Generac Gaurdiian 8kW off-grid.

RSHobsonRSHobson Registered Users Posts: 8
I have an GS8048 Outback Raidian with an FM80 charge controller; an 8kW Generac Generator 5882 with Nexus; and 8 Surrette S530 Batteries. Returning the generator is not an option. The 6kW EcoGen was simply not affordable.
What I would like to know is how to wire the Generator to autostart from the Radian Inverter. It is setup to autostart when it loses "Grid" Power. The information is out there on YouTube, but I would like to see it drawn out. It is easier for me. Can I simply plug a small 12V/115V inverter into the grid side of the generator and turn it off when I want auto start?

All the help is appreciated,

Steve

Comments

  • NorthGuyNorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    Re: Generac Gaurdiian 8kW off-grid.

    There are two ways to wire Generac to auto-start.

    1. Use two yellow wires - N-1 and N-2 and connect them to the output of your Outback inverter. To start generator, you need to break either N-1 or N-2 (or both) thereby simulating power outage. You can do that with a relay or with generator start unit. The drawback of this method is that if inverter breaks the generator will start and will run forever.

    2. Convert generac to two-wire start unit. I have a note from Generac how to do that. I can post it along with explanations if you need. If you do, you will need to disconnect N-1 and N-2 yellow wires and run a pair of wires (I just re-used disconnected yellow wires) from generac to the relay or generator start. When you connect these wires, generator starts.

    You also need to provide power for trickle charge. To do that, connect the blue T-1 wire to L1 output of inverter.

    I also wired the transfer switch in, so that it disconnect generac and let it run for a minute without load when stopping. I'll explain how if you're interested.
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Generac Gaurdiian 8kW off-grid.

    Welcome to the forum Steve.

    I hate to say it, but I think you are the first forum member to actually have a Radian!

    Autostart is a matter of interfacing the generator's need with the inverter's capability. This is sometimes not easy. However, a second inverter should not be required.

    Just to be clear, what you have now is a a Generac that senses line Voltage and autostarts when that is gone. Then its automatic transfer switch picks up the load. Is this right?

    If so, what you need is:
    1). an AC connection from the Radian to the Generac which mimics grid power to the generator.
    2). a relay controlled by the Radian's AGS system which will interrupt this AC line.

    With that, when the Radian calls for the gen to start the relay will drop AC from the Generac causing it to think there's no utility and fire up. When the Radian's AGS determines there is sufficient charge in the batteries/generator run time it should again switch the relay putting AC to the Generac's grid input. This should make the generator believe utility power has been restored and it should go through normal shutdown procedure.

    I do not have wiring diagrams for either the generator or the inverter and may be understanding your question wrong. I think ChrisOlsen has at least experience with the Generac, and he was considering a Radian (but didn't buy one possibly due to the AGS system design) and may have further insight into the situation.
  • ChrisOlsonChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    Re: Generac Gaurdiian 8kW off-grid.

    NorthGuy covered the two methods used to convert grid-tie standby generators to off-grid with an inverter. I like doing the two-wire conversion at the controller myself, but either way works.

    Steve, it will be really cool to hear about your Radian system. As 'coot mentioned I wanted one really bad - just some issues I was unsure of, so we ended up not buying one. User experiences - especially off-grid - are awesome. So please keep us all posted on all the details of your system! With your small battery bank, it would be an excellent candidate to find out how Gen Support really works in the Radian - and maybe save you from buying more battery capacity in the long run :-)
    --
    Chris
  • RSHobsonRSHobson Registered Users Posts: 8
    Re: Generac Gaurdiian 8kW off-grid.

    Hi all,

    Northern Guy.
    I would like a copy of how Generac says to do the two wire conversion. I want to keep the system as uncomplicated as I can. If I modify the generator to a two-wire start system, then the generator could be replaced in the future with a normal two wire start generator. If that makes any sense. You know, the provebial Bus theory. I will let you guys know how the Radian system works out. I took the hardware up to the new house last night and plan on starting the install on Sunday.


    Steve
  • NorthGuyNorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    Re: Generac Gaurdiian 8kW off-grid.

    Here's the five pages of the document.

    As you can see, there's 3 versions. I had version 2. Generac dealer knew nothing about required wires, so I found these contacts on Digi-Key. I crimpled them to the wire and then stuck them into the housing. Make sure you crimple well. If a wire comes off after insertion, it's very hard to remove the contact from the housing. Also, make sure you take the black rubber protector off before inserting wires. Put it back when wires are an place.

    Once you do the "PROGRAMMING", you must set the switch to "AUTO". Generac will stop responding to power outages and will only start when you connect the two wires attached.

    When you connect the wires, it'll still wait for 10 sec (or whatever delay you set) and then start. When you disconnect the wires, it'll wait for about a minute (which it would run without load) and then stop. It's a good idea to make sure that the load is removed before switching it off.

    Wires 23/194 (if I remember numbers) - white and red, will output 12V when the generator is running. They are designed to operate the relay in the transfer switch. The relay is about 1W. You can use them in AGS if needed, or you can still use them to operate the transfer switch to disconnect the generator from the inverter when it's starting and stopping. The later will require small modifications to the transfer switch wiring.

