Generator on Propane/NG Issue

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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #62
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    Re: Generator on Propane/NG Issue
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    You have 30kWh of batteries. If they're 50% discharged, you're lacking 15kWh. Even if your batteries accept it all evenly (no absorptions and all that time consuming stuff) and everything is 100% efficient, 15kWh/2.4kW = 6 hours 20 minutes. Very fast indeed.

    I have a feeling my batteries are somewhat sulfated as I don't seem to have nearly that capacity?
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #63
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    Re: Generator on Propane/NG Issue

    running a 3Kw diesel at 1400' elevation, via my inverters AC2 input, I'm getting 35A charging into a 48V (58V charge - 2030watts) bank, so that's about 70a into a 24V bank. And I'm running a few small loads at the same time too.
    Just a benchmark for your consideration.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #64
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    Re: Generator on Propane/NG Issue
    northerner wrote: »
    I have a feeling my batteries are somewhat sulfated as I don't seem to have nearly that capacity?

    With 5kWh loads, you should be able to live almost 3 whole days until your batteries are 50% discharged, at which point the voltage should be slightly below 24V with a small load.
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #65
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    Re: Generator on Propane/NG Issue
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    With 5kWh loads, you should be able to live almost 3 whole days until your batteries are 50% discharged, at which point the voltage should be slightly below 24V with a small load.

    Closer to 2 days to 50% I would estimate.
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #66
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    Re: Generator on Propane/NG Issue
    northerner wrote: »
    Closer to 2 days to 50% I would estimate.

    You could underestimate the loads and or inverter efficiency. Do you have a meter to measure the total loads over the day?

    If loads are correct at 5kWh then your battery capacity may be less than the listed value. IFIAK, if you do get full SG after equalization then the batteries cannot be sulphated.
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #67
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    Re: Generator on Propane/NG Issue

    Northern, take a look at this chart , It comes from Trojan in post # 14, as I recall your batteries are fairly new.

    http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?21731-battery-your-thoughts-help
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #68
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    Re: Generator on Propane/NG Issue
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    You could underestimate the loads and or inverter efficiency. Do you have a meter to measure the total loads over the day?

    If loads are correct at 5kWh then your battery capacity may be less than the listed value. IFIAK, if you do get full SG after equalization then the batteries cannot be sulphated.

    I measure my loads with an EKM meter which is very accurate, so no issue there. I'm not getting full SG, so I know they are sulphated to some extent. Problem came about earlier on after I purchased the 1st and 2nd banks, as I was undercharging for a period of time. I can get the SG's up to between 1.235 and 1.25 and is a real struggle to get them there!
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #69
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    Re: Generator on Propane/NG Issue
    northerner wrote: »
    I can get the SG's up to between 1.235 and 1.25 and is a real struggle to get them there!

    What is the spec - 1.275?

    I had the same issue with SG, but I never lacked capacity. Have you tried equalizing them for a long period of time?
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #70
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    Re: Generator on Propane/NG Issue
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    What is the spec - 1.275?

    I had the same issue with SG, but I never lacked capacity. Have you tried equalizing them for a long period of time?

    Spec for the L16 HC is 1.280. I have tried equalizing them for a long period, but can only get them so high.
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #71
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    Re: Generator on Propane/NG Issue
    northerner wrote: »
    Spec for the L16 HC is 1.280. I have tried equalizing them for a long period, but can only get them so high.
    Sounds like you already know why you have limited capacity, until your ready do a complete EQ and clean the pores in the lead, you'll always have low capacity and even that will diminish over time. The higher the SG's go the slower the rise you'll get for the time it takes.
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #72
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    Re: Generator on Propane/NG Issue
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    Sounds like you already know why you have limited capacity, until your ready do a complete EQ and clean the pores in the lead, you'll always have low capacity and even that will diminish over time. The higher the SG's go the slower the rise you'll get for the time it takes.

    I think it will take numerous long EQ's to get them back. I did notice that it's best to do the EQ one string at a time for best results.
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #73
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    Re: Generator on Propane/NG Issue
    northerner wrote: »
    I think it will take numerous long EQ's to get them back. I did notice that it's best to do the EQ one string at a time for best results.
    It probably will, they will rise overtime. Make sure your Hydrometer readings are being temperature corrected and watch the temperature of the batteries, you'll do fine. Just keep on hammering them. Did you ever get the SG's up when you commissioned them ??
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #74
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    Re: Generator on Propane/NG Issue
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    It probably will, they will rise overtime. Make sure your Hydrometer readings are being temperature corrected and watch the temperature of the batteries, you'll do fine. Just keep on hammering them. Did you ever get the SG's up when you commissioned them ??

