Old Virginia Shallow Well Pump

olneyotterolneyotter Registered Users Posts: 4
Please lend me a little help here - this looks like the best forum for it!

I purchased a peice of land that has an old shallow well on it. The well pipe is 2.25" in diameter and is up against a tree line outside my cattle fence. The suction pipe is a peice of 3/4" PVC witha check valve at the bottom of it and the water is about 22' down from the surface. I have no power there at all nor do I have the ability to run a long extension cord over to this area.

My needs are to water 3-4 head of cattle in that pasture. (about 75-100 gallons per day - they don't drink it all at once, so it's consumed over a day long period) I also have the ability to gain water off a barn roof into a water tank to assist in water collection.

I have heard about 12v and 24v DC systems with Solar Charging systems, but have also heard that they can't lift 20' of head. Is this true? What set up makes the most sense while not breaking my bank?

-OlneyOtter

Comments

  • DanS26DanS26 Solar Expert Posts: 243 ✭✭✭
    Re: Old Virginia Shallow Well Pump

    Have you looked around here:

    http://www.solar-electric.com/sun-pumps.html
    18.2kW Kyocera panels; 2 Fronius 7.5kW inverters; Nyle hot water; Steffes ETS; Great Lakes RO; Generac 10kW w/ATS, TED Pro System monitoring with PVOutput.org
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,025 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Old Virginia Shallow Well Pump

    surface pumps are limited to about 24' of suction, deeper, and the "vacuum" they create, just vaporizes the water surface into fog, and you get nothing. So for 22', I think you will have to drop a pump into the hole.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

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  • tmarchtmarch Solar Expert Posts: 143 ✭✭
    Re: Old Virginia Shallow Well Pump
    olneyotter wrote: »
    Please lend me a little help here - this looks like the best forum for it!

    I purchased a peice of land that has an old shallow well on it. The well pipe is 2.25" in diameter and is up against a tree line outside my cattle fence. The suction pipe is a peice of 3/4" PVC witha check valve at the bottom of it and the water is about 22' down from the surface. I have no power there at all nor do I have the ability to run a long extension cord over to this area.

    My needs are to water 3-4 head of cattle in that pasture. (about 75-100 gallons per day - they don't drink it all at once, so it's consumed over a day long period) I also have the ability to gain water off a barn roof into a water tank to assist in water collection.

    I have heard about 12v and 24v DC systems with Solar Charging systems, but have also heard that they can't lift 20' of head. Is this true? What set up makes the most sense while not breaking my bank?

    -OlneyOtter
    My advice would be to drill another well with casing and screen then install a pump that is designed to pump whatever you may need now and in the future. A small expense for having water for livestock and possibly your personal use in the event of a failure at you other well if you have another well. Without knowing more that's a suggestion.
  • jcheiljcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: Old Virginia Shallow Well Pump
    tmarch wrote: »
    My advice would be to drill another well with casing and screen then install a pump that is designed to pump whatever you may need now and in the future. A small expense for having water for livestock and possibly your personal use in the event of a failure at you other well if you have another well. Without knowing more that's a suggestion.

    And then, (or just using your existing well) there plenty of low volume, somewhat inexpensive, submerged well pumps that will run directly from solar panels without the need for a controller. Its simple, the sun comes out, water starts pumping, more sun, more water, less sun, less water. Most are 1-5 gallons per minute which guessing 6 solar hours per day would mean even at 1gpm you would end up with a tub full of 360gallons of water each day and at 5gpm you'd get 1800gallons.

    our "well guy" here likely know one that would work well for you.
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • vtmapsvtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Old Virginia Shallow Well Pump
    olneyotter wrote: »
    I have heard about 12v and 24v DC systems with Solar Charging systems, but have also heard that they can't lift 20' of head. Is this true? What set up makes the most sense while not breaking my bank?

    Welcome to the forum,

    You probably have several options. I need to know more about the well and your climate to recommend anything. How deep is the well? What is its recharge rate? Do you need to use this year round, or just for grazing season? Will you be using it in freezing temperatures?

    I suspect that you will be heading for a solar-direct slow pump. Do you need to conserve water? If so, you will want some sort of shut-off system, otherwise you can just let it overflow the tank when the sun shines.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • olneyotterolneyotter Registered Users Posts: 4
    Re: Old Virginia Shallow Well Pump
    vtmaps wrote: »
    Welcome to the forum,

    You probably have several options. I need to know more about the well and your climate to recommend anything. How deep is the well? What is its recharge rate? Do you need to use this year round, or just for grazing season? Will you be using it in freezing temperatures?

