seen the fan turning on the end of the motor shaft I'd probably reached in and got a good shock. I now have a overflow hole in the cooler.
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  • stmar
    stmar Solar Expert Posts: 373 ✭✭✭
    #8
    Re: OT - Submerged Pressure Switch

    "Otherwise--Installing a moisture sensor in the area would be more reliable to detect major leaks."
    Any suggestions on types of sensors? I am definitely going to extend the pressure switch pipe but a sensor would be another comfort. Our water is so hard that it corrodes galvanized fittings in about 5 years, I could not find a brass elbow since it was Sunday and we live in a small town. May buy brass (was even thinking of PVC) the next time I am in the big city and replace at my leisure instead of wading through the mud!!
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,639 admin
    #9
    Re: OT - Submerged Pressure Switch

    Are you mixing galvanized and copper fittings without using an insulated pipe union?

    On the copper side--changing everything to copper/brass/plastic would be better--And keep the galvanized on the other side of the insulated union.

    An alternative to a diaelectric union is to use a minimum of 6 inches of brass piping. In many codes, either is allowed. I our codes, we need to put a copper bonding cable across the dielectric union for electrical safety (across the hot/cold water pipes to the water heater).

    You may end up having to see which works for you. There are lots of discussions back and forth about the problem. Many people have observed rust build ups in the dielectric coupling.

    There there is the whole argument about what should be used for the sacrificial anode in the water heater (aluminum, aluminum/zinc, or magnesium). :roll: This same guy says brass pipe does not work well as a copper/iron transition.

    If you have real problems with plumbing corrosion--You can read about Impressed-current cathodic protection systems (ICCP anode systems). No nothing about this site--But interesting:

    http://www.cathodicprotection101.com/

    Take care you pick.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • stmar
    stmar Solar Expert Posts: 373 ✭✭✭
    #10
    Re: OT - Submerged Pressure Switch

    The pressure tank had a galvanized elbow from the factory and the Tee going into it is brass or copper and is about 6". My set up is:
    PVC from the well goes into the brass/copper Tee that screws into the pressure tank's galvanized elbow, other side of the Tee has a brass valve to PVC, filter, water softener that feeds the house. So I can minimize the issue with different fittings? I suspected this but was under the gun this weekend and this gives me a few years to research and determine a solution.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #11
    Re: OT - Submerged Pressure Switch

    Does your PT Tee look something like this: http://www.homedepot.ca/product/pressure-tank-tee-installation-kit/995953

    Even with brass isolation between any galvanized and copper the galvanized is destined to give up first. You can switch it out for a brass elbow (expensive) but chances are the tank fittings are steel too. Eventually something is going to give up. All you can do is slow the process down.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,639 admin
    #12
    Re: OT - Submerged Pressure Switch

    The pressure tank is probably Iron/Steel. So copper fitting directly into the tank is a no go.

    As I understand, either stay all steel on the tank side and use a dielectric union to brass/copper transition.

    But, interestingly enough, you are using PVC for your cold water plumbing? And the only non-galvanized material around the tank is a brass valve to PVC plumbing connection--Which should not be a big issue--As I read it.

    In the end, having spare parts on hand is going to be helpful for "consumable" items.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • stmar
    stmar Solar Expert Posts: 373 ✭✭✭
    #13
    Re: OT - Submerged Pressure Switch

    Yes that is similar to the Tee we have. We were talking about changing out the fittings every 5 years. I guess we could put it on the calendar "change fittings 2019" and transfer to each year's calendar. I definitely will have a 1-1/4 elbow on hand from now on, this is the second time it has happened and it was different pressure tanks so that must be the weak link in the system. Living in the country has it's issues along with the perks.
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  • stmar
    stmar Solar Expert Posts: 373 ✭✭✭
    #14
    Re: OT - Submerged Pressure Switch

    If I can find a 1-1/4 PVC threaded short elbow that may be the way to go, at least the corrosion factor at that link would be minimized and they are cheap so if it did not work out you are not out anything but labor and my labor is cheap nowadays, just ask the wife, lol.
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  • stmar
    stmar Solar Expert Posts: 373 ✭✭✭
    #15
    Re: OT - Submerged Pressure Switch

    Found this on Home Depot site and it is stocked in their stores:
    http://www.homedepot.com/p/Basement-Watchdog-Battery-Operated-Water-Alarm-BWD-HWA/100038838
    For $10 you can't go wrong, kind of like a smoke detector but detects water. I am going to pick one up the next time I am near a store.
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