    No commissioning done, that was the problem. My bad.
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #75
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    Re: Generator on Propane/NG Issue
    northerner wrote: »
    No commissioning done, that was the problem. My bad.
    Work up a plan and stick to it until they come up. It is very hard to do when you are using them, because you go forward and then back. If you had clear case batteries it is a process worth watching. First as the plates shed the Surface sulfate the electrolyte will become cloudy, then clear up as the sulfate is re-combined and the lead dioxide settles out, but the SG's will still be low. As the pores of the lead begin to clean the sulfate out the SG's slowly will begin to rise until they top out.
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  • jcheil
    jcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    #76
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    Re: Generator on Propane/NG Issue
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    Work up a plan and stick to it until they come up. It is very hard to do when you are using them, because you go forward and then back. If you had clear case batteries it is a process worth watching. First as the plates shed the Surface sulfate the electrolyte will become cloudy, then clear up as the sulfate is re-combined and the lead dioxide settles out, but the SG's will still be low. As the pores of the lead begin to clean the sulfate out the SG's slowly will begin to rise until they top out.

    Question: If the electrolyte is cloudy, then would that be a sign that one would still need to continue with an EQ until it becomes "clear"? Just as general visual representation only, I know SG would be the proper test.

    Asking because my neighbor has a 2 batteries out of 12 that always seem to be cloudy and the rest clear. And if I recall, those 2 SG are usually low compared to the rest.
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #77
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    Re: Generator on Propane/NG Issue
    jcheil wrote: »
    Question: If the electrolyte is cloudy, then would that be a sign that one would still need to continue with an EQ until it becomes "clear"? Just as general visual representation only, I know SG would be the proper test.

    Asking because my neighbor has a 2 batteries out of 12 that always seem to be cloudy and the rest clear. And if I recall, those 2 SG are usually low compared to the rest.
    Yes, it will clear up, but the SG's will still be low. If it clears and the SG's are where they should be, then they won't raise anymore. Also different batteries have different plate composition, some I see the electrolyte look's real dark ( ones tagged Pure lead ). I am NO expert, I just know what I see and the reaction. I have only had a couple set's of clear case to watch over the years.

    Those two, I would separate and work on alone, if didn't want to subject to whole bank to long Equalization Voltage if you have the ability.
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  • jcheil
    jcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    #78
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    Re: Generator on Propane/NG Issue
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    Yes, it will clear up, but the SG's will still be low. If it clears and the SG's are where they should be, then they won't raise anymore.

    Those two, I would separate and work on alone, if didn't want to subject to whole bank to long Equalization Voltage if you have the ability.

    Awesome, thanks so much.
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #79
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    Re: Generator on Propane/NG Issue

    Starting my Yamaha generator on natural gas in cold weather has been smoother than the smaller Honda genset I was using previously. It starts almost right away at temps around -23C and no stalling issues afterwards. I also observed that the Honda had the same stalling issues even when running on gasoline in cold weather. The Yamaha however, doesn't seem to like temps below -30C. It cranks over fairly quick, and just when you thing it is about to fire, stalls out. One thing I need to do yet is adjust the spark plug gap from about (.028 inches for gasoline) down to about (.020 inches for NG) A smaller gap will produce a hotter spark, and NG has a higher ignition temperature than gasoline. I may also have to look at preheating the shelter with a small heater prior to starting when temps are extremely low.
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  • Ralph Day
    Ralph Day Solar Expert Posts: 1,019 ✭✭✭✭
    #80
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    Re: Generator on Propane/NG Issue

    One of those propane radiant heaters that runs off camping cylinders (or bbq bottles) might be good to heat your enclosure with. I used one when service was required on my 10kw diesel set...burned through a 20 pound tank of propane overnight, but the 8x12' shed was warm to work in the next day. -25C was the overnight temp. Shed has 6" fibreglass batt insulation, for noise...lots of airflow once the generator is running due to the barn extractor fan and open vents at the shed's other end.

    I have an inline block heater on the generator, wired from the house on a bathroom fan type clock timer. 30 minutes heat time and it starts well at any temperature. If you can sacrifice the battery power how about an electric forced air fan heater pointed at the generator for 1/2 hour or more? Can you afford the power before the generator needs to run? I usually plan those amp hours in before a generator run if it needs pre-heat.

    I recall the flying club's engine pre-heater from the '70's. It was on a cart, 12 volt battery and fan, some ducting and a propane torch. Fire it up with the ducting poked in the front of the engine cowling and it pre-heated nicely. The club's insurance company probably wouldn't have approved.

    Ralph
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #81
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    Re: Generator on Propane/NG Issue
    Ralph Day wrote: »
    If you can sacrifice the battery power how about an electric forced air fan heater pointed at the generator for 1/2 hour or more? Can you afford the power before the generator needs to run? I usually plan those amp hours in before a generator run if it needs pre-heat.
    Ralph

    That's what I was thinking is to put in a small fan based electric heater into the shelter. I think a smaller spark plug gap (for natural gas) along with a larger starter battery will also make a big difference. I was able to pull start my generator when around -32C without preheating. Thankfully, we haven't gone below -40C yet this season. I put in 5w30 synthetic oil, but thinking I should have gone with 0w20 for winter.

    I eventually want to automate the whole process so an electric preheater should work well.
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  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    #82
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    Re: Generator on Propane/NG Issue

    Use a radiant heater instead of a convective (fan driven) heater. Then you can aim the heat right on the engine block instead of heating the air around it. I do something similar with my genset with a 100 watt incandescent bulb (90 watts of heat). The bulb hangs in mid-air right in front of the oil cooler and oil filter, and this also heats one side of the engine block.
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
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