Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries

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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #32
    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries
    DavidOH wrote: »
    Have you looked at Nickel-Iron ? http://ironedison.com/
    http://ironedison.com/renewable-energy-batteries

    I have looked at them in the past and discovered that round trip efficiencies are lower than lead acid and self discharge rates are higher. Also, they are very expensive!
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #33
    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries
    northerner wrote: »
    I think that will be surpassed with other technologies that will be here sooner rather than later. The day will come when a battery bank will last a lifetime!

    Whose lifetime? Yours ... or what's left of mine? :p
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  • mtdoc
    mtdoc Solar Expert Posts: 600 ✭✭
    #34
    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries
    northerner wrote: »
    Originally, I had thought price of LiFePo4 were high due to the cost of lithium and relatively short supply, However, I'm hearing that the real reason is due to all the control electronics required to keep them safe. Even if price does come down, what will the potential cycle life be? And will they be cost competitive with lead acid?

    The cost of a LiFePO4 bank including battery management system is about 2X FLA or 1.5 X AGM giving equivalent energy availablity (greater DOD = smaller bank needed). 100% DOD cycle life (until 80% of original capacity) is 2000- 7000 cycles.
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #35
    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries
    DavidOH wrote: »
    Have you looked at Nickel-Iron ? http://ironedison.com/
    http://ironedison.com/renewable-energy-batteries

    Yes, using them, playing Gunga Din to them every 60 days. And they are not as efficient as PbH2So4. And cost a lot,
    and the actual cycle count from the Mfg is not as high as the original edison cells. And I'm dreading the day in 2 years
    when I have to mix another 100 gallons of lye, and dump out each 80# cell and refill. But other than that, they work.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #36
    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries

    OK no one likes the word Cadmium, but what about wet NiCd cells.

    I have a set of 30 yr old ones that still have a long life ahead of them, and YES I too have to mix up a batch of lye to change my electrolyte... as it is getting tired. Advantage? the metal is never consumed in the charge/discharge process.
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • Ralph Day
    Ralph Day Solar Expert Posts: 1,022 ✭✭✭✭
    #37
    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries

    How do you dispose of the old electrolyte? Can you neutralize it so it's not considered hazardous waste?

    Ralph
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  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    #38
    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries
    northerner wrote: »
    I think that will be surpassed with other technologies that will be here sooner rather than later. The day will come when a battery bank will last a lifetime, and at the same time give a good return on investment!
    I hope you are right but I don't know if it's a realistic expectation. I cannae rewrite the laws of physics, cap'n! :D
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #39
    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries

    According to the makers rep when depleted it is still just a Lye solution and can be neutralized with any acid, , with caution as always, he suggested Vinegar as it is weak and available. It becomes a potassium fertilizer for the lawn.

    I am more interested in FLOW batteries, also out in the commercial field. http://redflow.com/

    Hmmm, looks like I have to see what is new on their site as they have redesigned it and added some more info.
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • jeffkruse
    jeffkruse Solar Expert Posts: 205 ✭✭✭
    #40
    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries
    northerner wrote: »
    I have no relationship with Aquion and I apologize if I come across that way. I'm just looking for an alternative to lead acid batteries as the title implies, which are far less than perfect for storing energy. I'm sure many others are looking for a better alternative as well, and I'm sharing info about a product that soon will be available.

    Cariboocoot: is it forbidden to point out manufacturers of products on this site? If so I will stop immediately and no hard feelings. I have to say, I see plenty of conversation about other products and manufacturers on this site.

    I appreciate Cariboocoots concerns about northerners posts, kudos for all your time spent moderating. However, I believe northerner is just excited about this new battery as would I be. I hope they are successful. I would like to continue hearing about new developments with it.
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #41
    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries
    westbranch wrote: »
    I am more interested in FLOW batteries, also out in the commercial field. http://redflow.com/

    Hmmm, looks like I have to see what is new on their site as they have redesigned it and added some more info.

    I agree that flow batteries are another viable option. They do offer some significant advantages over other battery types. One slight downside is the energy efficiency isn't quite as good as the aquious ion battery I pointed out. They list it as 75% DC to DC return. Perhaps that could be improved by the company over time?
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  • karrak
    karrak Solar Expert Posts: 326 ✭✭✭✭
    #42
    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    In one of the recent threads, karrak said he maintains them without electronics.