    Do not forget to connect blue wire to 120V AC. It is necessary to trickle charge the battery. Without it, Nexus will drain the battery.
  • RSHobsonRSHobson Registered Users Posts: 8
    Re: Generac Gaurdiian 8kW off-grid.

    Thanks for the info NorthGuy. I installed the GS8048 Radian Inverter/Charger, FM80 Charge Controller, Load Center, Hub, and Mate 3 last weekend. www.apelectric.com has the Guardian two-wire conversion pins available as a kit with 2 wires. It also has a copy of the .pdf for the hook-up and programming that you gave me. I received the wires today. Next weekend I plan on hooking up the generator, making the modifications to it, installing the batteries, and programming the Mate3/Radian. So far-so good. I will let you know how it works out. YouTube video's are very helpful..


    Steve
  • Out ThereOut There Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Generac Gaurdiian 8kW off-grid.

    Hi everyone! I realize this is a somewhat older thread, but it has suddenly become applicable for me. I've just purchased a Guardian 8kW as my back-up source. My Trace 4024 will initiate the start sequence (most easily) with a two wire start. Most of this [thread] I get... I want to know if I really need to wire in the whole transfer assembly (I know this genset is designed for grid-tie applications, but the price for a never used unit like this was just too good to pass up)?
    All comments appreciated.
    Brian

    8 Solec SQ-080 panels on Zomeworks rack, AIR 403 400 W wind turbine, Trace 4024 power center, C-40 charge controller, 8 Trojan L-16s. Sometime next year: MicroHydro, baby!
  • NorthGuyNorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    Re: Generac Gaurdiian 8kW off-grid.
    Out There wrote: »
    Hi everyone! I realize this is a somewhat older thread, but it has suddenly become applicable for me. I've just purchased a Guardian 8kW as my back-up source. My Trace 4024 will initiate the start sequence (most easily) with a two wire start. Most of this [thread] I get... I want to know if I really need to wire in the whole transfer assembly (I know this genset is designed for grid-tie applications, but the price for a never used unit like this was just too good to pass up)?

    You don't have to. But if you do, the transfer switch will disconnect the generator very quickly, which will help you with transition back to the inverter, and, at the same time, your generator will run a minute or so without a load (which people believe is a good practice).
  • Out ThereOut There Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Generac Gaurdiian 8kW off-grid.
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    You don't have to. But if you do, the transfer switch will disconnect the generator very quickly, which will help you with transition back to the inverter, and, at the same time, your generator will run a minute or so without a load (which people believe is a good practice).
    Thanks so much for the reply! When the Trace 4024 charger has maintained the bulk charge for a preset absorption time, the inverter takes over the AC loads, then disconnects the load on the generator and allows for a 40 second cool down period before opening the contacts and actually shutting down the engine. If the cool-down is the only concern, I suspect I'll be okay with 40 seconds and not bother with wiring in the transfer switch. I can then sell that puppy and reduce my overall cost. What do you think?
    Brian
  • NorthGuyNorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    Re: Generac Gaurdiian 8kW off-grid.
    Out There wrote: »
    Thanks so much for the reply! When the Trace 4024 charger has maintained the bulk charge for a preset absorption time, the inverter takes over the AC loads, then disconnects the load on the generator and allows for a 40 second cool down period before opening the contacts and actually shutting down the engine. If the cool-down is the only concern, I suspect I'll be okay with 40 seconds and not bother with wiring in the transfer switch. I can then sell that puppy and reduce my overall cost. What do you think?

    You certainly can do that. And if in doubts, you can sell it only after everything is up and running.

    Do not forget to connect the blue wire to the output of the Inverter (assuming your inverter doesn't switch neutral). This is necessary to maintain the generator battery charged. Alternatively, you can install a (solar?) battery maintainer.
  • Out ThereOut There Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Generac Gaurdiian 8kW off-grid.
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    You certainly can do that. And if in doubts, you can sell it only after everything is up and running.

    Do not forget to connect the blue wire to the output of the Inverter (assuming your inverter doesn't switch neutral). This is necessary to maintain the generator battery charged. Alternatively, you can install a (solar?) battery maintainer.
    Hmmmmm.... I was reading and wondering about that need... that the Nexus would drain the battery. I was trying to figure out if a weekly run would charge it sufficiently (I really hate the idea of that additional load always on the inverter). I like the idea of a solar charger! I may have to make firewood from a particular tree to have that happen.... but.... :cool:
    Brian
  • NorthGuyNorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    Re: Generac Gaurdiian 8kW off-grid.
    Out There wrote: »
    Hmmmmm.... I was reading and wondering about that need... that the Nexus would drain the battery. I was trying to figure out if a weekly run would charge it sufficiently (I really hate the idea of that additional load always on the inverter). I like the idea of a solar charger! I may have to make firewood from a particular tree to have that happen.... but.... :cool:

    It does drain the battery. I once disconnected mine by mistake and it started complaining about low battery very quickly.
  • ldiorioldiorio Solar Expert Posts: 47 ✭✭
    Re: Generac Gaurdiian 8kW off-grid.
    RSHobson wrote: »
    I have an GS8048 Outback Raidian with an FM80 charge controller; an 8kW Generac Generator 5882 with Nexus; and 8 Surrette S530 Batteries. Returning the generator is not an option. The 6kW EcoGen was simply not affordable.
    What I would like to know is how to wire the Generator to autostart from the Radian Inverter. It is setup to autostart when it loses "Grid" Power. The information is out there on YouTube, but I would like to see it drawn out. It is easier for me. Can I simply plug a small 12V/115V inverter into the grid side of the generator and turn it off when I want auto start?

