Final decision near

hemmjo · February 2014

I most certainly appreciate all of the help many of you have given me. I MUST make a final decision by Monday Feb 10, so I can order the items I need. I am already past the deadline I had set for myself. But you guys keep feeding me more information, I do appreciate it as I said, but now my head may ... explode.

I am now stuck between the OutBack FLexMax 80 and the Midnight Classic 150. The cost is almost the same considering with the OBFM 80 I have to buy additional battery temp sensor and battery monitor. With the Classic 150 the battery temp sensor is included and the battery monitor adapter is much less than an external monitor for the OBFM80.

Ease of operation is a consideration as I may at some point need to walk someone through troubleshooting over the phone.

Another point that may make a difference. The controller will have NO ACCESS to internet. Will this be necessary for controller? I read but did not fully understand the need software upgrades on the Classic 150? I can get limited internet access if I go into Luperon or Puerta Plata where I can download software if necessary, but it is not an easy task.

Having no experience with either controller, any input on them would be appreciated.

At this time my shopping list includes;
Items in blue must be purchased in the Dominica Republic

Panels
4 - 255 watt 24 volt panels and mounting hardware

Panel wiring to - breaker/combiner box
Ground clamps
#6 ground wire
Ground rod
Lightening protection Delta LA302DC
#10 Panel wire extensions/MC4 connectors
MidNight Breaker box
midnight DC breakers

Charge Controller
OutBackFlexMAX 80
outback remote battery temp sensor
Battery monitor

OR

MidNite Classic 150
Midnight current sense module

Controller wiring - to battery bank
#4 cable and ends
100 amp Bussmann Circuit switch/breaker

Battery bank
4- 6 volt 225 AH
#2 battery inner-connect cables
#2 cables to inverter
150amp battery fuse

Inverter

12 volt, 1000w Kisae SW1210
150 amp Bussmann Circuit breaker/switch

AC distribution.
120v 15 amp plugs into inverter,
14ga wire
120v ac outlets

12 DC distribution.
Output fuse block, spare fuses
LED area lights
14 ga wire
connectors

Misc
Hydrometer
Voltmeter
DC clamp on amp meter
Once again, Thanks for your assistance,

John
http://villagemountainmission.org/

Cariboocoot · February 2014

Re: Final decision near

Well my MX60 has been in use for years with no Internet access and it still works fine. It has never had any upgrade because it worked correctly right out of the box. No battery monitor either. A lot of the things people tout (even on this forum) are not actually necessary to having a well-functioning system. Internet and battery monitor are two of them.

The Classic's integrated battery monitor offers a functional advantage in that it can shut off Absorb when the battery is actually full instead of using arbitrary time and/or End Amps. How much this will improve performance is subject to debate. It also has other functions such as "follow me" (for adding additional controllers and keeping them in sync) and "waste not" (for taking advantage of 'surplus' solar power). Whether or not these will be advantageous to you is something only you can determine.

I could make use of these extra features, but as I said the ol' MX60 has been doing the job for a long time now and I doubt it's going to quit any time soon. My install is also seasonal and in a cold climate (except in Summer) so the batteries aren't used or heated as much as they would be where you are.

westbranch · February 2014

Re: Final decision near

Same comments apply to the Classic, right out of the box. I have 2 in use right now, doing winter maintenance charging.
They have not been updated yet due to limited access, so not a lot of headaches about bugs found in the new software.. I just don't have the ability to communicate with a Whizbang jr, without having the latest firmware needed to make it function properly.

ps I still have an old MX60 on another small system, works fine.

Ralph Day · February 2014

Re: Final decision near

My MX60 is ten years old, still working, but showing it's age. The button board became unusable. Outback sent me a new one, with detailed instructions on replacement. It requires complete removal from the installation to work on the bench. There's a core re-imbursment for the old board. When putting it back together I pulled the tiny 12v fan out, it was tired too. I cut the top out of the housing and mounted a 120v muffin fan drawing air through the unit during operational hours (sun up to sun down via a timer). The original fan requires the same teardown to replace. Not as well thought out as the Outback inverters with their field replacable boards.

With the fan done I can't see any reason not to continue with the MX, unless I put in more PV. If it's not broke (or only a little broke) why fix it?

Now, my SWWP H80 wind turbine might be toast, and replacement is limited. Once warm weather returns I can tilt the tower down and see if it's a repair or replacment. These bearing lasted 5 years, originals lasted 5 years. Small wind is a pain, but nice to have on windy nights. 1/4 of my renewable energy came from the wind over the last 10 years (650kwhrs/yr).

Ralph

mike95490 · February 2014

Re: Final decision near

Only thing I can say, unless you need the 12V for DC appliances, why not a 24V based system ?

Oh, and does the flexmax need the HUB to control it ?

Cariboocoot · February 2014

Re: Final decision near

mike95490 wrote: »

Only thing I can say, unless you need the 12V for DC appliances, why not a 24V based system ?

I totally agree.

Oh, and does the flexmax need the HUB to control it ?

You mean a MATE and no, it doesn't.

hemmjo · February 2014

Re: Final decision near

In response to "why not a 24v based system?"

I am going to start with a 12v battery system because we are a small not for profit organization, and someone donated a 12v inverter. I plan to use it for at least a year as we do not have funds in this years budget for a good 24 volt inverter. I do plan to switch to a 24 volt system as soon as funds are available for a better inverter. That is why I want to be sure I have all of the other components in place. When the time comes, all I should have to do is to rewire the batteries to 24 volt, reconfigure the charge controller and hook up the new 24 volt inverter. The larger wires size necessary for the 12 volt system will work fine for the 24 volt system.

