12v for life build. No inverter. No PWM/MPPT.

BB. wrote: »

Regarding charge controllers... The Shunt Type (Flexcharge) are actually not the best way to charge a battery bank. Series type (PWM, MPPT, etc.) are more accurate and will give you a longer battery life (plus series charge controller systems are slightly less likely to fail in a dangerous manner--A failed shunt controller or shunt load will over charge the battery bank and can cause a fire--And why the NEC would require two shunt controllers in parallel--the second being a backup for the first).

Amish choose a "non-electric" lifestyle as a religious choice (electricity tends to support devices that distract from worshiping God).

If your power usage is small, yes, you can get by with a 12 volt system OK (some lights and whatever else you want to power). If you uses a refrigerators, then the system is large enough that 24 volts (minimum) tends to be more cost efficient (from an engineering point of view--12 volt systems require a lot of copper and short cable runs, in general).

It sounds like "dirty electricity" is a concern over AC electromagnetic fields (and Radio Frequency "radiation") as opposed to pollution from burning fuel.

In some ways--It is really a "pick your poison" set of choices. EM or Particulate/Chemical--In general, most of us have picked avoiding the P/C type of pollution. There are lots of real/documented affects caused by burning fuels (especially in-efficiently--but sometimes even very efficient fuel burning produces bad chemical pollution too, such as NOx emissions). The Amish use lots of diesel and various forms of combustion--Which (in my view) is much less healthy than using solar+batteries+inverter (or even utility power) or "clean electricity" (ignoring the problems with mining, recycling of lead batteries, etc.).

And there are folks that choose to avoid EM pollution. There are folks that convinced that EM emissions are unhealthy or even have direct effects on their bodies that are very negative (where more of us believe that EM emissions are usually a "problem" for working with radios and sensitive electronics--And that EM emissions are only dangerous when they are high enough to cause physical problems--such as early radar systems that leaked enough microwaves to cause cataracts in their operators).

Everything has some sort of emissions--Even a simple diode in a DC circuit causes a lot of RF emissions. So, with solar power, your best bet is to minimize those emissions through proper design techniques.

If you are trying to reduce EMI (EM emissions/interference). I would suggest you go with a MorningStar PWM controller with the "Telecom" noise reduction function... It is a PWM controller, but instead of switching 100s to 1,000s of times per second, it only switches "on/off" once every few seconds. This was designed for telephone type systems to reduce audio noise in the power system. It will also greatly reduce EMI too.

And because they are usually installed as a "series" type solar charge controller, they are much better at maintaining proper battery charging.

Otherwise, to reduce EMI--Keep wires running in "pairs" next to each other (or even give them a "twist" every 12 inches or so). That will keep their radiation (from electronic switching) to a minimum (and is actually a good design practice anyway).

If you don't keep the wire pairs next to each other (DC + and -, AC Hot and Return), the wiring acts like an antenna and makes it more efficient at radiating EMI. Also, it makes the system more suseptable to nearby lightning strikes and damage from same.

If you are very concerned, run the wiring inside metal conduit (metal pipe)... That reduces emissions to almost unmeasurable levels (look up Tempest Systems--The process the military uses to "harden" their electronics against EMI/EMP).

-Bill

icarus wrote: »

Go back to square one, regardless of your desire to go "off grid"! Do a proper load calc, INCLUDING system loses to determine the battery bank size and the charge regimen. If you find you daily use is larger than you think, and therefore requires a larger battery bank, you may find that 12 volt is a problem simply because of the number if parallel batteries requires and the a inability to even the load and ethe charge currents through those batteries.

As a general rule of off grid living, a couple of things apply. First, people always underestimate thier loads, these loads grow with time a at t he same time people almost always over estimate thier insolation capacity. By no being a slave to the power company, you now become a slave to the battery companies, and ergo is only makes sense to design and build a system that works well for you, and indeed works well for the battery bank, as it is not only the sinlgle most expensive piece of the puzzle, but will also need to be replaced sooner than you thing,(at likely more money!)

As a side note, anyone who thinks living off grid "because it is cheap" is hopelessly naive about the true costs. Yes, there are people who live quit happily with minimalistic system, but the list of "do withouts" is much larger than folks realize. You hear thee stories all the time of folks who stuck it to the power company and are happily living off grid on a couple of car batteries and a couple of HF solar panels. Looking more deeply into thier life, you realize they are running one reading light, running a IPad and keeping their food in the lake. (oh wait...that's me! Not!)

Good luck and keep in touch,

Tony

Cariboocoot wrote: »

We used to live without electricity at all. It can be done.
Now that I'm too old for such foolishness I'm sure glad I know enough about electricity to make use of it in a sensible and economic manner.

verdigo wrote: »

Funny. The Amish in my neck of the woods seem to be going solar in a big way. I don't think they have a problem with electricity as much as getting a monthly bill. Something to do with being indebted I think. Even if it is for a day or a month for what they use day to day. Diesel gen sets are pretty common as well.

waynefromnscanada wrote: »

Well I guess at this point, all we can do is wish you good luck. Many of us here on this forum either live off grid, or have solar to assist our grid consumption, but there may be a few who have serious experience living with 12 VDC only, and without what the industry would consider proper charge controllers etc. Hopefully there is someone with such experience who can and will offer their experience as a guide for your journey.
By the way, my great grandfather, before modern medicine and electricity, died a horrible slow death wracked with pain. Arthritis seized his joints and he spent his final years in bed, in agony, and being abused by his eldest son. When he died at the age of 62, he had been locked in the fetal position for a long time and my grandfather had to help break his legs so the casket could be closed. And no, unfortunately I'm not making this up. His signet ring was passed down to me, and I still wear it in his honor.

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Use of 12 VDC is a mistake. Inverters and AC power in general is not dirty or dangerous. The only time anyone uses 12 VDC is when they are trapped into it due to circumstances. You will regret your decision to limit yourself in this way.

But no one has to listen to me just because I've got a bunch of education and 50 years experience. It's your money; waste it however you wish.

PS: The Outback Flex Max 60/80 is an MPPT charge controller. There is no way of charging your batteries properly without either a PWM or MPPT type controller.