Outback 8048 inverter

LOTW · December 2013

Re: Outback 8048 inverter

islandboy43444 wrote: »

yes I am sure , desil is 575 a gallon and gas is 5.40 a gallon we pay 58cents per kwatt to the utility

Just to give you an idea, power from a LP generator at that price will run you roughly 2 dollars per KW/h on average. Something to consider when you do a full design as per the suggestions of others on here.

SolInvictus · December 2013

Re: Outback 8048 inverter

zoneblue wrote: »

... if you wanted to eradicate, (or radically reduce) your propane use, how would you do it?

I relegated all propane use to backup applications. In order over 2 decades:

Propane powered generator replaced by demand side management and more PV panels.
Propane heater replaced with wood stove, improved insulation and passive solar.
Propane for heating water replaced with solar hot water, microwave, wood stove and eventually induction cooktop.
Propane refrigerator/freezer replaced with much more efficient all electric refrigerator/freezer, timer, thermal mass and more PV panels.
Leakage and pilot lights eliminated by switching from 250 gallon propane tank to 5 gallon tank.
Baking with propane replaced by convection microwave oven and the rule of baking only on sunny days when the PV array is outputting maximum power.
Propane stove top replaced with wood stove and induction cooktop.

Every step included demand side management most of which I have not listed. Every substitution reduced my expenses except the last one. 45 gallons of gasoline per year in my vehicle is the one remaining fossil carbon fuel to eliminate.

mike95490 · December 2013

Re: Outback 8048 inverter

Cariboocoot wrote: »

....I would avoid gen support if at all possible for the reasons I've explained before. It works, but it is wasteful and inefficient....

I'll assume that is an opinion, and not a fact. I use it quite judiciously, with a manual start generator, and have configured to load the genset to 90%, what is not running loads, is charging batteries, and when demands lighten up (water tanks full) or sun comes out, I shut the generator down. Last winter, I burned about 30 gal of diesel, which with week long cloudy/rain events, is pretty lightweight compared to what most folks with 100 gl tanks here burn (they have a monthly refill service for their tanks).

mike95490 · December 2013

Re: Outback 8048 inverter

islandboy43444 wrote: »

Cariboocoot what can I do with this system to make it work,I cant return it so I have to make some kind a sense of this.

I'm not Cariboocoot , but here's my ideas.

1) you will need some sort of generator for cloudy times. If you suck your batteries down past 50%, it really starts eating into their lifetime cycles. a few tanks of fuel can save a couple years of battery life.

2) cooking and hot water usage. You will HAVE to learn to load shift. When batteries are nearly full, start cooking, do your laundry, use the hot water, so that the loads run off the sun, not the batteries. Complete your water usage 1 hr before your solar power fades, so the sun reheats the tank, not the batteries.

3) get a solar hot water preheater. Use a heat-pump style water heater, not plain electric coil water heater. You will even get a bit of cooler air out of it. It will need a drain for the condensate.

4) forklift battery - if you can return that other pile of batteries.

5) cold thermal storage - insulated water tank, the chillers cool it when you have sun, and the circulation pump keeps the
house cold from the water tank, not the compressor. Use the water as a "battery". It won't wear out.

6) Change the electric range, to an induction range. Electric ranges waste quite a bit of heat into the air, the stove body and such, and your air conditioner will have to remove that surplus heat. Induction cooking heats only the metal pan. As mentioned before, a convection oven, and a microwave, will shorten cooking times, and reduce the heat load in the house.

More ideas will come to you as you live in and adjust to the house.

Cariboocoot · December 2013

Re: Outback 8048 inverter

mike95490 wrote: »

I'll assume that is an opinion, and not a fact. I use it quite judiciously, with a manual start generator, and have configured to load the genset to 90%, what is not running loads, is charging batteries, and when demands lighten up (water tanks full) or sun comes out, I shut the generator down. Last winter, I burned about 30 gal of diesel, which with week long cloudy/rain events, is pretty lightweight compared to what most folks with 100 gl tanks here burn (they have a monthly refill service for their tanks).

That is how I use my gen: as-needed only.

"Generator support" assumes the generator will be an integral part of the electrical supply; auto-start and all. It's something to be avoided if possible, because auto-start is no place near as good at judging whether or not you really should be using the generator as you are. Or even me.