The system you have all helped me to assemble will allow me to collect data for a year while as our staff uses the new facility. Then as hard data comes in we can make adjustments.

Right now the only 12v loads are a few LED lights in the building, and 2- 12 volt cigarette lighter sockets for participants to charge their digital cameras. Right now I am looking for the simplest, least expensive way to shut down the 12 volt LED lighting/recharge stations if the batteries get too low. I know I could use a relay connected to the output of the inverter, but that will burn a few watts. Is there a simpler way?

As always thank you for your input,

John
http://villagemountainmission.org/

westbranch · February 2014

Re: Final decision near

Do you have access to Schneider/Square D products? If so the QO line of AC circuit breakers are certified to 48 volts DC.
Just get the smallest QO Distribution Center (''fuse box") available and wire it in. Use the CB as a cut out switch.

hemmjo · February 2014

Re: Final decision near

westbranch wrote: »

Do you have access to Schneider/Square D products? If so the QO line of AC circuit breakers are certified to 48 volts DC.
Just get the smallest QO Distribution Center (''fuse box") available and wire it in. Use the CB as a cut out switch.

I was thinking more along the lines of something automatic in case batteries get low.

vtmaps · February 2014

Re: Final decision near

hemmjo wrote: »

I was thinking more along the lines of something automatic in case batteries get low.

You need to buy a low voltage disconnect (LVD) or voltage controlled relay.

Virtually all inverters have a LVD built in, but it is to protect the inverter, not the battery (too low to protect battery). Many of the more full featured inverters have an adjustable LVD, so you can set it to a higher voltage.

--vtMaps

waynefromnscanada · February 2014

Re: Final decision near

Well I can't say anything about the FlexMax, have only seen pictures of them, but I've had an MX-60 for 7 years and it always worked as designed, no defects, just an old design with a few quirks in the way it is designed to operate that sometimes caused problems in my personal system. Finally replaced it with a Classic-150 and am amazed at how much better it's designed and works over the old MX. And this includes heat sinks that use convection to carry away heat, leaving it would appear, little time the fans would have to run. I can say, I'm very glad I went with the Classic. It's light years ahead of the MX in so many ways.
AND the boards are easily user replaceable, as are the fans. Can't believe the difference in so many different ways.

Cariboocoot · February 2014

Re: Final decision near

waynefromnscanada wrote: »

Well I can't say anything about the FlexMax, have only seen pictures of them, but I've had an MX-60 for 7 years and it always worked as designed, no defects, just an old design with a few quirks in the way it is designed to operate that sometimes caused problems in my personal system. Finally replaced it with a Classic-150 and am amazed at how much better it's designed and works over the old MX. And this includes heat sinks that use convection to carry away heat, leaving it would appear, little time the fans would have to run. I can say, I'm very glad I went with the Classic. It's light years ahead of the MX in so many ways.
AND the boards are easily user replaceable, as are the fans. Can't believe the difference in so many different ways.

Yes, it's almost as if the designers of the venerable MX60 said "let's make it even better" and did.

waynefromnscanada · February 2014

Re: Final decision near

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Yes, it's almost as if the designers of the venerable MX60 said "let's make it even better" and did.

EXACTLY! And what a fine job they did! Not kidding, they must / should be, very proud of their product.

hemmjo · February 2014

Re: Final decision near

I am never sure if I should start a new thread or continue the old one when the focus of the question changes...

I have ordered most of the components and am finalizing the schematic so I can be sure to get all of the little pieces I need. Most of which I can get locally.

I ordered a MidNite Classic 150 and other associated parts. The "basic hook-up diagram" on page 25 of the classic manual is a bit cluttered, there is no index to the numbers referenced on the drawing, and is does not have an inverter in the mix. So I have tried to decipher it and make my own.

It is attached. I have questions about how to finish it up.

1) Is it best to have a Positive and Negative buss to connect everything to?

2) If I put a shunt in the system for current measurements, I assume I need at least a negative buss so all current to and from the battery passes through the shunt? Or do I just want to measure current entering the batteries from the charge controller?

3) where is the lightening protection installed?

Feel free to make suggetions

Thanks again for your time and expertise!

John

Cariboocoot · February 2014

Re: Final decision near

hemmjo wrote: »

1) Is it best to have a Positive and Negative buss to connect everything to?

This depends on how many connections in total need to be made. If you've got one battery string, one controller, and one inverter stacking the lugs for the wiring on a single battery bolt is not a problem. The more connections, the more difficult it becomes (especially with parallel battery strings where you want to try and keep the current flow even through all).

2) If I put a shunt in the system for current measurements, I assume I need at least a negative buss so all current to and from the battery passes through the shunt? Or do I just want to measure current entering the batteries from the charge controller?

Same as above, really. The shunt for the battery monitor simply goes on the negative side between the battery and everything else so it is possible to keep track of all current in/out.

3) where is the lightening protection installed?

You only need lightning protection if damaging strikes are likely in your area. They will not protect against a direct hit, but will reduce the possibility of damaged from the stray Voltage that can occur when strikes are happening around you. They are usually connected to the PV leads (combiner box) and AC runs (inverter output) as the most likely to pick up the stray Voltage but also may be connected to the battery lead as well. Different units are needed depending on the Voltage the circuit normally runs at, which is why MidNite makes a 115, a 300, and a 600 model.

zoneblue · February 2014

Re: Final decision near

You look like your on the right track. I would definately recomend midnites MNDC box, it solve all of those wiring issues, and point you in the direction of a good breaker setup.

You can see how i did it (before i knew about mndc) here:

http://zoneblue.org/cms/page.php?view=midnite-classic-review

One thing from your schematic. the ground wires cant daisy chain, they must all go to a single ground bus. This is a code requirement.

Final decision near

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