    All the help is appreciated,

    Steve

    hi Steve,
    just found your posts about Radian and Generac -- I have a 20KW generac w Nexus and a whole house transfer switch
    have been thinking of getting a Radian unit with batteries and panels(a 48V system)
    have looked at the XW6048 unit too but have heard there were software problems and the unit is non USA

    so am tending to prefer the Radian-one reason is that i have a 240 volt well pump and like the 2 AC inputs
    would you still get a Radian if you knew about the generator issues
    lou
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Generac Gaurdiian 8kW off-grid.
    ldiorio wrote: »
    ....
    have looked at the XW6048 unit too but have heard there were software problems and the unit is non USA
    .....

    Odd, I'm off-grid, in the USA, and have xw-6048. I have no sw issues (I've heard some of the grid-interactive settings are
    twitchy and non-intuitive), but I get 240VAC out of it for my well pump just fine.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • NorthGuyNorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    Re: Generac Gaurdiian 8kW off-grid.
    mike95490 wrote: »
    Odd, I'm off-grid, in the USA, and have xw-6048. I have no sw issues (I've heard some of the grid-interactive settings are
    twitchy and non-intuitive), but I get 240VAC out of it for my well pump just fine.

    I'm off-grid too, and XW6048 works very good for me.

    When I had grid, I did have problems with grid interactions, but that was just their design that doesn't let you minimize grid usage, not any software bugs.
  • Out ThereOut There Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Generac Gaurdiian 8kW off-grid.

    I've been trying to convert my Guardian 8kw to a two wire start, but ran into a problem and I hope you can help to steer me in the right direction. I located this thread (containing the instructions on the 2 wire conversion) and printed off the instructions to take home with me. My controller (Nexus?) does not have a connector like any of the three described (I think there's a 23 pin, a 5 pin and another). Mine is a 16 pin (if I remember correctly) with 5 wires actually going into it. There's a second connector with 4 wires.
    I can (locally) break the red wire running from the starter solenoid (12 vdc hot), which will stop and start (when reconnected) the genset, provided I leave the switch set to "Manual". When I tried to run a two-wire set up (two conductor #16 multi-strand) back to my inverter room (about 50-60 feet away) as an extension of this, the resistance in that length of wire would not allow the generator to start and, instead, I got an error light ("RPM sensor Loss"). Do you think a 12 vdc relay would work?
    The wire was a difficult pull through 1-1/4" buried conduit (with three #6 conductors already running in it), but is intact. I do not have the transfer switch wired in, and am unsure of how to "program" the set.
    Brian
  • BigJoeBigJoe Registered Users Posts: 1
    Re: Generac Gaurdiian 8kW off-grid.

    I have a similar problem to recent posts and not sure where to go from here.
    I have a 20kw generac guardian generator with 200 amp nexus "smart" ATS. I recently put in a AC coupled grid tied PV system with battery backup using 2 6048 sunnyisland inverters with midnite E panels.
    I have a SMARB installed on the master e-panel. I want to incorporate the generac system into the sunny island generator function to autostart the generator on demand.
    I have talked to SMA tech line, Midnite tech line, generac tech line and searched forums on the topics.
    I have getting two different versions of a fix from SMA and Midnite. (generac was useless - they just say you cant do it).
    I would appreciate any help. I get hints and pieces from everyone I talk to but not the whole picture. The best I have figured is I need to take the N1 and N2 wires from the nexus transfer switch and then?
    SMA says to connect N1 and N2 to relay 1 on the sunnyisland.
    Midnite says to connect them to the SMARB board (there is already a control wire going from the SMARB to the digin and Battvtgout on the SMA)
    Generac says it is a 4 wire system and it cant be done.
    I am also told I need 240v wires going from the transfer switch to the gen in leads on the smarb so the sunnyisland can differentiate between grid in power and gen power to do its thing.
    I am working with an electrician who is a smart and great guy but this whole system is new to him (no pV / inverter experience).
    Any help or pointing me in the right direction for help would be appreciated.
    Also I would appreciate how to get the info on converting the generac system to a 2 wire start that was mentioned early on this thread.
    Scott

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    AC coupled grid tied with battery backup. 5 kw solarworld panels, 2 sunnyisland 6048 with midnight E-panels, SMARB board. Trying to incorporate pre-exsisting generac 20kw guardian with 200 amp nexus ATS.
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