It's a bit peculiar that there are current two threads running which are diametric on this: one advocating total elimination of the use of fossil fuels and another advocating that they be used as a regular part of electricity generating! Which is it, folks? Make up your minds!

The truth is you have to adapt the possibilities to your application: no two systems are ever alike.

mtdoc · December 2013

Re: Outback 8048 inverter

Cariboocoot wrote: »

That is how I use my gen: as-needed only.

"Generator support" assumes the generator will be an integral part of the electrical supply; auto-start and all.
.

'Coot, I disagree. Just because one vocal forum member uses it this way does not mean that is "the" way to use generator support.

When I have an extended power outage I use it with my non auto-start eu2000i only only as needed - just as you use your generator off grid.

So - if not enough sun to fully charge my batteries I can hook up my eu2000i and with gen support on my GVFX can charge batteries, run baseline house loads and let Gen support kick in when my septic pump comes on.

If it wasn't for gen support I'd have to run my gas guzzlin,' noisy as hell, 7000 watt Troy Built gen just to support the occasional, short duration high load- very inefficient!

Cariboocoot · December 2013

Re: Outback 8048 inverter

That would be generator back-up, which is standard off-grid practice. The fact it is connected to the GVFX and used in conjunction with it isn't much different than using it with a non-GT inverter to charge batteries. I can and do use mine this way and if a heavy load comes on the inverter drops the gen and takes over, and then gen resumes supplying power if and when it can. A GTI cannot supply power and charge at the same time either.

Again most off-gridders do not rely on their generator to supply a significant amount of power. It is a back-up charging source and power for occasional heavy loads.

mtdoc · December 2013

Re: Outback 8048 inverter

Cariboocoot wrote: »

That would be generator back-up, which is standard off-grid practice. The fact it is connected to the GVFX and used in conjunction with it isn't much different than using it with a non-GT inverter to charge batteries. I can and do use mine this way and if a heavy load comes on the inverter drops the gen and takes over, and then gen resumes supplying power if and when it can. A GTI cannot supply power and charge at the same time either.
.

Nope. In my case it never drops the generator - which allows continuous running of my generator and charging for extended periods with minimal battery discharge. Its not just the short, very high load of my septic pump that it allows. With my eu2000i charging at say 10 amps (120V) AC it has another 5 amps or so available for baseline household loads but anytime we use too many lights,etc or run a load of laundry or dishes that is exceeded and gen support kicks in.

Bottom line is without generator support - i would have to run a larger, very fuel innefficient generator in my setup.

I believe blackcherry also uses gen support on an outback inverter in a similar way - as needed without any generator autostart.

Cariboocoot · December 2013

Re: Outback 8048 inverter

mtdoc wrote: »

Nope. In my case it never drops the generator - which allows continuous running of my generator and charging for extended periods with minimal battery discharge. Its not just the short, very high load of my septic pump that it allows. With my eu2000i charging at say 10 amps (120V) AC it has another 5 amps or so available for baseline household loads but anytime we use too many lights,etc or run a load of laundry or dishes that is exceeded and gen support kicks in.

Bottom line is without generator support - i would have to run a larger, very fuel innefficient generator in my setup.

I believe blackcherry also uses gen support on an outback inverter in a similar way - as needed without any generator autostart.

Yours does not drop the gen because it is a GVFX: a grid-tie inverter meant to maintain a bidirectional connection with an external AC source. When your inverter is supporting loads too heavy for the generator it is of course not charging the batteries, so in that respect the operation is the same. The difference is that the VFX will drop the gen completely, meaning loads can not draw from generator and inverter simultaneously.

If your inverter can handle those occasional large loads on its own then you would not need a larger generator. That is the way I designed my system: inverter supplies power most of the time and for occasional heavy loads, panels supply most of the charging, generator is back-up charging only (and concurrently supplies average loads while charging).

Half of your argument is about the wiring rather than the usage.

mike95490 · December 2013

Re: Outback 8048 inverter

mtdoc wrote: »

Nope. In my case it never drops the generator - which allows continuous running of my generator and charging for extended periods with minimal battery discharge. Its not just the short, very high load of my septic pump that it allows. With my eu2000i charging at say 10 amps (120V) AC it has another 5 amps or so available for baseline household loads but anytime we use too many lights,etc or run a load of laundry or dishes that is exceeded and gen support kicks in.

Bottom line is without generator support - i would have to run a larger, very fuel innefficient generator in my setup.