    I suspect that you will be heading for a solar-direct slow pump. Do you need to conserve water? If so, you will want some sort of shut-off system, otherwise you can just let it overflow the tank when the sun shines.

    --vtMaps

    I thought I had come to the right place and I see that I am correct!

    So, it seems my options are:
    1. Drill another shallow well pump near/next to this one with a larger diameter pipe, or
    2. Find a submersible narrow pump (but have had no luck so far), or
    3. Find a Solar with battery back up either continuous or shut off valve.

    I like Option 1 combined with 3. I can put in a float switch in my water storage tank (I will double stack 2 totes plumbed together to store 550 gallons of water from both the well and water collected from the barn roof). When the top tote is full, the float switch will disable (break the circuit) that powers the solar/battery backup pump on the new well.

    NOW...(ugh).
    1. How do I drill a new shallow well? I am in VA off the Chesapeake (we also raise oysters!) - we rarely freeze hard below 4 inches in the soil. (recent deep freeze excepted).
    2. The soil is not rocky at all. In fact, I have never hit a rock digging a fence post hole. Marine marly clay only after top soil then sand and more bands of clay.
    3. Luckily, even though the treeline blocks the wind, it is on the northeast side of the pasture. Therefore, the pasture or open field faces south by southeast for good solar exposure.
    4. What size pipe should I put in for the well?
    5. What solar/battery/pump equipment should I get (keeping in mind that it will be periodic pumping with shut off when the tanks are full and should only need 100g per day or so)

    Thanks!

    -Otter
  • jcheiljcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: Old Virginia Shallow Well Pump

    Unless I missed something, why are you not able to use a direct-solar pump in your existing well?
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • vtmapsvtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Old Virginia Shallow Well Pump
    jcheil wrote: »
    Unless I missed something, why are you not able to use a direct-solar pump in your existing well?

    I think that Olneyotter thinks that there are no pumps that will fit inside of a 2.5 inch casing. He is wrong.

    I have no time to provide recommendations right now, I will later if someone else doesn't beat me to it.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • jcheiljcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: Old Virginia Shallow Well Pump
    vtmaps wrote: »
    I think that Olneyotter thinks that there are no pumps that will fit inside of a 2.5 inch casing. He is wrong.

    I have no time to provide recommendations right now, I will later if someone else doesn't beat me to it.

    --vtMaps

    That's exactly what I was thinking. I do remember reading about some that were 2.5" and would work perfect for him.
    But that is outside my knowledge base.
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: Old Virginia Shallow Well Pump
    jcheil wrote: »
    That's exactly what I was thinking. I do remember reading about some that were 2.5" and would work perfect for him.
    But that is outside my knowledge base.
    Would that be 2.5 " ID or OD. The answer was, I know how to Google better than some.

    Don't believe everything your read on the internet
  • olneyotterolneyotter Registered Users Posts: 4
    Re: Old Virginia Shallow Well Pump

    The ID on that well head is 2.25".

    I haven't found a submersible that will go down that shaft.

    If there is one, I'd use it.

    If there is a ground level sucker I can use, I'd use it if it can suck the head up plus about 12" into my water tank.

    Solar is what we need with battery backup.

    Thanks!

    -Otter
  • vtmapsvtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Old Virginia Shallow Well Pump
    olneyotter wrote: »
    The ID on that well head is 2.25".

    I haven't found a submersible that will go down that shaft.

    If there is one, I'd use it.

    There are many... have you googled "small diameter submersible water well pumps"?

    Here's one that is available with a solar option:
    http://sunshineworks.com/emergency-well-pump.htm
    http://sunshineworks.com/motorized-hand-pump.htm
    Simple Pump can be installed in a 2-inch well, and can sit alongside most conventional submersible electric pumps in a 4-inch or larger well as a manual backup.

    There are also "air" pumps that use pressurized air to bring the water out of a narrow well. I know very little about them.

    Finally, there are a bunch of narrow submersible pumps that are primarily used for monitoring purposes... the ones I found are not very durable... only a few hundred hours of lifetime... but that is plenty for periodically pumping a small sample of water.

    btw, Lehman's Hardware has a good selection of pumps similar to the sunshineworks pump, but I do not see a motorized drive for their pumps.