    I just want to add that I do the battery balancing for my system manually with no special electronics and only some resistors and a variable voltage/current power supply, but for the safety of the batteries I do have some special electronics. The details can be found in this post http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?19472-Precautions-to-take-with-LiFePO4-batteries&p=152783&highlight=precautions#post152783

    I think it is absolutely essential to have some means to monitor the individual cell voltages and to take action if any cell goes out of the safe voltage range of 3.6 to 2.8 volts. With enough electronics knowledge, for less than $200 you can put together such a system using off the shelf parts. Battery balancing can be done manually or for less than $200 in parts you can put together an automatic system.
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    Some advertize 2000 cycles at 80% DoD.

    The Winston batteries I am using http://en.winston-battery.com/index.php/products/power-battery/item/wb-lyp160aha?category_id=176 give a figure of >3000 cycles @ 80%DOD and >5000 cycles @ 70%DOD
    Off-Grid with LFP (LiFePO4) battery, battery Installed April 2013
    32x90Ah Winston cells 2p16s (48V), MPP Solar PIP5048MS 5kW Inverter/80A MPPT controller/60A charger, 1900W of Solar Panels
    modified BMS based on TI bq769x0 cell monitors.
    Homemade overall system monitoring and power management  https://github.com/simat/BatteryMonitor
     

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  • halfcrazy
    halfcrazy Solar Expert Posts: 720 ✭✭✭
    #43
    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    You can speak to salesmen who will sell you bridges and swamps too. Means nothing until they can deliver.

    Not to stir the pot but these are REAL batteries. I have been Alpha testing them for over 2 years. They show LOTS of promise. I am very excited about the lack of self discharge as well as the tolerance to being drug almost completely empty. I can not speak a lot on the exact specifics as I am under NDA with Aquion but I can say I have a Real production pack here to play with and I am suitably impressed.

    What I would suggest Cariboocoot is if you are so sure they are fly by night or a company looking to scam customers is you give them a call and ask for Eric, he will be happy to spend all the time you want explaining them to you.

    Ryan
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #44
    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries
    halfcrazy wrote: »
    Not to stir the pot but these are REAL batteries. I have been Alpha testing them for over 2 years. They show LOTS of promise. I am very excited about the lack of self discharge as well as the tolerance to being drug almost completely empty. I can not speak a lot on the exact specifics as I am under NDA with Aquion but I can say I have a Real production pack here to play with and I am suitably impressed.

    What I would suggest Cariboocoot is if you are so sure they are fly by night or a company looking to scam customers is you give them a call and ask for Eric, he will be happy to spend all the time you want explaining them to you.

    Ryan

    I did not say they were a fly-by-night company or a scam. Nor did I say I didn't understand them.

    I have seen many products that "show lots of promise" over many years, but until a product is at the retail stage one should not get one's hopes up because a lot of products have disappeared before making it to the practical consumer level.
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  • karrak
    karrak Solar Expert Posts: 326 ✭✭✭✭
    #45
    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries
    northerner wrote: »
    Originally, I had thought price of LiFePo4 were high due to the cost of lithium and relatively short supply, However, I'm hearing that the real reason is due to all the control electronics required to keep them safe. Even if price does come down, what will the potential cycle life be? And will they be cost competitive with lead acid?

    I have done a costing on the battery storage costs per kWh in my installation using the battery manufacturer's specs of a life of >5000 cycles @ 70%DOD. It comes out at ~$0.14 per kWh.

    The calculations are:
    I have 360Ah of LiFePO4 batteries at a nominal voltage of 26 volts [3.25*8]. NominalCapacity 9.360kWh. Cost $4118 in Australian $, at the time I bought them AU$1~US$1

    TotalEnergyStoredDuringTheirLifetime = NominalCapacity * #ofCycles * CycleDepth * Efficiency = 9.360*5000*0.7*0.95 = 31,122 kWh

    Cost/kWh = (CostOfBatteries + SpecialElectronics)/TotalEnergyStoredDuringThierLifetime = ($4118+$300)/31,122 ~$0.15/kWh

    With our average energy usage it would take us 24 years to use this much electricity. I would be over the moon if the batteries last this long but even if I take a pessimistic view and there is calendar aging of the batteries that will limit their life to say 12 years, i still get what i think is a respectable $0.30/kWh.