I believe blackcherry also uses gen support on an outback inverter in a similar way - as needed without any generator autostart.

This is exactly the way I use Generator support with my XW-6048. The inverter syncs to the generator, AND charges. Any big loads, it throttles back off charging, and huge starting surges, it assists the generator. Otherwise, if just not using GenSup, the inverter does drop the generator if a beefy load comes along, and runs off battery, while it re-qualifys the generator. It used to unload the generator all the time, and run off batteries, till I understood what GenSup could do for me. Since my base loads only run 150 watts or so, I'm able to do quite a bit of charging off my small generator.

Cariboocoot · December 2013

Re: Outback 8048 inverter

Please note that if the inverter is supply any portion of the load it is doing no charging at all. I'm reiterating this to make sure anyone else reading this thread does not get the impression that it can do both at once. It can not.

The off-grid VFX will also reduce charging to the batteries if loads increase. The main difference between the two is that with a VFX and gen you can not draw power from both simultaneously. With the GVFX you can.

So basically if you have a GVFX 3048 and a 2kW gen you can theoretically supply up to 5kW of power. If this suits your power needs it works. But you should consider this when designing the system: how often and for how long will you need that 5kW? At some point it becomes wise to get a bigger inverter instead of relying on the generator for any significant portion of your power needs.

Remember that generators have a finite life too, and require regular service in that lifetime lest it becomes significantly shorter (says the man with 6000 hours on one gen and 4000 on the other).

Blackcherry04 · December 2013

Re: Outback 8048 inverter

Well, my situation is a little different in the fact I have a GFX 1312 ( 1300 W @ $900 ) and use it with the EU 2000. With them working together I am able to double my capacity and support much larger loads and still have pass through. The Inverter is able to support things that would not only cause it dropout, but also to fault the generator and I'd lose power to the load altogether. It's also allowed me to run the ECO throttle and do maximum charging @ minimum input, while the generator idles along @ 6-7 hrs to the gallon. Since Generator Support doesn't even kick in until the charger is at zero, it's not on all that long, think it like a surge tank or a catcher for a overload. You wouldn't even know it using it unless you just happen to be looking at the Mate. With the EU 2000, it will pick up the surge of say a compressor starting for a few seconds then drops out and picks back up charging.

I could also see the GVFX or the VFX and let the AGS bring a electric start generator online during heavy loads.

Bottom line, Generator Support is just one more tool in the drawer, if you need it. With a larger Inverter and a small generator, it's useful. Like Coot said, there times when a stand alone charger is a better choice. if you don't have it, you probably won't miss it.
.

vtmaps · December 2013

Re: Outback 8048 inverter

Cariboocoot wrote: »

If your inverter can handle those occasional large loads on its own then you would not need a larger generator.

The problem I have with occasional large loads is NOT my inverter, it's my batteries... they cannot sustain a large load for very long without hitting the 24.0 volt battery cutoff. So if the sun's not shining and I need to do an extended run on the table saw, I start the generator.

The problem I have is that if the startup surge is too much for the generator, the generator gets dropped. But other than the startup surge, the generator can handle the load. With the generator running, I should not need to deplete the batteries.

I could solve this problem (dropping the generator) with a bigger generator or bigger batteries. I could solve the problem with a stand alone battery charger (DC coupling). Or I could solve this problem by trading in my VFX for a GVFX and using gen support... especially since my generator is compatible with the GVFX.

Cariboocoot wrote: »

So basically if you have a GVFX 3048 and a 2kW gen you can theoretically supply up to 5kW of power. If this suits your power needs it works.

That does NOT suit my needs... I do not wish to deplete my batteries to supply my load.

Gen support, to me, is about having the smallest possible generator that can power the load without necessarily being able to start the load.

--vtMaps

Blackcherry04 · December 2013

Re: Outback 8048 inverter

vtmaps wrote: »

I could solve this problem (dropping the generator) with a bigger generator or bigger batteries. I could solve the problem with a stand alone battery charger (DC coupling). Or I could solve this problem by trading in my VFX for a GVFX and using gen support... especially since my generator is compatible with the GVFX.

--vtMaps

Since you mentioned it, I know you can send a VFX into Outback and they will convert it to a GVFX or they may just send you the boards. I have no clue what the cost is. Again, you only need it if it fits a certain need. I designed the system I have around it, the same as you would any other piece of equipment and feature.
.

Outback 8048 inverter

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