    --vtMaps

    edit:
    http://www.geotechnical.net/rediflo-2-pump.shtml
    http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?4702
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: Old Virginia Shallow Well Pump
    vtmaps wrote: »
    There are many... have you googled "small diameter submersible water well pumps"?

    Here's one that is available with a solar option:
    http://sunshineworks.com/emergency-well-pump.htm
    http://sunshineworks.com/motorized-hand-pump.htm

    The Simple Pump will fit in almost
    all wells with a 4 inch or larger casing, even if you have a pitless adapter.
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: Old Virginia Shallow Well Pump

    I don't think there is such a submersible pump, at least that I am aware of. If you want to try to build something ?? It looks like you need 40' of lift or so, maybe more than this can do.

    I'd build a ejector venturi pump. I think you'd be able to take a 1 " piece of copper pipe , maybe 6-10" long and a 3/8" or 1/2, 180 ° copper tube turn and a 3/4" x 1" reducer and braze the tube turn into the side of 1" pipe and the reducer for your 3/4 " pipe and 1/2 or 3/8" for the lift . You'll then insert both pipes down the well with the ejector. The pump on the surface supply the lift and suction for the well is in the copper pipe below the water level. I am not sure if you'd need a foot valve or not, you'd have to test it.

    You'd have to set the pump up so it would have a water source from the trough or a separate tank that would refill as the pump was running.

    Here is a pump that would work, I think. 5.5 gpm + 12 V or 24V

    http://www.energybay.org/aquatec-550-pressure-pump-24vdc

    I have no clue if it would work, never tried it with that much head. The solar is easy to work out, a panel, controller and a battery and some kind of float switch.
  • vtmapsvtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Old Virginia Shallow Well Pump
    The Simple Pump will fit in almost
    all wells with a 4 inch or larger casing, even if you have a pitless adapter.

    And if there is no pitless adapter the pump will fit inside a 2 inch diameter well.

    More info on this page:
    http://sunshineworks.com/stainless-steel-deep-well-hand-pump.htm
    Simple Pump can be installed in a 2-inch well, and can sit alongside most conventional submersible electric pumps in a 4-inch or larger well as a manual backup.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: Old Virginia Shallow Well Pump
    vtmaps wrote: »
    And if there is no pitless adapter the pump will fit inside a 2 inch diameter well.

    More info on this page:
    http://sunshineworks.com/stainless-steel-deep-well-hand-pump.htm


    --vtMaps
    Thank You for a different Link, this one is a little more clear.
  • Texas WellmanTexas Wellman Solar Expert Posts: 153 ✭✭
    Re: Old Virginia Shallow Well Pump

    Most likely you either have a 2" well or perhaps a 3" well.

    I have battled this issue before. There isn't a good solution to a solar powered 2" well. There are a few things out there that you can try but none are a good solution. Best advise is to have a real 4" well installed and install a quality 4" or 3" submersible pump.

    Good luck.
  • olneyotterolneyotter Registered Users Posts: 4
    Re: Old Virginia Shallow Well Pump

    Thank you folks.

    From what I have read and Googled - the best move (for a long term solution unless I want a "sampling pump") is to bore a bigger diameter well. For those who said there are plenty of 12 or 24v submersible pumps for a pipe measureing 2.25" diameter, I wish you the best of luck finding them. They don'exist (unless it is a small temporary duty pump or sampling pump).

    There are some surface pumps that can be deployed, but they max out at 26' of suction. That is just about where my well water is from the surface, so that won't be a long-term solution either.

    If anyone has a specific recommendation or link for either a submersible pump or a surface pump, either running at 12 or 24v, as Ross Perot said, "I'm all ears".

    Thanks!
  • vtmapsvtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Old Virginia Shallow Well Pump
    olneyotter wrote: »
    If anyone has a specific recommendation or link for either a submersible pump or a surface pump, either running at 12 or 24v, as Ross Perot said, "I'm all ears".

    I thought I provided such a link in post #13 in this thread. Why is the SimplePump not satisfactory for your needs? --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,025 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Old Virginia Shallow Well Pump

    also something called an "Air Lift Pump" that uses bubbles to get the water moving uphill. about all I know about them.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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