    Interestingly, if the batteries do have a limited calendar life I would be better off doing deeper charge/discharge cycles, the opposite to Lead Acid batteries.

    Another saving I have made is that before getting the LiFePO4 batteries I was using some elderly NiCd batteries with an efficiency of around 70%-75%. With these batteries the six solar panels i have was only just supplying enough energy and i was about to purchase two more panels. With the new batteries I have not needed to get the extra panels.
    Off-Grid with LFP (LiFePO4) battery, battery Installed April 2013
    32x90Ah Winston cells 2p16s (48V), MPP Solar PIP5048MS 5kW Inverter/80A MPPT controller/60A charger, 1900W of Solar Panels
    modified BMS based on TI bq769x0 cell monitors.
    Homemade overall system monitoring and power management  https://github.com/simat/BatteryMonitor
     

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  • Buoug
    Buoug Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭
    #46
    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries

    http://www.aquionenergy.com/technology/


    Has anyone heard anything more about these batteries? I won't be doing hardcore solar for about 6-8 yrs but I'm curious about better storage possibilites!
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #47
    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries
    Buoug wrote: »
    http://www.aquionenergy.com/technology/


    Has anyone heard anything more about these batteries? I won't be doing hardcore solar for about 6-8 yrs but I'm curious about better storage possibilites!
    They are " Supposed " to be shipping them in the near future, we'll know once the rock hit's the road. For RE there lot's of things that goes into the perimeters that a battery must maintain, the one's that comes to mind is Voltage and Amperage over time, thats yet to be proven real life.
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  • newl
    newl Solar Expert Posts: 53 ✭✭✭✭
    #48
    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries

    Shipping in 2014 once the manufacturing facility is up to speed is what I read and saw in the videos. I'm quite curious about the solution and am looking forward to seeing if/how it pans out in the real world outside of a shipping container or university.
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #49
    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries

    The problem with all these technology's is, all the RE equipment is built for nominal Voltages. A 48 V nominal bank has a standing voltage of 50.3 V. 48 V is considered to be about 50 % dod. Any voltage or current sag below 48 v the efficiency of the inverter drops like a rock. It doesn't matter if you can take the DOD to 20 % or not if the voltage and current is not on the same curve as a lead acid battery. Even Forklift batteries have the same problem. In the forklift world they don't care if the voltage drops to 44 volts, in our world it's bad news. It is even worse in 12-24 Volt, in 12 V you only have a .7 volts between 100 % and 50 %.
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  • Buoug
    Buoug Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭
    #50
    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    The problem with all these technology's is, all the RE equipment is built for nominal Voltages. A 48 V nominal bank has a standing voltage of 50.3 V. 48 V is considered to be about 50 % dod. Any voltage or current sag below 48 v the efficiency of the inverter drops like a rock. It doesn't matter if you can take the DOD to 20 % or not if the voltage and current is not on the same curve as a lead acid battery. Even Forklift batteries have the same problem. In the forklift world they don't care if the voltage drops to 44 volts, in our world it's bad news. It is even worse in 12-24 Volt, in 12 V you only have a .7 volts between 100 % and 50 %.

    I won't be doing anything hard core into solar for about 6-8 yrs. So this was more of attempt to keep it up top and to see if anything new on them. I really hope in 5 yrs or so they have a really good battery for solar. I will however get a really small project going so I learn before i try and run :)
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #51
    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    The problem with all these technology's is, all the RE equipment is built for nominal Voltages. A 48 V nominal bank has a standing voltage of 50.3 V. 48 V is considered to be about 50 % dod. Any voltage or current sag below 48 v the efficiency of the inverter drops like a rock. It doesn't matter if you can take the DOD to 20 % or not if the voltage and current is not on the same curve as a lead acid battery. Even Forklift batteries have the same problem. In the forklift world they don't care if the voltage drops to 44 volts, in our world it's bad news. It is even worse in 12-24 Volt, in 12 V you only have a .7 volts between 100 % and 50 %.

    You can download test results from the Aquion site. Graphical data shows that voltage swings from their stacks are not excessive throughout their range. It appears that the benefits from these stacks, according to posted test results, will far out weigh the problems with lead acid batteries.
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #52
    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries
    northerner wrote: »
    You can download test results from the Aquion site. Graphical data shows that voltage swings from their stacks are not excessive throughout their range. It appears that the benefits from these stacks, according to posted test results, will far out weigh the problems with lead acid batteries.
    So you say, Time will tell and the proof will be in their success. Just the size alone will disqualify them for most people. I didn't know there was a problem with lead Acid batteries, I must have missed that one for the last 50 years.
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  • Buoug
    Buoug Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭
    #53
    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    So you say, Time will tell and the proof will be in their success. Just the size alone will disqualify them for most people. I didn't know there was a problem with lead Acid batteries, I must have missed that one for the last 50 years.

    I have not done solar or used batteries other than what a "normal" person would but my one thing that turns me off about solar power is the problem where you have to constantly monitor your battery. What i mean by this is that there are very few batteries that allow you to dip below 50% so it's a constant monitor. I think I'm personally looking for a battery that can dip below and not completely destroy it. I really hate how you have to buy twice the power (for lead acid) holding capability just to get what you need in power for use. I am hoping that in 5 years when I actually get into it they will have a decent battery that can go below 50% and doesnt cost an arm and leg to obtain. Again I'm a noob and jsut throwing my two cents in. :)
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  • halfcrazy
    halfcrazy Solar Expert Posts: 720 ✭✭✭
    #54
    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries
    newl wrote: »
    Shipping in 2014 once the manufacturing facility is up to speed is what I read and saw in the videos. I'm quite curious about the solution and am looking forward to seeing if/how it pans out in the real world outside of a shipping container or university.

    I can say I have been using them in the "Real World". They work just fine. They have a very low self discharge and the new stacks are built around a normal Nominal voltage window. Yes they are going to be slightly bigger than the comparable lead acid battery but for the benefits I see that as acceptable. Those places that are severely hurting for space and need extreme energy density willl go with Lithium. But I my self am not interested in having a big bank of Lithium batteries in my house.

    Time will truly tell but if the price point can be kept reasonable I think these guys have a good chance of being real busy

    Ryan
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #55
    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries
    halfcrazy wrote: »
    I can say I have been using them in the "Real World". They work just fine. They have a very low self discharge and the new stacks are built around a normal Nominal voltage window. Yes they are going to be slightly bigger than the comparable lead acid battery but for the benefits I see that as acceptable. Those places that are severely hurting for space and need extreme energy density willl go with Lithium. But I my self am not interested in having a big bank of Lithium batteries in my house.

    Time will truly tell but if the price point can be kept reasonable I think these guys have a good chance of being real busy

    Ryan
    Ok, I'll bite, 1.5 KW per stack at what voltage ??
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  • halfcrazy
    halfcrazy Solar Expert Posts: 720 ✭✭✭
    #56
    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries

    Well Watts are Watts so any voltage. The new stacks are configurable for 12, 24 or 48v nominal. I think they have around 2Kwh of usable energy storage. I have not seen the new stack yet but it is basically the same thing I am playing with just one more cell.
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #57
    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries
    halfcrazy wrote: »
    Well Watts are Watts so any voltage. The new stacks are configurable for 12, 24 or 48v nominal. I think they have around 2Kwh of usable energy storage. I have not seen the new stack yet but it is basically the same thing I am playing with just one more cell.
    Take us a picture of it in action. I am not a naysayer, but I'v been down this road to many times. Half of what you see is from the venture capitalists looking for Investor's, when the money dries up, them along with the General Partners head for the door.
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  • halfcrazy
    halfcrazy Solar Expert Posts: 720 ✭✭✭
    #58
    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries

    Well I am not sure if the NDA I signed allows me to take pictures. I have no dog in this fight what so ever. I stand to make 0 dollars from this company no matter what. I have nothing to prove I was just simply trying to offer one Alpha/Beta testers opinion.

    Ryan
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  • halfcrazy
    halfcrazy Solar Expert Posts: 720 ✭✭✭
    #59
    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries

    Not sure I understand what a picture would show anyway? Are you questioning if I actually have them in my possession?
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #60
    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries
    halfcrazy wrote: »
    Well I am not sure if the NDA I signed allows me to take pictures. I have no dog in this fight what so ever. I stand to make 0 dollars from this company no matter what. I have nothing to prove I was just simply trying to offer one Alpha/Beta testers opinion.

    Ryan
    I figured that there was a nondisclosure agreement. Thats how it works.
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #61
    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries
    halfcrazy wrote: »
    Not sure I understand what a picture would show anyway? Are you questioning if I actually have them in my possession?
    Why would I think that ??
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